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Author Topic: The Dark Knight Rises  (Read 108166 times)
Riggswolfe
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Reply #455 on: September 08, 2012, 09:55:59 PM

Yea I didn't dislike Michael Keaton after I saw the movie. I did dislike the choice when it was first announced though. And I really didn't like Burton doing it, nor the result. I don't know why he keeps getting gigs. He needs to be a video game world designer or a IP world builder or something that focuses on the thing he loves doing (set pieces) instead of the everything-else he isn't good at.

That is more or less how I reacted to Keaton as well as Ledger when he was announced as the Joker. I was proven wrong both times.

 As for Burton, he reminds me of John Carpenter in that they were both good directors at one time but both of them have lost whatever it was that made them good. Say what you want about Burton but Edward Scissorhands, Beetlejuice, and Ed Wood are very good movies IMO. After that though he lost whatever it was he had at one point.


Yeah, Burton's take on Batman was a goddamn joke. The first one was closer to the source material than any of the three that followed but it still had too much of Burton's stink on it. Keaton did a fantastic job with the role, and he was actually better as Bruce Wayne in Returns than the original but he had more of a conflicted role with the romance with Selina Kyle than Vicki Vale. Returns works great if you just take out all the parts with costumes in it - the scene with Kyle and Wayne dancing is one of the most perfect moments of cinematic genius I've ever seen. The rest of the movie is Burton taking a steaming dump on the entire Batman mythos. I can appreciate the first Batman movie for what it is, but it doesn't age well.

Eh, I enjoy the first one as a good example of a super hero movie from that time period. The 2nd one was where it began to go off the rails and I don't know if I blame that on Burton or Warner Bros as clearly things got much worse after he left. I totally agree that the best parts of Returns are with Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle as opposed to most of the super hero parts of the movie.

Quote
As for Selina Kyle "settling" for Bruce Wayne, I don't think she does. Her whole reason for doing what she does during the entire movie is to scrub her criminal past. She clearly wants to get a fresh start, to escape who and what she has been and will do anything to get that. She'll do anything to get it, even set up the Batman, who she didn't know was Wayne. When she finds out, she's remorseful. Being trapped in a Gotham that has gone 99% crazy, she starts to see what the "do what I want to please myself" thing has done to her reflected in the chaos of Gotham. That's why she risks herself to save Batman and Gotham. I think her character has a lot more nuance than you give her credit for.

Yeah, I can see her character arc I suppose I just don't see why those two would end up together based purely on what happens in the movie. As a comics reader I can see it, but approaching it from what I see in the movie I just don't buy it. That's my objection to it.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sheepherder
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Reply #456 on: September 09, 2012, 02:49:25 AM

In TDK, Heath Ledger performance renders Nicholson's take as amateur hour.

TDK would be an entirely forgettable movie except for Ledger.
Llyse
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Reply #457 on: September 09, 2012, 06:23:57 AM


TDK would be an entirely forgettable movie except for Ledger.

I thought Harvey Dent was awesome
cmlancas
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Reply #458 on: September 10, 2012, 09:18:07 AM

In TDK, Heath Ledger performance renders Nicholson's take as amateur hour.

TDK would be an entirely forgettable movie except for Ledger.

Do what?  While I am not here to diminish Ledger's performance (on opening night, I was clamoring for an Oscar for him), Gordon and Joker are both played very well.

Also, prisoner's dilemma scene, Joker capture scene, and Harvey's downfall are all excellent.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #459 on: September 10, 2012, 09:59:14 AM

As for how you see Pfeiffer's Catwoman as restrained... really? At one point in the movie, SHE LICKS HERSELF AND FUCKING MEOWS. While her performance was good, the whole part was campy as hell and would have fit right in alongside Adam West's Batman.
Really all three previous Cat Women were more appealing and less campy than Pfeiffer.  And that show was all about camp.

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shiznitz
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Reply #460 on: September 10, 2012, 12:40:58 PM

I'm not sure what people were expecting with Catwoman.  

Maybe a cat-ish woman.  I agree with the previously proffered sentiment that any average Hollywood actress could have delivered Nolan's Catwoman.  I extolled Hathaway's beauty in the movie because I had never prior thought her as striking.

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Minvaren
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Reply #461 on: September 10, 2012, 07:39:18 PM

Hathaway seemed positively subdued compared to prior Catwomen...  which worked both for and against her, from my point of view.

Granted, a real Selena Kyle would be subdued enough to make it into security zones and brazen enough to make it out No Matter What(tm).  But there's an element of bragging about her MO, which the most recent movie seemed to lack.  

Assertiveness?  Yes.  Bragging?  No.

