HDTVs: LCD, LED or Plasma?

[Salamok]

(Yes.)

Buy now while it is still has a growing featureset, once they run out of crap they can throw on to get people to upgrade they will go the Linksys route of "how can we build in the perfect amount of crapitude to have this product start degrading rapidly after the warranty is up."

[Sheepherder]

Already happening.

[Oban]

Yeah, sub $3k home 3D is not here yet.

[murdoc]

i just picked up this: Samsung 58" Plasma

It's 1.4" thick and handles brighter situations rather well if need be (mine's in my basement, so that wasn't a necessity but is a nice perk).

CNET reviewed it really well and I had my eye on for awhile and it dropped by a third over Canada fake Black Friday.

Super happy with it - now if I could just find some time to watch movies or game on it...

[NiX]

Yeah, sub $3k home 3D is not here yet.

Futureshop and Sony are putting up some crazy bundles for Christmas.

[Sky]

Yeah, sub $3k home 3D is not here yet.

[Comstar]

I just got a Sony LCD 45" with 3D ready - just need to send in the redemption for the free playstation + 3d module + 3d glasses for much less than $3k.

Stay away from Panasonic's at all costs. The time bomb is ticking.

LG's had horrible colors.

I would have got a Samsung if I could afford one.

[Oban]

[Jeff Kelly]

Since I've been in the process of buying a new TV the last weeks I'll add my suggestions and experiences because I now know more about flat TV technology than I ever needed or wanted to know :(.

This will get rather long so if you can't be bothered to read all of my stuff I'll offer a TL;DR summary:

If you can't control the lighting in the room the TV is supposed to go in, if you play lots of video games or if you are overly concerned with your power bill get an LCD TV
If you want the best picture possible and you can control the lighting in your room get a plasma.

If you get an LCD and are on a budget don't get an LED lit LCD. You won't get one without serious brightness 'issues' for less than $1700 (doesn't matter whether it's edge lit or back lit)
If money is no object buy a LED backlit LCD (best option) or an edge lit one (still better than CCFL) if it's not from the entry level line.

Don't bother with 3D if you won't buy a specific panasonic display (VT20 series) because all other makers have serious 'issues' with 3D reproduction, which results in ghost images that can cause headaches and nausea.

Regardless of what you buy get a model that has color and brightness management so that you can calibrate the picture. Even the picture of budget or entry level TVs can be improved greatly when you have that ability.

After much deliberation I've chosen The Samsung UC46C750, which has no LED lighting but offers a great set of features and - at least if the reviews are to be believed - a great picture quality for around $1000. I'd have to spend twice that to get a LED-lit model from the same manufacturer that offers the same picture quality. Just to give you an impression.

Now for the long part.

You basically have the choice of buying either a Plasma or LCD TV. (well, duh)

An LCD is basically a matrix of liquid crystal pixels, each pixels made up of three - or in the case of Sharp's TVs - four sub pixels for red green and blue respectively. An LCD always needs a light source because the pixels do not emit light on their own. The direction of the crystals controls the amount of light that can pass through the sub pixel, this is used to create all of the different colors. The light passing through an LCD is heavily polarized and directed so the makers employ different technologies to make the panels viewable from angles by different control schemes and filter foils. Usually what technology the maker chose to achieve this shouldn't matter (and will usually not be mentioned) but each technology has different advantages and drawbacks. (one of those technologies is
usually meant when you encounter names like TN- or IPS-Panels)

The main difference of LCD panels is how the lighting works. You either have the choice of compact cathode fluorescent lighting (CCFL) or lighting with light emitting diodes (LED). LED backlighting offers a wider color gamut than CCFL, making this - in theory - a better choice because it improves color reproduction (and also has other advantages which I'll get to in a moment), however LED lighting has some drawbacks.

LCDs are usually backlit because this is the best way to achieve a (near) uniform distribution of brightness. The eye notices changes in brightness much better than changes in color so it's usually a good idea to keep variances in brightness to a minimum. Backlit displays are easy with CCFLs but not with LEDs. Usually one or two CCF-lamps are sufficient but LEDs are small and only emit primary colors (red green or blue) so you need three LEDs to create white light (white LEDs have been recently introduced by Philips but they haven't made their way into LCD backlights yet) and you'd need a lot of them to build a backlit display. Then you'd have to fine tune the light output of each diode to achieve uniform brightness across the TV, which makes LED backlit displays rather expensive.

