NCSoft Reports Quarterly Results; CoH Subscribers Down

[jpark]

I think most of the gripes about how long it takes to level have one common thread; they all come from people who've rarely gotten past 20.

In a nutshell, you are doing something wrong.  A decent task force group will likely nab you damn near 2 levels.  About 3 weeks of casual play and I've already got an alien up to level 30, just by running my solo missions, grouping frequently, and doing task forces.

It's as shallow a grind as World of Warcraft's is, and that's about as shallow a grind as you're going to get in one of these games.  If you can't seem to progress out of lowbieland you're doing something wrong, folks.

I agree.  I hear of people complain sometimes there are not enough quests and they need to grind to level.  If you die often - this could be a problem.  If you play reasonably well - you never complete all the contact quests before you level (up to level 37 for me).

[HaemishM]

Not much of a rebuttal. Tell me how this game is better than any other MMORPG other than what I stated.

It's fun from day one?

[Rasix]

Not much of a rebuttal. Tell me how this game is better than any other MMORPG other than what I stated.

It's fun from day one?

The problem is, it just went all downhill after that.  Maybe it was the fact that I couldn't find an archetype I liked. Or maybe it was for parts of the game the missions ran dry or became solo unfriendly.  The game just got fucking DULL.  Once you got to the apparent chewey middle, it just tasted like ash.

[stray]

I still want to like CoH, and I do believe it's still the best MMOG out there...But that being said, the xp change they implemented early after release pretty much ruined it me. I've tried playing since then, but it just doesn't suit my tastes any longer. It's a grind now, and with very little reward to speak of.

Before, when advancement was much more fast, the reward was in the actual experience of playing it. Now, not so much. Before, I could deal with "shallow". I could even enjoy it. But "shallow" AND "tedious"? Sorry, I've got better ways to waste my time.

[trias_e]

Some of what I posted is a matter of opinion, especially about the 'coolness' of the game.  So I'll concede that.

But really, the reason I didn't like the game is in some sense beyond all of that analyzation (or it requires a deeper analysis):  The game for me is fun for less than 24 hours of playtime on any character.  Thats as far as I've ever gotten before getting bored out of my mind.  I think this is due to its somewhat narrow perspective, lack of intriguing npc's or zones, lack of reason to grind through it to see anything new.  I just feel the game is like a more shallow EQ, with more actiony combat (that actually gets boring quicker for me).

Its like playing Serious Sam.  Yeah, its fun for 10 hours, but then I don't want to see the damn game again for a year.  So yeah, maybe its fun from day one, but not at day 14.  For me.  Due to its somewhat narrow perspective.

So there's my explination without any intentional phrases or tone of voice built to piss off people who like the game.

(I'm a terrible troll =/)

[trias_e]

I agree. I hear of people complain sometimes there are not enough quests and they need to grind to level.

I consider the missions a grind.  They are utterly devoid of any personality whatsoever (in my experience).  Its just your own private randomly generated hallway to go do the same thing you could have done in the street.  And there's maybe 5 of them, total.  For the 50+ missions you'd have to do to get past 20.

(I'm back!)

[stray]

The game for me is fun for less than 24 hours of playtime on any character.

Did you play it at release?

Like I said above, when things moved quicker and I got to experience more in a shorter period of time, I thought it was great. Now, at current xp rate, it keeps me within the same zones/power pools for too long that it's easy to get burned out before I'm even started.

[jpark]

I agree. I hear of people complain sometimes there are not enough quests and they need to grind to level.

I consider the missions a grind.  They are utterly devoid of any personality whatsoever (in my experience).  Its just your own private randomly generated hallway to go do the same thing you could have done in the street.  And there's maybe 5 of them, total.  For the 50+ missions you'd have to do to get past 20.

(I'm back!)

They need more work here I agree.  More variety and at a faster pace.  However, pick a MMORPG and compare, since the variety I see:

1.  Rooftop missions.  Did you pick fly?  Climbing stairs can be a pain lol - makes you think about your powers.

2.  Tsoo Warriors.  With ranged combat and teleport at their disposal - you require totally different tactics in fighting these bad guys.

