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Author Topic: N00b (again) help- so much has changed!  (Read 22096 times)
Ingmar
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Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 07:04:23 PM

Primary stats are:

Str - all tanks minus feral druids, all plate dps
Agi - rogues, feral druids, hunters, enhancement shamans
Int - all dps casters and healers

Spirit is a secondary stat that governs mana regen but really only matters for healers because they are the only ones who can make any use of it during combat. Balance druids and elemental shamans use it like hit rating (this enables them to share gear with resto specs), otherwise it should be avoided by non healers.

On the haste/crit/mastery/hit/expertise front that varies widely by class and spec which ones are most important so it would be hard to give a general overview.

Resilience is a pvp-only stat basically. Everyone wants it in pvp.

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ajax34i
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Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 08:42:06 PM

Spirit only matters for healers because healers get a "You can regen 50% of your spirit-determined mana during combat" talent ability.  Mages don't get that, they're supposed to go burst DPS till they're OOM and then drink up.  I've levelled up an alt mage to about 43, and I rarely had to drink actually.  Now and then, past L20 when my mana pool got bigger.

IMO, there's a little bit of a built-in nerf to our ability to hit (with spells or melee); I always needed a little bit of +Hit gear in order to not miss vs. equal level mobs while levelling up.  After that, if you're a class that relies on criticals (rogue, cat druid, fire mage), you want +Crit (as your second priority after your primary stat), it's nice.

Biggest needs for my alts were bags, a dedicated AH character with space (you often need to wait for the weekend to get deals or sell your stuff, and it accumulates fast during the week), and, if levelling up professions, gold.

EDIT:  nevermind, was suggesting to buy silk from the AH.  It should be cheap, but maybe everyone on your server is levelling up first aid.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:50:59 PM by ajax34i »
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Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 10:04:49 PM

Primary stats are:
Str - all tanks minus feral druids, all plate dps

Are tanks really prioritizing str over stamina now?  I remember getting shit for that in Lich King.
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Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 10:38:21 PM

Primary stats are:
Str - all tanks minus feral druids, all plate dps

Are tanks really prioritizing str over stamina now?  I remember getting shit for that in Lich King.

Stamina is not a 'primary stat' in the sense I'm using it here. All gear has the same amount of stamina on it now basically so it never really factors into 'is this for my spec?'

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Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 10:58:45 PM

Spirit is a secondary stat that governs mana regen but really only matters for healers because they are the only ones who can make any use of it during combat. Balance druids and elemental shamans use it like hit rating (this enables them to share gear with resto specs), otherwise it should be avoided by non healers.

Shadow Priests have the spi -> Hit talent as well.

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Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 10:58:58 PM

Spirit only matters for healers because healers get a "You can regen 50% of your spirit-determined mana during combat" talent ability.  Mages don't get that, they're supposed to go burst DPS till they're OOM and then drink up.  I've levelled up an alt mage to about 43, and I rarely had to drink actually.  Now and then, past L20 when my mana pool got bigger.

IMO, there's a little bit of a built-in nerf to our ability to hit (with spells or melee); I always needed a little bit of +Hit gear in order to not miss vs. equal level mobs while levelling up.  After that, if you're a class that relies on criticals (rogue, cat druid, fire mage), you want +Crit (as your second priority after your primary stat), it's nice.

Biggest needs for my alts were bags, a dedicated AH character with space (you often need to wait for the weekend to get deals or sell your stuff, and it accumulates fast during the week), and, if levelling up professions, gold.

EDIT:  nevermind, was suggesting to buy silk from the AH.  It should be cheap, but maybe everyone on your server is levelling up first aid.

IIRC, the intent was for caster dps to never have mana issues via mana regen mechanics within their trees (cast X, proc mana return type stuff), but it doesn't really work for a lot of specs.
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Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 11:52:49 PM

IMO, there's a little bit of a built-in nerf to our ability to hit (with spells or melee); I always needed a little bit of +Hit gear in order to not miss vs. equal level mobs while levelling up.

