NCSoft Reports Quarterly Results; CoH Subscribers Down

[Sobelius]

Ditto. I got into my early 20s and advancement just STOPPED. Suddenly killing the same mobs over and over again seemed horrifyingly pointless, and the grind showed through.

I think the basic problem is we all define "grind" and "fun" differently.  I tried CoH after a 2 year hiatus from MMOG's, and I found the levelling to be faster than anything I'd seen in the games I'd played.  Mind you, I'm a MMOG freak:  UO, EQ, DAoC, and AO.  In none of those did I ever level as fast as I did in CoH, though perhaps my memory is flawed.  I am also a comic book nut, so bias might play into it too.

I didn't find the 20's to be a grind, as they flew by so fast as to be ludicrous.  My main, an MA/regen scrapper, is 40 and climbing fast after starting last November, plus I have (way too) many alts in their 20's to boot.

Viva la difference, I guess.

So how many hours have you put into playing? Are we talking catassitude or the 3-4 hours/week some of the rest of us consider 'casual'?

[WindupAtheist]

You might be surprised by this, but having EQ-style classes also has some big advantages, like being much easier to balance. Apparently the reason why Cryptic scuttled their skill-based system late in development was that it turned out to be a balancing nightmare.
On top of that classes facilitate transparant and simple-to-implement group mechanics.

In other words, copying what has come before is easier, because you don't have to try very hard to make it work.

In theory, skill-based systems give unlimited character building options. In reality, that just lasts till the players figure out the "uber builds" and when almost everyone runs around as Tank Mage (UO) or Life Mage (AC) you would be far better off with a class based system ...

The pure melee paladin, archer paladin, paladin/bard, and paladin/samurai can all be quite powerful in UO.  Then there are the less common paladin/mage and necromancer/paladin, the latter of which makes no sense to me, but which a few people I know swear by.  But hey, it spares the devs having to think of anything if they instead just put a big button at character creation that says "PALADIN" on it.   

[Glazius]

You might be surprised by this, but having EQ-style classes also has some big advantages, like being much easier to balance. Apparently the reason why Cryptic scuttled their skill-based system late in development was that it turned out to be a balancing nightmare.
On top of that classes facilitate transparant and simple-to-implement group mechanics.

In other words, copying what has come before is easier, because you don't have to try very hard to make it work.

...

I'm sorry, I must have wandered into some bizarre parallel universe where worth is measured by time investment and not by actual utility. I'll just slip out the back door here...

--GF

[HaemishM]

Windup, if you haven't actually played CoH, you will not understand the differences between archetypes. It may SOUND like typical healer/mage/tank type of combat, but it isn't. All the archtypes feel very different, and I think only the tank and blaster are even close to feeling like ay of the old roles. And there are a number of variations within that. Controller plays like an enchanter in EQ... sort of, but not really. Not to mention that both controllers and defenders can be extremely varied based on the power sets they pick. A storm controller and a fire controller feel VERY different from each other.

If you have played it and didn't see this, you obviously didn't play long enough. I imagine you didn't play long enough because it didn't "trip your trigger." Which is fine, but don't make assinine assertions when you have no idea what you are talking about. Also, stop whoring UO. It had it's moment in the sun, it is not deathly afraid of the sun, for fear that its skin might burn off from exposure.

[Gimmick Acct Sky]

The pure melee paladin, archer paladin, paladin/bard, and paladin/samurai can all be quite powerful in UO.

You may be the only person who talks about UO in the present tense. When we discuss UO, we're talking about the era of Tank Mages, and possibly Dex Monkeys. No paladins, samurai, or other 'class' nonsense that's crapping that game up these days.

The original poster was exactly correct in talking about how people settle (rightly or wrongly) on a single build when given a skill system. I don't mind it, since people actually limit themselves, and you have less to prepare for in pvp, most people will use the same tricks. A more modern but still dated example would be the defense template stackers of SWG.

[shiznitz]

I have to echo Haemish's comments that CoH's archetype system is the best "class" system ever. There are many, many variations within each archetype. I remember lots of nights when my group of 6 had no tank, no healer and we did just fine. kinetics defenders let scrappers and blasters KICK MAJOR ASS!