(edit: grammerz)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:36:18 AM by Minvaren »

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Sheepherder
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Reply #462 on: September 10, 2012, 08:38:25 PM

I thought Harvey Dent was awesome
Do what?  While I am not here to diminish Ledger's performance (on opening night, I was clamoring for an Oscar for him), Gordon and Joker are both played very well.

Also, prisoner's dilemma scene, Joker capture scene, and Harvey's downfall are all excellent.

They're good, but it's still not something I think I'd go out of my way to see again if not for the fact that they have a excellent villain.  It sort of makes the movie, in my opinion.
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Reply #463 on: September 11, 2012, 06:11:23 AM

The Joker hides the numerous flaws of "TDK". "TDKR" just didn't quite have that edge or something that grabbed people's attention as much.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #464 on: September 11, 2012, 08:55:04 AM

I don't think I'd agree. Dark Knight is a much better scripted movie than TDKR all around. Sure, Ledger's performance added a lot to the movie. Had the joker been performed to the same level as Nicholson did in '89 TDK wouldn't have been as good of a movie but I still think the script was good enough to stand on its own.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
cmlancas
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Reply #465 on: September 12, 2012, 09:50:05 AM

I thought Harvey Dent was awesome
Do what?  While I am not here to diminish Ledger's performance (on opening night, I was clamoring for an Oscar for him), Gordon and Joker are both played very well.

Also, prisoner's dilemma scene, Joker capture scene, and Harvey's downfall are all excellent.

They're good, but it's still not something I think I'd go out of my way to see again if not for the fact that they have a excellent villain.  It sort of makes the movie, in my opinion.

YMMV, but I couldn't help thinking of Haem's grief title when they handed the detonators to each ship and they didn't blow.   DRILLING AND MANLINESS

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eldaec
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Reply #466 on: September 12, 2012, 02:44:34 PM

Oh, there was sexual chemistry for sure but that ending scene more or less implied that she was who Wayne settled down with which didn't fit her character and wasn't really supported on-screen.

So taking a character who was motivated by escape from the authorities, the mob and her current persona, and who respected Wayne/Batman but thought every other man she met in the film was worthless, and who said earlier to Batman 'hey fuck these guys lets elope'; you don't think it is reasonable that she would take up an opportunity to escape from the authorities, mob, and catwoman with Wayne/Batman, who incidentally had just demonstrated that he trusts her with the lives of half of Gotham, and also that he too would do anything to permanently escape his current life?


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #467 on: September 12, 2012, 05:08:50 PM

The ending didn't fit the traditional catwoman but it fit perfectly with nolan's

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Khaldun
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Reply #468 on: September 12, 2012, 06:44:39 PM

It fits versions of Catwoman just fine, if you're talking comics. There's one long-standing version where Catwoman and Batman get married and their daughter is the Huntress (the old Earth-2 continuity), a version of which has been restored recently.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #469 on: September 13, 2012, 11:54:17 AM

Oh, there was sexual chemistry for sure but that ending scene more or less implied that she was who Wayne settled down with which didn't fit her character and wasn't really supported on-screen.

So taking a character who was motivated by escape from the authorities, the mob and her current persona, and who respected Wayne/Batman but thought every other man she met in the film was worthless, and who said earlier to Batman 'hey fuck these guys lets elope'; you don't think it is reasonable that she would take up an opportunity to escape from the authorities, mob, and catwoman with Wayne/Batman, who incidentally had just demonstrated that he trusts her with the lives of half of Gotham, and also that he too would do anything to permanently escape his current life?



In a word: No. It felt forced like a lot of things in the movie did.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sheepherder
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Reply #470 on: September 18, 2012, 12:22:48 AM

YMMV, but I couldn't help thinking of Haem's grief title when they handed the detonators to each ship and they didn't blow.   DRILLING AND MANLINESS

I was somewhat disappointed that both ships didn't blow.
Rendakor
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Reply #471 on: September 20, 2012, 12:53:30 AM

YMMV, but I couldn't help thinking of Haem's grief title when they handed the detonators to each ship and they didn't blow.   DRILLING AND MANLINESS

I was somewhat disappointed that both ships didn't blow.
Yea I was pretty upset that they weren't on a timer, but instead had to be hand triggered (particularly because it felt cheap when they blew up both buildings with Rachel and Dent).

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cmlancas
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Reply #472 on: September 21, 2012, 05:45:37 AM

I think the movie is much, much darker when "ordinary people" begin killing each other en masse.  As a plot device it's signalling the Joker's fear campaign is slipping.

But, it does fly in the face of game theory.   DRILLING AND MANLINESS

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Venkman
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Reply #473 on: December 09, 2012, 07:24:28 AM

The Joker hides the numerous flaws of "TDK". "TDKR" just didn't quite have that edge or something that grabbed people's attention as much.
Totally agree. Finally watched this, and even with this thread preparing me, I found the movie pretty weak.