3.  Find X in mission.  Damn easy - if you took invisibility :)  Run through the mission - loot the boxes - done.  Fast.  Again - makes you think about your power choices.

4.  Divide and conqueror.  Just like the B horror film - your mates can separate and go after bad guys individually to speed things up and if things get tight - use Teleport friend to bring a buddy into the area.  Again, makes you think about your powers and how to approach the mission in question.

5.  Find and Kill X.  Find the bad guy and do the fight.  If you go through the mission and clear it hallway by hallway your a poor DnD player :)  If you dawn invisibility and map the place - unimpeded by combat - then you get to the heart of the mission quickly.

There are more, that's just what comes to mind.  

It is classic DnD issues:  rather than ask how interesting the mission is - ask what powers you can bring to bear to finish it more quickly.  In those terms, I think there  is great mission variety.

When I played EQ2 to a 27 as Templar I found every combat the same.  I never had to think about choices I made.  Eq2 has other strengths, but on the topic of the "grind"...

Yup there is room for improvement here - but compared against other games - I find it much more engaging.  Even in groups - no need for the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps necesssarily - different solutions are possible.

[trias_e]

I played at release as an Ice/Stone tanker.  I think the problem then was the character.  A couple months later, I played as a storm/dark defender.  It was definitely better, but I think the XP was slower and thus made the game tedious, as you said.  After that character I tried a Claws/DA scrapper, which was pretty fun for 12-16 hours.  But nothing changed in the end.  I think I probably would have liked the storm/dark defender the most out of all of them.

I mainly started the claws/da scrapper just to see if scappers leveled faster than other characters, which I didn't find that they really did.

[Glazius]

Hmm.

There's no interstitial advancement.

There are levels, and that's basically it. Enhancements mean a lot with how you slot them, but since they're level-gated you just shell out at the new level and you're back to full effectiveness again.

No craft skills. No equipment where money might make a difference, and no equipment to loot, either.

The only thing that makes you a more powerful hero is more levels.

Okay, now I can see where 'level grind' is coming from.

The thing is - how much of he viability of sidekick/exemplar is because there's no interstitial advancement? You can group with anybody at any level and scale yourself to be as challenged as they are, and you don't have to worry about falling behind on your own alternate forms of advancement because it's all taken care of.

--GF

[trias_e]

Interesting post Jpark.  Makes me think that maybe I would have enjoyed the game more had I ever picked fly or invisibility ; ).

I only got to travel powers with one character, and he had super jump (which was definitely fun).  I had teleport Foe with my scrapper, which was fun to use.  Never got to teleport though.  I think I was a half level away.

[jpark]

The only thing that makes you a more powerful hero is more levels.

--GF

That's too bad - guess you never experimented enough to get an "uber" build :)

In PvE that can be harder to detect unless it is a hard fight.  In PvP, however...

Shadowbane illustrated this well enough.  A good build alone can compensate for many levels difference between you and your opponent.

If by interstitial advancement you mean non-combat activites - those are coming.  We can judge it when it comes.

[Glazius]

The only thing that makes you a more powerful hero is more levels.

--GF

That's too bad - guess you never experimented enough to get an "uber" build :)

In PvE that can be harder to detect unless it is a hard fight.  In PvP, however...

Shadowbane illustrated this well enough.  A good build alone can compensate for many levels difference between you and your opponent.

On another note, what do you mean by "interstitial advancement"?  Not being sarcastic - I don't understand the reference.

Interstitial advancement is advancement that happens "in between". You raise a stat or skill, you get a better piece of equipment, you get money to buy better pieces of equipment, and you become more effective without going up in levels. Enhancement slotting doesn't really fit into this. At level 12 you start filling your powers with DOs. At level 17 you upgrade the DOs. At level 22 you switch to SOs, at 27 you upgrade, and by the time you hit 32 or 37 you can keep your enhancements maxed out all the time.

I agree, there are good builds and not-so-good builds for various situations, but in absolute terms a level 20 with a good build is less powerful than a level 30 with the same good build.