[stray]

I have to echo Haemish's comments that CoH's archetype system is the best "class" system ever.

Forget Windup -- I'm going to be the resident SB fanboi around here -- THAT's the best class system ever.

/sigh

If only the rest of the game had caught up...

[Rasix]

I might actually have to give SB that. I loved the class system.  I loved the disciplines.   Making new alts and working out new templates was a lot of fun.  Like WoW, every class seemed to be fun to play in it's own way and there was a lot of room for diversity.  I actually made a healer and loved it for the first time ever in a MMORPG.

CoH's felt too restrictive.  Some archetypes just weren't fun at all early on.  I think what CoH needed for me is a /level 30 command. 

[WindupAtheist]

I suppose I could use SWG for an example of a skill-based MMOG system, but then I'd probably have to play it first, and I'm not dropping the cash on a game that doesn't float my boat just to spare myself hearing you monkeys hoot "OMG UO IS TEH OLD" and make comments that would leave anyone who's only familiar with the last half-decade wonder what bloody game you're talking about.  Tank mages?  I joined just before Trammel opened, and tank mages were already on history's scrap heap back then.  But don't worry, it's somehow my fault that you're blabbing on without a fucking clue, because you know "UO GRAFIX SUXOR LOL" and whatnot.

Now to Haemish, the only respondant who bothered to include an actual point:

If someone has invented a class system that doesn't result in thousands and thousands of exactly six different character types, then good.  It's about time.  In an alternate world where things don't suck, that happened at least five years ago, other developers built off of that improved model, and over time the genre evolved into something notably different than what it was to start.  Back here in the evil goatee-having mirror-version of that universe, I'm afraid the CoH lungfish is going to get eaten by the WoW shark before it can ever pass on its mutant genes, and five years from now anyone who still plays an MMOG will only wish their healer/tank/mage was as customizable as a Diablo 2 character.

[Mesozoic]

Well hopefully, with WoW already out and CoH adding PvP and a new expansion, the chance for WoW to kill off CoH has passed.

[schild]

I'll go on the record and say "a fantasy MMOG will never kill CoH."

It's just that simple.

[jpark]

Windup, if you haven't actually played CoH, you will not understand the differences between archetypes. It may SOUND like typical healer/mage/tank type of combat, but it isn't. All the archtypes feel very different, and I think only the tank and blaster are even close to feeling like ay of the old roles. And there are a number of variations within that. Controller plays like an enchanter in EQ... sort of, but not really. Not to mention that both controllers and defenders can be extremely varied based on the power sets they pick. A storm controller and a fire controller feel VERY different from each other.

If you have played it and didn't see this, you obviously didn't play long enough. I imagine you didn't play long enough because it didn't "trip your trigger." Which is fine, but don't make assinine assertions when you have no idea what you are talking about. Also, stop whoring UO. It had it's moment in the sun, it is not deathly afraid of the sun, for fear that its skin might burn off from exposure.

My "controller" can (Ice/Empath):

Attack with this Pet
Buff
Heal
Stamina regen aura

Oh ya.... control crowds :)

All this and I have not mentioned the optional power pools:

I body pull using phase shift.

Shadowbane:  Agreed they had the best class system, but nothing else worked.

[Big Gulp]

I'll go on the record and say "a fantasy MMOG will never kill CoH."

It's just that simple.

Exactly.  Some of us are bone fucking tired of fantasy.

I know I am.

[MaceVanHoffen]

I play around 10 hours a week, sometimes more sometimes less.  There've been a few weeks that I didn't log on at all.  Then, I've had a Saturday afternoon or two on which I had nothing to do and so played a really long time.  If that makes me a catass, then call me Mr. Catass.

For most of that time I've been grouped, doing door missions constantly.  Up until recently, I have been soloing around 1/3rd of the time.  I am noticing that as I level, fewer people seem to want to group.  That's the one thing that's threatening to slow me down quite a bit.

As an aside, the single biggest levelling device in CoH is the taskforce.  I've gotten into some really, really skilled taskforce teams (pickup no less!) and gotten between 2 and 3 levels at a shot.  You just don't see that in the other MMOG's I've played, which seem much more focused on slowing players down to a measured, monthly-rate paying pace.