1. 5% is the base miss chance.
2. Chance to miss increases by by 1% per level difference between you and the enemy.
3. Magic has an additional penalty against enemies 3 levels higher.  This penalty is 9%.  Thus the total miss chance against said enemy would be 17%.
4. The dual-wield penalty is 19%, this only applies to auto-attacks.
5. When in doubt about a stat, read the tooltip, it tells you everything you need to know.
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Reply #42 on: January 27, 2011, 07:53:31 AM

Stamina is not a 'primary stat' in the sense I'm using it here. All gear has the same amount of stamina on it now basically so it never really factors into 'is this for my spec?'

Pally and Warrior tanks are also favoring mastery in their secondary stats these days due to block. DK's are favoring parry. Druids, I have no idea.

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Reply #43 on: January 27, 2011, 09:04:21 AM

Stamina is not a 'primary stat' in the sense I'm using it here. All gear has the same amount of stamina on it now basically so it never really factors into 'is this for my spec?'

Pally and Warrior tanks are also favoring mastery in their secondary stats these days due to block. DK's are favoring parry. Druids, I have no idea.

Buh? When the heck did that start? DKs have been favoring mastery like nobody's business for a bit now. There is no reason to favor parry over dodge for them though (or more specifically: balance the two as much as possible)
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Reply #44 on: January 27, 2011, 09:20:24 AM

Mastery completely confuses me.  It sounds good but does it really help?  Besides tanks, I mean.  Haste seems so much better for what I play (hunter, lock, shadow priest, druid).
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Reply #45 on: January 27, 2011, 09:34:55 AM

Mastery completely confuses me.  It sounds good but does it really help?  Besides tanks, I mean.  Haste seems so much better for what I play (hunter, lock, shadow priest, druid).

It's entirely class and spec dependent as far as the value of mastery. Next patch is supposed to change a lot of that, but the numbers are still in flux (unholy dk mastery is changing from useless disease increase to slightly less useless all shadow damage increase, but simming it Haste still beats Mastery by a mile. But every tank spec seems to love mastery, and my holy priest adores it)
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Reply #46 on: January 27, 2011, 09:37:45 AM

Mastery completely confuses me.  It sounds good but does it really help?  Besides tanks, I mean.  Haste seems so much better for what I play (hunter, lock, shadow priest, druid).

It entirely depends on the class and spec.

It doesn't help unholy DKs much at all so it's not favored over crit or haste and probably hurts you more than helps if you have a lot (diseases do so little damage anyway.. so even 3x that is still nothing.) However, frost DKs favor it over crit or haste. Meanwhile, blood DKs want to stack as much of it as they possibly can for the damage shield.

Shadow priests don't really care about it because they only need one orb to get their bonus, so haste and crit are favored, meanwhile holy priests want to stack the hell out of it.  Disc priests, from what I've read want to keep a blend of everything else after Int and Spi, so it's a "meh" stat there as well.

They've failed to do what they appeared to want, which is make Mastery matter to all the specs so they can tweak them just using that stat.  It matters a lot for some specs to not at all for others.

Ed: reading up on hunter it looks like BM wants it balanced with crit since it buffs pet damage while Surv and Marks go Crit > mastery > haste.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 09:43:55 AM by Merusk »

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Reply #47 on: January 27, 2011, 09:46:14 AM

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

As I recall, the big talent changes were enacted to make all specs viable and more or less equivalent.  I don't see these changes as being any better at it than it was before. 

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Reply #48 on: January 27, 2011, 09:50:13 AM

Aside from a few classes, the dps specs and such are pretty solidly within 5% of each other. The simplification of the trees just made it so it's nearly impossible to gimp talent yourself.

Mastery just needed a LOT more simcrafting done in beta on it to say "hey, these numbers just do not work for some specs"
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Reply #49 on: January 27, 2011, 10:34:23 AM

Buh? When the heck did that start? DKs have been favoring mastery like nobody's business for a bit now. There is no reason to favor parry over dodge for them though (or more specifically: balance the two as much as possible)

They are now, but I get the sense that's changing some with the upcoming patches. Jury is still out. Parry and Dodge are equal, yes, but parry is beneficial due to the threat generation in addition. Warriors for certain are favoring parry over dodge right now due to talents.

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Ingmar
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Reply #50 on: January 27, 2011, 01:31:40 PM

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

As I recall, the big talent changes were enacted to make all specs viable and more or less equivalent.  I don't see these changes as being any better at it than it was before. 