The reason "level grind" shows up in CoH is because the only way to get better is to rack up more experience points and level. I don't perceive it as a grind, myself. There's always challenging stuff to do, no matter what level you are - but then, I'm a pretty hard-core explorer.

For someone who wants to grow in power, the milestones are very far apart.

--GF

[jpark]

GF - Agreed they have to address interstitial advancement or "non-combat" activities.

I think they are aware of this.  I think we will see the first steps to addressing this in Issue 5.

If you guys want to talk about variety in the game more - check the CoH forum post "CoH combat variety" - I think there are a lot of interesting posts there on tactics in missions.

[Llava]

Now the above posts about the game's shallowness I can agree with.  Personally, it's not a problem for me.  I'm a hardcore achiever type, so the cape, that badge, that next power, that personal aura effect... those are enough to keep me entertained.  I also just plain like the genre- I'm one of those who has to have a full, detailed backstory for every single character or that character is quite simply not fun for me.  CoH lets me write pretty much /any/ weird-ass story I can think of, and there's enough variety in power choices that I can usually live up to the story and explain why the character has the powers he does.  The costume system is, of course, another big part of this.

So like I said before, it mostly comes down to opinion in this case.  You can't really say that CoH is a bad game in the same way that you can't really say that WoW is a bad game.  It's just that it's not right for you.  You CAN say that Lineage 2 is a bad game.  That's fact.  That game isn't right for anyone except for Asians who, by my estimation, are all completely insane.

[WindupAtheist]

I was ambivalent here, until I heard someone say something about their group's healer dropping.  Wow, the heal/tank/nuke archetype.  Again.  Color me fucking impressed.  I don't know what the SWG combat system is like, and I hear it blows, but since descriptions of it don't sound exactly like people talking about Everquest five years ago, it wins.

[stray]

I was ambivalent here, until I heard someone say something about their group's healer dropping.  Wow, the heal/tank/nuke archetype.  Again.  Color me fucking impressed.  I don't know what the SWG combat system is like, and I hear it blows, but since descriptions of it don't sound exactly like people talking about Everquest five years ago, it wins.

CoH was going to use a skill system, but unfortunately, they pulled out on the idea at the last minute.

[WindupAtheist]

Really, how do some of you people do it?  How do you play the tank/nuke/heal game in say... WoW, get sick of it, start playing CoH, and convince yourself it's something different?  We all know everyone keeps remaking EQ over and over these days, but just how many reiterations of the exact same core gameplay have to come down the pipe before you quit giving a crap?

[stray]

Really, how do some of you people do it?  How do you play the tank/nuke/heal game in say... WoW, get sick of it, start playing CoH, and convince yourself it's something different?  We all know everyone keeps remaking EQ over and over these days, but just how many reiterations of the exact same core gameplay have to come down the pipe before you quit giving a crap?

I don't like it over what it could have been, but some traces of the original skill system are still there. It's not exactly a class system in the same sense that EQ and WoW is. Not all "Defender" types (Healer) are exactly true blue healers. Not all Tanks have to be made as meat shields, etc.. Plus, there's a neutral Power Pool of skills that all characters can train in.

That being said, exploration is tied with achievement. The class system is interesting, but it's still the same old leveling game as EQ is.

[Abel]

 

but just how many reiterations of the exact same core gameplay have to come down the pipe before you quit giving a crap?

That's what you call a "genre". Nowadays very few games can't be pigeonholed into a clear genre, makes it easier for marketing.

You might be surprised by this, but having EQ-style classes also has some big advantages, like being much easier to balance. Apparently the reason why Cryptic scuttled their skill-based system late in development was that it turned out to be a balancing nightmare.
On top of that classes facilitate transparant and simple-to-implement group mechanics.

In theory, skill-based systems give unlimited character building options. In reality, that just lasts till the players figure out the "uber builds" and when almost everyone runs around as Tank Mage (UO) or Life Mage (AC) you would be far better off with a class based system ...