So in order to cut costs the manufacturers offer LED edge lit displays. There the light source sits on the edges of the TV instead of at the back. The light is then distributed across the display by light distribution foils. If this is not done correctly then the display is noticeably brighter near the edges (where the lamps sit) and darker in the middle or it has really bright spots. These effects are called 'clouding' or 'flashlights' and this affects quite a number of budget LED TVs. (budget being the range up to $1500 for LED lit TVs of a decent size).

A display with LED backlight offers the best picture of all LCD types not only because of the wider color gamut but also because there is no single light source (as with CCFLs) each LED or LED segment can be turned off and on individually, improving contrast significantly. (Dark segments of a movie are really dark). They are also very energy efficient but rather expensive.

Plasma TVs on the other hand don't need backlights. They consist of small pixels that in essence are very small cathode ray tubes. Just like in an old TV each pixel has an electrode,  is either evacuated or filled with some sort of noble gas and has a phosphorous coating. By regulating the current applied to each cell the strength of the electron beam is controlled which in turn controls the color and brightness of the light emitted by each cell making each pixel in essence phosphorescent - as opposed to LCDs which need to be lit by an external source.

Plasmas still offer the best color reproduction and contrast levels. A black pixel in a plasma display is really turned off, while a black pixel in an LCD just means that the crystals don't let any (or at least nearly no) light pass, which isn't the same (a small amount of light 'bleeds through' the crystals because the lamp lighting the display is still on).

However plasma displays are much less bright than LCDs making them less suited for conditions where there is a lot of ambient light. Also the phosphorus coating 'ages' and it doesn't age evenly in each pixel but rather depending on how the pixel was used. A usually bright pixel ages faster than a a usually dark one, a pixel that has o show a certain color more than others ages more than a pixel that had to show colors more evenly and so on.

This can lead to an effect that is called "burn in". You basically get ghost images from content that was shown for along time. This is usually noticeable most with TV logos or HUD elements from video games (that's why US stations now refrain from showing their logos all the time or use transparent ones). If you know a place that uses those displays to show business news (with the band on the bottom showing breaking news or stock prices) you can usually notice it.

Manufacturers of current generation plasma displays claim that their devices don't suffer from burn in but people on the forums still notice the effect. While it may not be permanent the effect can last for days or weeks or might even only be removed by displaying an all white screen for a long period of time. Lastly plasmas consume a lot more energy than LCDs (especially LED LCDs) especially when they have to be bright.

So after a rather long exposition what would be my recommendation:

If you can't control the lighting in your room (room is bright or sunlight shines on the display from the windows) are concerned about your power bill or if you use it  lot for gaming buy an LCD.
If you want the best picture possible and you can control the lighting conditions in your room buy a plasma display. Also large display sizes are cheaper with plasma display.

If you chose an LCD there are still a few things to consider:

If you are on a budget don't buy an LCD with LED backlighting. You won't get LED backlighting under $2500 and you won't get decent edge lit displays under $1700 (The Samsung C8000 or Sony HX800 series are considered entry level as far as decent edge lit TVs are concerned). CCFL lighting might offer you only a smaller color space but you might not even notice the difference if you you are not a BluRay junkie and it is a matured technology.

If money is no object go for LED back lit displays or LED edge lit displays if they are not from the entry level line (but prepare to at least spend $2000 or more for a decent one)

As far as 3D is concerned. Right now there is only a single line that offers decent 3D support, which would be the Panasonic VT20 series of plasma displays. If you want the best picture and best (or only decet) 3d support get that one. Every other 3d-enabled model currently on the market has serious issues with crosstalk (pictures that are supposed for one eye are captured by the other one) which results in ghost images and can cause serious nausea and headaches. So if you won't get the Panasonic (which is a great plasma display) just don't bother at the moment.

[Polysorbate80]

Or just get a DLP, spend half the money and get all the features you want, with the downside of it not being flat. 

Sky & his pet TV? 

[Tannhauser]

That TV has a series of tubes, if you will.

Seriously though, great pic.

[Jeff Kelly]

I sometimes forget that America is different. Seriously the US is the only country where there is still a market for rear projection TVs (what Sky calls DLP). The only thing rear projection TVs have going for them is price. You won't get larger size for less money anywhere else. As far as dimensions go the picture of the GE TV is not that far off though, those things are huge and the picture is not that great either.