I assume we're passed the Spoilers stage given the age of the movie, but just in case:

*** SPOILERS MAY COME ***

Lots of my complaints have been mentioned already. What bothered me most though were:

  • Very little gadgetry. Considering that stupid suit couldn't even stop a knife, there was little evidence it had any other redeeming values for how expensive it was.
  • Batman's two fights with Bane. Here again: gadgets. Especially in the first one. Arkham Asylum Batman woulda kicked his ass with all those platforms and girders to swing around. But worse, he then goes back again for the exact same fight and gets pummelled the exact same way? Nice throwback to Dark Knight Returns with that prosthetic leg though.
  • The MacGuffin. Yes, track the bomb and block the signal. But then how about blocking the transmitter signal too? Just put a second EM device where you assume it was (Bane) and be pre-adapted for the surprise reveal of Tate because she was there anyway.
  • I kinda get the destruction of Bruce Wayne as a proxy for turning off the faucet of Batman toys. But since Bane made that connection, why not take all of Batman's toys too before breaking him.
  • I never got why he went into seclusion for eight years while funding a fusion power core for five awaiting the somehow-arrival of scientist guy.
  • Alfred: 8 years of living with a shut in and all in one week the complaints about his lifestyle, the truth about his girlfriend, and the dissolution of a promise made to Thomas Wayne all unravel?
  • All the rest of the complaints here about squeaky-clean well-fed officers emerging from 3 months of tunnel living and Selena Kyle's kinda weak character.

My biggest complaint was Bane though. None of the single-minded charisma of Liam Neeson nor any of the strong acting of Ledger. They use the League of Shadows to make a connection that turns out not really to be there. But every scene with him, from the reveal of his gawdawful voice in the beginning to him trying to rally a crowd (note: they never actually show any crowds he's rallying after the stadium, which itself wasn't really a rally), were the weakest ones in the film. And I just don't get that mask. I liked the way they handled him much more in Knightfall.

I think I appreciate all the closure they tried to bring to this movie. They wanted Wayne to hit rock bottom alongside before finally giving up the life, and to ensure "Batman" lived on. I just don't know that Blake can carry it if they decide to continue this version of the franchise.
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Reply #474 on: August 16, 2013, 02:09:03 PM

Sorry for necro. But somehow nobody seemed to have this complaint and its by far my biggest after seeing the movie at long last.

The biggest flaw this movie had for me, besides the entire cops underground bullshit which led to the horrible large brawl fight was that this movie was in NYC not Gotham. That just was not Gotham in any way shape or form. That was really fucking immersion breaking. The whole US government and special forces thing was immersion breaking enough for me the first time around but I was watching it and the reason I found it so jarring is this movie takes place in New York and makes no attempt to disguise it as anything else. I can ignore horrible plot, I'm an American and I've been trained from an early age but the movie should at least seem like its in the right place surely?

The whole damn movie was too bright, and normal, the buildings weren't tall enough or imposing enough or gothic enough or dark enough. Also the fights did suck ass because no plan no gadgets nothing if the fights didn't suck so badly maybe I wouldn't have noticed how mediocre the movie was for a couple more days.

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HaemishM
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Reply #475 on: August 16, 2013, 02:13:20 PM

Ummm, the movie was filmed in Pittsburgh.

Hoax
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Reply #476 on: August 16, 2013, 02:30:26 PM

Except the shots that were straight up of Manhattan? Like Freedom Tower and all which as far as I could tell at the time looked exactly like the Manhattan I was in a month ago? The whole end of the movie took place in New York for me. Maybe I wasn't feeling like that in the early going I can't say but once it started it was pretty ruinous to my enjoyment.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Malakili
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Reply #477 on: August 17, 2013, 06:23:38 AM

Except the shots that were straight up of Manhattan? Like Freedom Tower and all which as far as I could tell at the time looked exactly like the Manhattan I was in a month ago? The whole end of the movie took place in New York for me. Maybe I wasn't feeling like that in the early going I can't say but once it started it was pretty ruinous to my enjoyment.

Isn't Gotham supposed to be New York anyway?  I mean not explicitly, but I've always assumed that it was basically a fictional New York within the Batman universe.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 06:27:32 AM by Malakili »
Evildrider
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Reply #478 on: August 17, 2013, 06:43:21 AM

Except the shots that were straight up of Manhattan? Like Freedom Tower and all which as far as I could tell at the time looked exactly like the Manhattan I was in a month ago? The whole end of the movie took place in New York for me. Maybe I wasn't feeling like that in the early going I can't say but once it started it was pretty ruinous to my enjoyment.