I don't think that was the primary motivator, the primary motivator was when you have 76+ point talent trees it becomes nearly impossible to not just bloat the trees up with stupid filler talents. Plus they kept having to move the sexy 21/31/41 point talents farther and farther up the tree to keep people from being able to pick them up in their off spec, which meant that new characters took longer and longer to get those signature talents, which sucked, etc.

I *love* the new talent trees, a lot. Easily the best Cataclysm change other than the revamped old world.

Buh? When the heck did that start? DKs have been favoring mastery like nobody's business for a bit now. There is no reason to favor parry over dodge for them though (or more specifically: balance the two as much as possible)

They are now, but I get the sense that's changing some with the upcoming patches. Jury is still out. Parry and Dodge are equal, yes, but parry is beneficial due to the threat generation in addition. Warriors for certain are favoring parry over dodge right now due to talents.

Yeah parry is a bit better than dodge for warriors because of Hold the Line, but mastery still is better than either in general. The fact that we get parry from strength pushes parry rating into DR faster though so I'm not sure if it actually works out that we will want more actual *rating* from parry than dodge. I haven't really worried about optimizing yet though.

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Reply #51 on: January 27, 2011, 01:51:23 PM

I don't think that was the primary motivator, the primary motivator was when you have 76+ point talent trees it becomes nearly impossible to not just bloat the trees up with stupid filler talents. Plus they kept having to move the sexy 21/31/41 point talents farther and farther up the tree to keep people from being able to pick them up in their off spec, which meant that new characters took longer and longer to get those signature talents, which sucked, etc.

I *love* the new talent trees, a lot. Easily the best Cataclysm change other than the revamped old world.
I disagree with this completely. One of the coolest things about the old talent trees was that you got to make an INTERESTING decision not just where you spec, but for which tree you offspecced into. A Holy pally, for example, had a choice between increased crit in the Ret tree, or picking up Divine Sacrifice (now Divine Guardian) in the Prot tree for greater raid utility. PVP Assassination rogues running Mut/Prep is another example, SL/Felguard locks (although you can do this 80+, it was a good leveling build), grabbing Meditation as a leveling Spriest, etc. With the way the talents are now, all you get from whatever subspec is more "useless filler" talents that simply provide flat bonuses. It wouldn't be SO bad if they didn't force you to spend 31p before you sub-spec, but the way it is now you have almost no choice in how you spend your talents beyond "I want to play an enhance shaman".

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Reply #52 on: January 27, 2011, 02:08:25 PM

I always felt the old system was more the illusion of choice than actual choice. There were very few specs that could pick up X or Y without having a major difference in performance. Usually those choices still exist as well (floater points to advance the tier. Unholy DKs have two points where no option would increase dps, so spend them however you like)

The "pick a tree, get an immediate skill" thing helped the fact that leveling some specs was terrible, because you didn't get your spec defining skill until level 50ish and had to limp along without it. Lowbie shadow priests used to be painful because they were simply expected to smite the day away until 20/30ish.
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Reply #53 on: January 27, 2011, 02:32:05 PM

I don't think that was the primary motivator, the primary motivator was when you have 76+ point talent trees it becomes nearly impossible to not just bloat the trees up with stupid filler talents. Plus they kept having to move the sexy 21/31/41 point talents farther and farther up the tree to keep people from being able to pick them up in their off spec, which meant that new characters took longer and longer to get those signature talents, which sucked, etc.

I *love* the new talent trees, a lot. Easily the best Cataclysm change other than the revamped old world.
I disagree with this completely. One of the coolest things about the old talent trees was that you got to make an INTERESTING decision not just where you spec, but for which tree you offspecced into. A Holy pally, for example, had a choice between increased crit in the Ret tree, or picking up Divine Sacrifice (now Divine Guardian) in the Prot tree for greater raid utility. PVP Assassination rogues running Mut/Prep is another example, SL/Felguard locks (although you can do this 80+, it was a good leveling build), grabbing Meditation as a leveling Spriest, etc. With the way the talents are now, all you get from whatever subspec is more "useless filler" talents that simply provide flat bonuses. It wouldn't be SO bad if they didn't force you to spend 31p before you sub-spec, but the way it is now you have almost no choice in how you spend your talents beyond "I want to play an enhance shaman".