Also every video game manual I know of has the 'don't run this game on a rear projection TV' disclaimer printed in it. (I don't know if it is  a valid concern since those things aren't even sold in europe anymore)

[Chimpy]

Old old rear projection TVs had burn-in issues. The modern ones are considerably different in technology and I do not think they have any bigger issues with burn in than any other TV technology out today.

[Sky]

Yes, that's a warning for CRT rear-projection. DLP is a whole different thing.

Sorry the rest of the world has to overpay for tv sets :p (I call it DLP because that's what they're called). And no, for dimensions, that picture is way off (I did get a chuckle out of it, though). I hope you're thinking of the old CRT RPTVs when you say the picture isn't good, otherwise 

But to be seriously for the minute, part of the reason I tend to soapbox over DLP is the misinformation and 7 years of great gaming on a DLP set. I honestly don't know why they get such a bad rap, it's great technology (especially for gamers).

Look at the bezel on this thing, it's about a half inch!

[NiX]

Look at the bezel on this thing, it's about a half inch!

Heh, that's a very flattering angle.

So, boxing day sales came out and here's the 3 I'd consider:

Samsung 50" 720p 600hz 3D Plasma - link - $699

Panasonic 50" 720p 600hz - link - $599

LG 50" 1080p Plasma - link - $699

Not sure if they'll have more on sale or if what's listed in the flyer is it.

[Jeff Kelly]

The Samsung and Panasonic panels only do the small HDTV resolution (720p), frankly I didn't think that they still sold such TVs. What's even more shocking is that these are 2010 model and not older ones sold at a bargain price. They are also only available in north america, you won't even find those models on the international web sites of those manufacturers.

If you want a big display on a budget those two might be OK. Keep in mind however that broadcast TV resolution and the native resolution of BluRy content is 1080. (Although for sports 720p would be a better choice). The way broadcast TV is produced however you might not notice the resolution on a 1080 display however so I won't throw it out on that alone. If you plan on watching a lot of BluRays or mostly the better produced channels like NatGeo HD consider a 1080 display.

More importantly since the panels are only 720p the pixel sizes are larger than on a 1080 panel of the same size so you'd have to be farther away from the TV to not notice the individual pixels.

Rule of thumb is that the distance between you and the panel should be at a minimum 1.5 times the diagonal size for 1080p, for 720p displays it should be twice the diagonal size (100''). If you sit closer you might notice pixelation if you sit much farther away you won't benefit from the higher resolution (your eye won't notice the details)

However for a few bucks more than that you'll get something that is much more current tech.

[edit] note to self: feet and inches are not the same.

[Jeff Kelly]

But to be seriously for the minute, part of the reason I tend to soapbox over DLP is the misinformation and 7 years of great gaming on a DLP set. I honestly don't know why they get such a bad rap, it's great technology (especially for gamers).

Because CRT rear projectors are huge and have bad picture quality and until recently DLP rear projectors only did 720p resolution (or were ridiculously expensive with 1080p). Just look at DLP front projectors, you pay top dollar for a decent 1080p capable model. Cheap models tend to give you noticeable rainbow patterns (projection artifacts from the mirror assemblies of the DLP projection unit)

I have to say however that I'm not current as far as that technology is concerned because it is no longer available in Europe. My biggest issue however would be the additional cost of replacing the lamps, which last about as long as front projector lamps (2000 to 5000 hours) and cost a couple of hundred dollars. What are your experiences with that?

Also only two makers of DLP rear projectors are left (Mitsubishi and Samsung)

[Oban]

This is the boxing day trick that Future Shop and its owner, Best Buy, play in Canada.  They acquire substandard electronics from major manufacturers that can not be price matched elsewhere and then offload them on to the unsuspecting masses.  

720p is not what you want.  

Wait about a month for the super bowl sales to start and pick up a set with 1080p.  

3D is really not here yet for living rooms. Unless you enjoy blurs, headaches, motion sickness, and other wonderful side effects of the current sub-standard technologies that are available for less than 3k.

[NiX]

Can do! Guess I'll be sleeping in for boxing day.