Isn't Gotham supposed to be New York anyway?  I mean not explicitly, but I've always assumed that it was basically a fictional New York within the Batman universe.

I always thought that Metropolis was the nice version of NYC and Gotham was supposed to be the seedy version of NYC.
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Reply #479 on: August 17, 2013, 07:08:03 AM

I always figured Metropolis was New York and Gotham was Chicago, myself. Its not hard to see that as Batman was conceived when the Mob was still doing its Chicago thing.

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Malakili
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Reply #480 on: August 17, 2013, 09:35:29 AM

Well, my assumption was based on the fact that Gotham is nickname for New York City.
Hoax
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Reply #481 on: August 17, 2013, 09:59:15 AM

Its basically New York but it certainly usually has a lot of changes, its darker, its extra gothic and the buildings are tall and imposing. The landmarks are different, the whole monorail that was used in the first couple of movies. Wayne Tower being the dominant downtown landmark stuff like that. I was starting to feel crazy but I google'd around and there are other people who noticed:

Quote
Gotham City is supposed to be an analogue for New York, but it’s also sort of just Gotham City. The Dark Knight used Chicago as a stand-in, which I thought worked beautifully, but for some reason Dark Knight Rises chose to use New York itself as the setting. And when I say “chose to use,” I don’t mean they filmed a few action scenes in the street (although they did). I mean that at times it felt like half the film was gorgeous, sweeping overheads of Manhattan. You had Manhattan from the east, Manhattan from the south, Manhattan overlooking the lower East River bridges, Manhattan overlooking the 14th St. power station [...]

When you are using an actual iconic city and you are basically going out of your way to make it obvious what city you’re in – there’s even a shot with the Empire State Building in it, for fuck’s sake – you can’t turn around and pretend you’re somewhere else. Every time I was asked to believe increasingly insane fabrications about where I was, it was like the whole film slammed to a halt around me, over and over, and I had to reconstruct my suspension of disbelief. Eventually I sort of stopped trying. Asking me to accept that sort of nonsense for no reason other than you’re too lazy to work around it is an abrogation of the agreement between creator and audience.

This was how I felt. It was obviously Manhattan but we kept calling it Gotham but it kept looking exactly like Manhattan except for when they would randomly add 20 bridges or put an ocean somewhere or remove Queens. I've never even lived there though I've been many times and it was just too fucking jarring for me. Though the fight scenes being awful was a bigger problem I'll concede.

Text is from here which was one of several nerdrage write ups I found, the whole thing is obviously not really worth reading.
http://endsandleavings.wordpress.com/2012/07/21/the-dark-knight-rises-i-would-like-more-attention-to-detail-please/

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Venkman
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Reply #482 on: August 17, 2013, 11:45:41 AM

Yea I always assumed Gotham was NYC too, though I could totally see why people could assume Chicago.It's kind of a hodgepodge of many older cities, though far too big to be a Phillie or Pittsburgh, and none of the grandeur of DC nor the young adult friendly traditionalism of Boston.

But all that aside, The Dark Night clearly established it was NYC with this dialog:

Quote
Harvey Dent
→ Is Wayne Manor in the city limits?

Bruce Wayne
→ The Palisades? Sure. You know, as our new DA, you might want to figure out where your jurisdiction ends.

Palisades are right across the Hudson due south of the Tappan Zee.
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Reply #483 on: August 17, 2013, 02:56:51 PM

Bane's Voice is Just Terrible.

 swamp poop

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eldaec
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Reply #484 on: August 17, 2013, 03:04:17 PM

I didn't mind the voice so much as not being able to see his mouth.

Not really sure why they felt the need to carry over the face mask.

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Evildrider
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Reply #485 on: August 17, 2013, 03:04:54 PM

I didn't mind the voice so much as not being able to see his mouth.

Not really sure why they felt the need to carry over the face mask.

Without the face mask it could have been anyone.
Sir T
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Reply #486 on: August 17, 2013, 08:19:26 PM


Hic sunt dracones.
Rendakor
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Reply #487 on: August 18, 2013, 09:10:00 AM

Bane's Voice is Just Terrible.

 swamp poop
This. Felt like I was watching a bad anime dub.

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Reply #488 on: August 18, 2013, 10:18:31 AM

The Bane voice gave rise to Bane Plays, so I am okay with it.

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Ironwood
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Reply #489 on: August 18, 2013, 12:01:43 PM

Yeah, that's the funniest thing you've ever put on your FB page, I almost wet myself.

Which is why the voice in the actual film fucks me off so much.  It's hilariously cheery.

Hello There, I will bake you a lemon pie and then I'll Kill You !  Herpy Derpy Day !  etc.

Bad voice is bad.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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