[eldaec]

Really, how do some of you people do it?  How do you play the tank/nuke/heal game in say... WoW, get sick of it, start playing CoH, and convince yourself it's something different?  We all know everyone keeps remaking EQ over and over these days, but just how many reiterations of the exact same core gameplay have to come down the pipe before you quit giving a crap?

The same way you can play an fps, get sick of it, but still play another one.

Also the same way you can play any game for 2 years, stop playing it, but then still want to play something from the same genre.

CoH has its share of problems, but its relationship to DikuMUD is not one of them.

People need to seriously look at the way they judge MMOGs as good or bad. Getting bored of a game only after several months of play does not suggest a failed paradigm.

Here's a thing. EQ was a successful product. Lots of people bought it. Lots of people played it voluntarily for a very long time. Lots of people still enjoy it today. The fact that other games build on what EQ did should not, on it's own, be a reason for disliking them.

I no longer play Dune 2 or Civilisation, I got bored of them. This does not imply that Rome: Total War is a terrible game that nobody should ever have made.

On top of all that, CoH is (for a MMOG) a baby step away from tank/mage/heal, the fact that you are not dependant on any of the 5 broad archetypes to able to even start playing *is* a change. The fact that you can design characters of any AT that do things outside of their normal territory and still be effective *is* handled better than it has been before. The approachs to buff/debuff mechanisms, to combat speed and involvement, to having mobs which are suseptible to differing tactics, and to having significant amounts of content added in every patch, are all improvements on what is generally available elsewhere.

There are still mechanisms for taking damage, giving damage, and recovering from damage, but this is true in any combat related game.
 

[Mesozoic]

CoH was going to use a skill system, but unfortunately, they pulled out on the idea at the last minute.

The mind boggles at the possible abuses that would have come about if they had not segregated the powersets into ATs.  The only character type that I've wanted to play that didn't really fit was a hybrid ranged/melee character.

[Big Gulp]

The mind boggles at the possible abuses that would have come about if they had not segregated the powersets into ATs.  The only character type that I've wanted to play that didn't really fit was a hybrid ranged/melee character.

It seems to me that that's precisely what the Peacebringer archetype is possible of.  My peacebringer is up to level 29 now, and because I've skipped the forms, has about the ranged damage potential of a defender, does just shy of the damage of a scrapper in melee if you concentrate on the two major melee forms, and I have resistances (toggles) again just shy of a scrapper.  Next level I can take seeker drones which are basically a variant on controller pets, with the considerable difference that instead of fighting the bad guys they blow up around them and cause AOE damage.  On top of that I have self heals/HP buffs and a ranged heal.

I feel I've got a pretty effective build going, but I know that there are other builds that I could have gone with just because the Kheldians and their forms have so many power options to build off of.  They're far more skill based archetypes than the other base archetypes are, but with that freedom comes the distinct possibility of gimping your character quite badly, which is a trap that I think a lot of people who decided to dabble in shapeshifting have probably fallen into.

[Glazius]

The mind boggles at the possible abuses that would have come about if they had not segregated the powersets into ATs.  The only character type that I've wanted to play that didn't really fit was a hybrid ranged/melee character.

It seems to me that that's precisely what the Peacebringer archetype is possible of.  My peacebringer is up to level 29 now, and because I've skipped the forms, has about the ranged damage potential of a defender, does just shy of the damage of a scrapper in melee if you concentrate on the two major melee forms, and I have resistances (toggles) again just shy of a scrapper.  Next level I can take seeker drones which are basically a variant on controller pets, with the considerable difference that instead of fighting the bad guys they blow up around them and cause AOE damage.  On top of that I have self heals/HP buffs and a ranged heal.

I feel I've got a pretty effective build going, but I know that there are other builds that I could have gone with just because the Kheldians and their forms have so many power options to build off of.  They're far more skill based archetypes than the other base archetypes are, but with that freedom comes the distinct possibility of gimping your character quite badly, which is a trap that I think a lot of people who decided to dabble in shapeshifting have probably fallen into.