[HaemishM]

I'll go on the record and say "a fantasy MMOG will never kill CoH."

It's just that simple.

Yeah, X 2 + 17 to the power of 10.

WoW is WoW, and it does what it does well. But what it does is not what CoH does. They tickle different fancies. Sure, there's some crossover, mainly because they are both DikuMud evolutions. But WoW already had its chance to kill CoH, and as the original post in this thread indicated, it hasn't done it yet. Yes, population has dropped, which is to be expected with a game that's 10 months old. But as I said, I think it's got probably twice as many subscribers as it needs to be profitable.

The MMOG market is big enough that there is no "One True Game" anymore, as in the days of UO and EQ. The fact that the genre is now supporting a comic book MMOG, multiple (too many) fantasy MMOG's, and at least one moderately successful Sci-fi MMOG (and two or three not so successful but not failing ones as well) tells me that the only two things that can kill CoH are Cryptic and time.

[Righ]

If someone has invented a class system that doesn't result in thousands and thousands of exactly six different character types, then good.  It's about time.

Might as well keep babbling from a position of ignorance. It makes your posts so much more entertaining.

WHY DON'T YOU PLAY SOME OTHER FUCKING GAMES AND FIND OUT WHAT HAS BEEN "INVENTED"?

[jpark]

I'll go on the record and say "a fantasy MMOG will never kill CoH."

It's just that simple.

Yeah, X 2 + 17 to the power of 10. 

The MMOG market is big enough that there is no "One True Game" anymore, as in the days of UO and EQ. The fact that the genre is now supporting a comic book MMOG, multiple (too many) fantasy MMOG's, and at least one moderately successful Sci-fi MMOG (and two or three not so successful but not failing ones as well) tells me that the only two things that can kill CoH are Cryptic and time.

I am waiting for a post nuclear MMORPG:  Fallout.  It doesn't exist yet * wishes harder *

[AcidCat]

I'll go on the record and say "a fantasy MMOG will never kill CoH."

It's just that simple.

It will probably stay strong until the Marvel-licensed MMOG hits in a couple years. 

[Lum]

Actually MMOs arguably can't die of natural causes. They can be killed, of course (see: Earth and Beyond), but Ultima Online is still percolating on years after its launch. WoW/EQ2's launch hit the existing market pretty solidly (including ours) but the existing market still exists. EQ1 has a new expansion due out, SWG just massively expanded their team, AO is giving away basic access for free, and we're doing some fairly radical things on our end. Competition is a good thing. It's the mark of a healthy marketplace and makes the competitors all the stronger for it.

I'm mulling over an interesting heresy. Can a "true breakout mass market MMO game" even exist? Arguably, from a technical standpoint, with today's network and database tech, a multi-million user MMO runs the stark danger of being crushed under its own infrastructure's weight. A different paradigm might lie with the (book) publishing industry - after all, a book doesn't need to be purchased by every literate person on the globe to be a best-seller. And not every MMO has to be sold to every internet user to pay the bills. A mature eye to the bottom line in production can allow for a far greater leeway in design freedom as well, which  means More Fun Stuff.

Of course this doesn't help those who view the MMO marketplace as a knife fight, but that view is somewhat inaccurate anyway.

[Avatard]

Can a "true breakout mass market MMO game" even exist? Arguably, from a technical standpoint, with today's network and database tech, a multi-million user MMO runs the stark danger of being crushed under its own infrastructure's weight. A different paradigm might lie with the (book) publishing industry - after all, a book doesn't need to be purchased by every literate person on the globe to be a best-seller. And not every MMO has to be sold to every internet user to pay the bills. A mature eye to the bottom line in production can allow for a far greater leeway in design freedom as well, which  means More Fun Stuff.

That's the smartest thing you've said in 5 years.

[HaemishM]

I'm mulling over an interesting heresy. Can a "true breakout mass market MMO game" even exist?

Not in the North American market, IMO. Being that the mass market in NA requires copious amounts of teh shiney, I don't see any team being able to support the content requirements, shiney requirements and server requirements that something like that would require. Lineage 1 (and 2 for that matter) is supported in Asia by the low system requirements and the insanity of PC Bangs. I think WoW's dominance over EQ2 in terms of box sales has at least a small bit to do with the lower system requirements on the former.