There was no interesting offspec decision to make for any of my characters, I'm not sure what you played but protection (or arms) warrior, elemental (or resto) shaman, arcane mage, and balance (or resto) druid had no meaningful secondary tree choices. I don't recall anything meaningful on my ret paladin either but I didn't play him all that much.

I have only capped my protection warrior this time around but there are definitely choices to be made in my secondary trees that have at least as much value as they did under the last model. PVP and PVE specs are still different, too, so it isn't like that went away. What went away is "I have to play my shaman to level 50 before my spec feels different than the others". A++ for that.

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Reply #54 on: January 27, 2011, 04:35:27 PM

You could argue that Arms with Deathwish was viable.  It wasn't what I would call interesting.
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Reply #55 on: January 27, 2011, 04:46:38 PM

As much as I dislike Cata I ended up loving what they did with the talent trees. The old ones were just too big, and even though you could have some wacko builds, it led to alot of talents being nerfed because a spec that wasn't designed for it could take it.

As for druid tanks, mastery is not junk, but it's not great either. Dodge is far superior, and even crit comes near it as a defensive stat. Due to the way it works, it also has a soft cap: because a hit will consume it whether it's for 1 damage, or how much the hit actually is, there is no point in stacking more of it then the content you are in hits for.

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Reply #56 on: January 27, 2011, 05:06:23 PM

While they made Holy Priests a lot more fun to play, they did not achieve this by making the Holy tree fun in any way. There's only 37 points you can take in the tree max, and the points you don't take are talents that are literally dire (i.e. nobody takes). Before the revamp you could build a holy priest in several different and fairly distinct ways; now there is one way to spec and that's it. The upside to the talent revamp is the change such that the first row in every tree provides benefits for any member of that class.

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Reply #57 on: January 31, 2011, 12:46:41 PM

I've gotten the hang of my hunter and mage again, was curious, if I was to try playing a tank, would it be better to try Paladin, Warrior, or Death Knight?  I like the idea of Warrior with protection or fury, but the utility of the other two classes looks interesting, but then I'd have to learn healing as a paladin.  DPS or tanking would be more my style, so I think I might try that, is the shaman enhancement any good at tanking or is it more like dps-meele w/ the ability to heal or range attack options?
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Reply #58 on: January 31, 2011, 12:52:54 PM

I've gotten the hang of my hunter and mage again, was curious, if I was to try playing a tank, would it be better to try Paladin, Warrior, or Death Knight?  I like the idea of Warrior with protection or fury, but the utility of the other two classes looks interesting, but then I'd have to learn healing as a paladin.  DPS or tanking would be more my style, so I think I might try that, is the shaman enhancement any good at tanking or is it more like dps-meele w/ the ability to heal or range attack options?


Enhancement can't tank except in really trivial sorts of situations. I prefer the paladin or warrior to the DK mechanically, so I'd go with one of those, but it is more a matter of taste than anything. Also, Paladins can DPS as retribution, you wouldn't have to learn to heal.

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Reply #59 on: January 31, 2011, 01:20:04 PM

Play a DPS dk for a bit.  If you don't like the mechanics for DPS you'll hate them as a tank.   For starting off I'd go with Pally, myself.  At least they have 3 roles instead of 2, so if you discover you dislike tanking you're not stuck with only being another DPS in the crowd.

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Reply #60 on: January 31, 2011, 02:10:14 PM

Yup.  Same rationale for trying a druid.

Plus, a druid can take two types of DPS.

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Reply #61 on: January 31, 2011, 02:19:29 PM

True.. 3 specs, 4 roles. Bastards.

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Reply #62 on: January 31, 2011, 03:40:32 PM

3 specs, 4 roles, only 1 toolbar (out of 5) that changes with your forms.  Pain in the butt.