Yeah, I had a question about that. I know that as far as shapeshifting goes you turn squid/lobster and have a limited power selection. How are those powers enhanced? Do you slot out the shapeshift slot and those buffs apply to all powers? Does each new power take as a "slot model" some existing power? Or do you slot each of the four powers of the new form separately - and if so, do you get more slots to do it with or do you have to thin out your future slot distribution to account for the four new powers?

--GF

Also, most blaster builds will let you have both ranged and melee attacks, the problem being your survivability in melee doesn't go up much.

[Big Gulp]

Yeah, I had a question about that. I know that as far as shapeshifting goes you turn squid/lobster and have a limited power selection. How are those powers enhanced? Do you slot out the shapeshift slot and those buffs apply to all powers? Does each new power take as a "slot model" some existing power? Or do you slot each of the four powers of the new form separately - and if so, do you get more slots to do it with or do you have to thin out your future slot distribution to account for the four new powers?

The way it works is you buy your nova form and say for the squid there are 4 powers inherent in that form.  They all start with one slot, and you have to buy additional slots if you want to enhance those additional powers individually.  Nope, we don't get more enhance slots, but even ignoring the forms we still have a wider power selection than the base archetypes.  Add in the forms and it becomes very easy to spread where you slot your enhancements way too thin.

This is an archetype that requires a lot of hard choices to be made, and requires that you not take some powers that sound very cool or else you wind up being much weaker than you should be.  The cool thing, though, is that I can sort of halfass fill in for any role out there that the group may lack.  I've been a primary scrapper, a quasi-tanker, and a backup healer who tosses in ranged damage.  They were wise to make it only for people who've seen the end game, though, because newbies would be screwed with this AT.

[AcidCat]

I think most of the gripes about how long it takes to level have one common thread; they all come from people who've rarely gotten past 20.

In a nutshell, you are doing something wrong.  A decent task force group will likely nab you damn near 2 levels.  About 3 weeks of casual play and I've already got an alien up to level 30, just by running my solo missions, grouping frequently, and doing task forces.

It's as shallow a grind as World of Warcraft's is, and that's about as shallow a grind as you're going to get in one of these games.  If you can't seem to progress out of lowbieland you're doing something wrong, folks.

Maybe I was doing something "wrong" but I found the mid-twenties to be a terrible grind, which is one of the reasons I quit. It seemed to take forever to get that new power, it just wasn't worth it. I find WoW's leveling to be much more to my liking.

[WayAbvPar]

I think most of the gripes about how long it takes to level have one common thread; they all come from people who've rarely gotten past 20.

In a nutshell, you are doing something wrong.  A decent task force group will likely nab you damn near 2 levels.  About 3 weeks of casual play and I've already got an alien up to level 30, just by running my solo missions, grouping frequently, and doing task forces.

It's as shallow a grind as World of Warcraft's is, and that's about as shallow a grind as you're going to get in one of these games.  If you can't seem to progress out of lowbieland you're doing something wrong, folks.

Maybe I was doing something "wrong" but I found the mid-twenties to be a terrible grind, which is one of the reasons I quit. It seemed to take forever to get that new power, it just wasn't worth it. I find WoW's leveling to be much more to my liking.

Ditto. I got into my early 20s and advancement just STOPPED. Suddenly killing the same mobs over and over again seemed horrifyingly pointless, and the grind showed through.

[Abel]

Maybe I was doing something "wrong" but I found the mid-twenties to be a terrible grind

You're doing something wrong, because normally you level faster during your lower lvl 20s then during your high teens. My lvl speed only went back to "high-teens" speed after lvl 30.

Thing is, you need to get your build right which smacks a bit of bad power design. Stamina at lvl 20 is crucial and so is hasten for most ATs.

[jpark]

And how often you die.  There are some players who seem to die not just nightly but hourly.  No doubt this makes the "grind" longer.

[Llava]

It really would be nice if Hasten and Stamina weren't such "no-brainer" powers.  I'd definitely be in favor of an increase to base endurance regeneration to allow people to more realistically get along without Stamina.

Regarding the tank/nuke/heal thing.