[Murgos]

Actually MMOs arguably can't die of natural causes. They can be killed, of course (see: Earth and Beyond), but Ultima Online is still percolating on years after its launch. WoW/EQ2's launch hit the existing market pretty solidly (including ours) but the existing market still exists. EQ1 has a new expansion due out, SWG just massively expanded their team, AO is giving away basic access for free, and we're doing some fairly radical things on our end. Competition is a good thing. It's the mark of a healthy marketplace and makes the competitors all the stronger for it.

Heh, Zombie MMO's.  I like it.

[WindupAtheist]

Might as well keep babbling from a position of ignorance. It makes your posts so much more entertaining.

WHY DON'T YOU PLAY SOME OTHER FUCKING GAMES AND FIND OUT WHAT HAS BEEN "INVENTED"?

Quick, let me drop fifty bucks on another box of "Kill the Foozle for the Ding!"

Or perhaps not.

[schild]

Quick, let me drop fifty bucks on another box of "Kill the Foozle for the Ding!"

Or perhaps not.

Time to get a new gimmick and avatar.

The UO shit is getting stale and your avatar isn't funny (anymore?).

[Llava]

Quick, let me drop fifty bucks on another box of "Kill the Foozle for the Ding!"

Or perhaps not.

Talking from a position of knowledge is so freaking old.  Assumption is the new knowledge!

[HaemishM]

I would link to a picture of teh goatse.cx in order to illustrate the area Windup likes to talk from, but I'd like to keep my breakfast down.

[WindupAtheist]

Ever so sorry to have besmirched the F13 sacred gaming cow.  Sure it's a pure level grinder with no housing, no crafting, and not even any gankage until they finally push out an expansion...  But it has a somewhat more diverse than normal class system, and it lets you be a SUPARHERO!!!

[Mesozoic]

Ever so sorry to have besmirched the F13 sacred gaming cow.  Sure it's a pure level grinder with no housing, no crafting, and not even any gankage until they finally push out an expansion...  But it has a somewhat more diverse than normal class system, and it lets you be a SUPARHERO!!!

Wait....our sacred cow?  I thought this was about your cow and your insistance on having strong opinions on cows you've never seen before.

[Llava]

Ever so sorry to have besmirched the F13 sacred gaming cow.  Sure it's a pure level grinder with no housing, no crafting, and not even any gankage until they finally push out an expansion...  But it has a somewhat more diverse than normal class system, and it lets you be a SUPARHERO!!!

You know what, I never played UO.

BUT IT FUCKING SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take that.

[WindupAtheist]

My game is a broken-down old whore.  But it's damn near the only "not everquest" in town.

[Mesozoic]

That you so consider CoH to be like EQ is Exhibit No. 1 in the case of WindUpAtheist vs. STFU.

[Big Gulp]

My game is a broken-down old whore.  But it's damn near the only "not everquest" in town.

So let me get this straight...  Sir Bruce was an inch away from being banned, yet this mongoloid happily walks the earth?

That's fantastic.

[Rasix]

Insulting your game is not going to get someone a ban.  Being an annoying troll, possibly.  Then again, I do not have access to the button.

[SirBruce]

You have no idea the warm feeling I get inside knowing that with the recent influx of even more annoying posters on f13, I'm no longer occupying the bottom rung of the hate ladder.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

I wouldn't say you've moved any rungs, just that your rung is getting a bit more crowded.

And before this turns into a Bruce thread, CoH is like EQ, if the EQ formula were done in a fun way. It isn't a sacred cow, but it sure is a helluva lot better game than what UO has turned into. Also, some people who actually like playing games, me included, don't feel the exclusion of urban sprawl housing gluts, shittastic RSI-inducing borefest crafting or the lack of being run over by someone with more numbers in their name than vowels makes it a bad game.

No, it isn't UO, and it isn't a virtual world. It doesn't have to be. It just has to be a fun game.

Or to put it less succintly, I've written about this subject before.

EDIT: Because BBCode is hard and whatnot.