I've (re-)discovered that I suck at melee, and the reason why is because with a ranged character I can see the spell fly over and hit and can thus chain/rotate them properly, but in melee range such feedback is lost in the crowd so I end up spamming random buttons.
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Reply #63 on: January 31, 2011, 04:20:12 PM

Have gotten my mage up to 63 and am branching out with a couple of alts...rogue and warrior. I went subtlety with the rogue (only 11th level atm)- is that viable for leveling? All this has changed since I played last. How about for the warrior? Going to be level 10 now and locking myself into a tree- any suggestions? I am leaning toward arms, since I like big giant 2h weapons (and my main has a shitton of 2h enchants). Speaking of enchants, wow is nice to twink with them...huge differences at low levels. Of course, I will outlevel the equipment sooner than later, but the enchants make it last a little longer and make it not nearly as miserable as a lowbie.

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Reply #64 on: January 31, 2011, 04:28:02 PM

3 specs, 4 roles, only 1 toolbar (out of 5) that changes with your forms.  Pain in the butt.
If you use Bartender, you can have any of your bars change with your form. Even works for non-druids who have "forms" like shadow priests.

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Reply #65 on: January 31, 2011, 04:54:07 PM

3 specs, 4 roles, only 1 toolbar (out of 5) that changes with your forms.  Pain in the butt.
If you use Bartender, you can have any of your bars change with your form. Even works for non-druids who have "forms" like shadow priests.


THIS

Seriously, I COULD NOT handle the drood after a certain level and was going nuts due to the forms and toolbars, so I got Bartender 'just for the drood'.  It only took 3 days before I'd configured it for all my chars.

It's GREAT, particularly for a Drood.

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Reply #66 on: January 31, 2011, 05:05:02 PM

I've gotten the hang of my hunter and mage again, was curious, if I was to try playing a tank, would it be better to try Paladin, Warrior, or Death Knight?  I like the idea of Warrior with protection or fury, but the utility of the other two classes looks interesting, but then I'd have to learn healing as a paladin.  DPS or tanking would be more my style, so I think I might try that, is the shaman enhancement any good at tanking or is it more like dps-meele w/ the ability to heal or range attack options?


I'd go with Prot Paladin.  Leveling is painless, and I found it to be pretty fun.

I started a Prot Pally just after they released the old world changes prior to Cata, as I was enamored of the idea of playing a Tauren Pally.  All I started with was chest, and shoulder Heirlooms, and one of the hammers, which I ditched at level 20.  Leveling to 60 was completely trivial.  Mulgore > Azhara > Ashenvale > here I did about the first 10 quests each in Stonetalon, and Desolace then I did the quests in Camp Mojache in Feralas then to 1000 Needles, and did the quests on the boat > Fellwood > Winterspring.  I ran a couple dungeons, pvp'd once or twice.  Going to Outlands, I did the Blood Elf quests in Hellfire, and the Troll & Neutral Horde camp in Zangarmarsh, and also some quests in Nagrand.  Other than that it was running Hellfire dungeons for rep.  70 - 80 was Borean Tundra, and Howling Fjord, and running the dungeons.

All told, it probably took me 4 days played to 80, maybe 5, but I was far from being efficient.  I rarely drop below 80% health, unless I am soloing elites, or large groups.  Word of Glory, prior to hitting 80 and dipping into the Cata gear, is just that good.  Avenger's Shield/Judgement to pull, Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous x 3, WoG.  Rinse/Repeat.  With Seal of Insight, and normal tank related damage reduction from armor, parry, dodge and block, I rarely have to worry about health/mana.

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Reply #67 on: January 31, 2011, 06:28:02 PM

I'd go with the DK, simply because you can get a good number of your abilities fairly quickly and can figure out if you like it or not.  There's no need to play to 30 or 40 to figure out you don't like what you have.  If the DK isn't your thing, then try one of those other two.

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Reply #68 on: January 31, 2011, 06:30:44 PM

If it comes down to Druid tank or pally tank I would go with the pally (I mean that literally, that's what I did). The druid tank has essentially what amounts to one button, and all other buttons are just there to augment it.

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Reply #69 on: February 01, 2011, 12:32:41 AM

3 specs, 4 roles, only 1 toolbar (out of 5) that changes with your forms.  Pain in the butt.
If you use Bartender, you can have any of your bars change with your form. Even works for non-druids who have "forms" like shadow priests.
If you don't use a barmod or are like me and can't spare the extra bars (I am crazy and have I think 8 hotbars showing at a time) you can just macro your abilities. Like so.
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