It's funny you mention that- I was surprised when I started playing CoH just how little you really need healing.  Most of the Defender sets only have 1 heal.  That goes for Kinetics, Dark Miasma, Radiation Emission and Storm Summoning.  Empathy has several heals and is really the "healing" set.  Force Fields offer no heals.  What's really good about the sets is that they offer a great deal of utility in other ways that are quite good at mitigating the need for heals.  Force Fielders, for example, give lots of Defense.  Radiation offers debuffs that increase a team's offensive potential (as well as defensive).  Dark Miasma is focused on debuffs that ruin enemy accuracy, as well as some crowd control abilities.  Storm Summoning is sort of a jack of all trades set, with debuffs, a buff, and control.

But hey, if you want to heal then Empathy is right there.  If you're not a big fan of healing, but you like playing support, you're also set.

[HaemishM]

I just got Stamina the other day at level 24 with my martial arts/super reflexes scrapper. Even though it's only got one + enhancer in it, I can tell it is a must have power. I'd have gotten it earlier if I'd figured out how much I'd need it. Not having it certainly added to a grindy feeling in the high teens (around 19) and the 20's. The exp. debt is also still way too high for those levels, IMO. Lessen debt and the grind won't feel nearly so grindy.

I'm still subscribed and enjoying it, but I play VERY little each week. I use it as the first real casual MMOG I've played, and it works best that way. I also solo. I haven't grouped since most of the BC folks went away.

[Big Gulp]

I also solo. I haven't grouped since most of the BC folks went away.

That's unfortunate, really.  This game has the best LFG system I've ever seen and a playerbase that is always happy to group because there's really no downside to it.  Most of the time I can't cross a zone going from mission to mission without an invite, and I never have my LFG tag up.  Sure, you'll run into a lot of tards, but just learn to kick 'em or leave the group quickly when you spot 'em.  However, I've run into a lot of decent people as well, and picked up a lot of SG mates that way.

I still like soloing quite a bit, but if you have the time teaming really can be nice.

[ClydeJr]

They never fixed outlevelling contacts?

This is why I stopped playing the game.

Bruce

They've announced plans to have "flashbacks" when you can go back and complete old story arc/badges missions that you may have outleveled. No idea when this will be implemented though.

[MaceVanHoffen]

Ditto. I got into my early 20s and advancement just STOPPED. Suddenly killing the same mobs over and over again seemed horrifyingly pointless, and the grind showed through.

I think the basic problem is we all define "grind" and "fun" differently.  I tried CoH after a 2 year hiatus from MMOG's, and I found the levelling to be faster than anything I'd seen in the games I'd played.  Mind you, I'm a MMOG freak:  UO, EQ, DAoC, and AO.  In none of those did I ever level as fast as I did in CoH, though perhaps my memory is flawed.  I am also a comic book nut, so bias might play into it too.

I didn't find the 20's to be a grind, as they flew by so fast as to be ludicrous.  My main, an MA/regen scrapper, is 40 and climbing fast after starting last November, plus I have (way too) many alts in their 20's to boot.

Viva la difference, I guess.

[Xilren's Twin]

I just got Stamina the other day at level 24 with my martial arts/super reflexes scrapper. Even though it's only got one + enhancer in it, I can tell it is a must have power. I'd have gotten it earlier if I'd figured out how much I'd need it. Not having it certainly added to a grindy feeling in the high teens (around 19) and the 20's. The exp. debt is also still way too high for those levels, IMO. Lessen debt and the grind won't feel nearly so grindy.
I'm still subscribed and enjoying it, but I play VERY little each week. I use it as the first real casual MMOG I've played, and it works best that way. I also solo. I haven't grouped since most of the BC folks went away.

Very similar.  I'll play for about a week, make a few levels, then something else gets my attention.  But, it's an easy game to jump back into and play casually.  Even at 30 i can usually pull a mission in about 30-45 mins thus I always feel like Im make progress.  Not a fan of street hunting.  ANd yes, I'm a defender with 1 heal power i never use.  Storm energy plays like a point blank single target nukers.  :)

Xilren