[Trippy]

If you want a big display on a budget those two might be OK. Keep in mind however that broadcast TV resolution and the native resolution of BluRy content is 1080. (Although for sports 720p would be a better choice). The way broadcast TV is produced however you might not notice the resolution on a 1080 display however so I won't throw it out on that alone. If you plan on watching a lot of BluRays or mostly the better produced channels like NatGeo HD consider a 1080 display.

In the US FOX and ABC broadcast in 720p while NBC and CBS broadcast in 1080i. I don't know what things are like in Canada but I would assume there's probably some mixture of formats there as well. That being said there's no reason to get a 720p HDTV unless you are getting a teeny tiny HDTV and even then it's debatable.

[Sky]

My biggest issue however would be the additional cost of replacing the lamps, which last about as long as front projector lamps (2000 to 5000 hours) and cost a couple of hundred dollars. What are your experiences with that?

Also only two makers of DLP rear projectors are left (Mitsubishi and Samsung)

I had my 720p set since 2003, I replaced the lamp three times (the last time to sell it, so two lamps used in 7 years). First lamp was free under warranty, second one I paid $100, third I paid $80. Lamp life is around 6000 hours, 3-1/2 years per lamp for me. Given the amount you're saving vs any other tech at the same feature set, $180 over seven years is nothing.

You could do worse than Samsung and Mitsubishi, both have been solid sets, though I'd buy a Samsung over a Mistu most days. Anyway, you seems to have no idea what you're talking about with DLP, so please stop.

Sorry to jack up your thread clearing this stuff up, NiX. Just wanted you to keep an open mind about DLP, since price was an issue.

[Oban]

Looks like BB Canada is starting the Superbowl sales early this year.

[NiX]

Looks like BB Canada is starting the Superbowl sales early this year.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Oban]

I am thinking about picking this one up for my son's room and it seems to fit your criteria as well:

[NiX]

The edge lit scares me. I was looking at this one. Not sure if there's a catch.

Actually, this one looks decent too.

You know, bigger than you think you need and all.

[Oban]

Personally I avoid LG electronics and, other than penis size, bigger is not always better.

Reviews on those two are not so good, but your call

[Jeff Kelly]

I wouldn't buy LED edge-lit LCDs at that price. The 5 series is the entry level range of Samsung and even the 6 and 7 series edge-lit models have serious clouding issues.

[Oban]

Seems like Consumer Reports disagrees with you.

[Jeff Kelly]

I don't really care.

I can point you to a dozen threads at avsforums and elsewhere with people complaining about clouding and ghosting issues with their series 6 and 7 TVs. It's also the number one issue for most of the reviews I've read in German magazines and online. I've even noticed it myself with the C7700 Model I ordered but have since returned, it's also not just a Samsung issue.

[Oban]

Ok but you realize we are not talking about the 6 and 7 series, yes?  The reviews are highly specific since the panels/components/assembly is different even within a line. 

Also, avsforums      Far be it for me to point out the advantages of CR versus an online forum.

[rattran]

I find avsforum to be more reliable than CR. Sure, there's plenty of neckbearded insanity, but plenty of good, accurate info.

[Jeff Kelly]

Ok but you realize we are not talking about the 6 and 7 series, yes?  The reviews are highly specific since the panels/components/assembly is different even within a line. 

Yeah but my point is that if they don't get it consistently right in their more expensive lines then chances are that it's not better in the entry level line.

We are talking about the first or maybe second generation of TVs with that kind of backlight and technical problems that all manufacturers are dealing with to some degree.

For that price you'd get much more bang for your bucks if you'd choose a conventional back lit display and the difference is not that dramatic either between an LED and CCFL back lit panel. In daily use you'll notice uneven light distribution more than a somewhat larger possible color space. That's because chroma (the color info) is more compressed than luminosity and because the eye is much more sensitive to changes in brightness than color.

[Soulflame]

My only TV advice is, don't overspend. There's so much innovation in TVs now that in a few years, you'll be wishing you had something newer. Buy something modest so that you won't feel bad about upgrading down the line.

(It's funny, my parents just replaced their old TV that they had owned for more than 20 years. Can any of us imagine owning the same TV for 20 years?)

Our current television is about 17 years old.

[NiX]

Tax Return comes this week, so it's finally TV time. Sadly I missed out on a deal for a 55" 120HZ Samsung for $1200 over the weekend.

I was looking at the Samsung LN46C610 (Link). Seems like a good deal, though I get my tax return the same day all of the new flyers drop for stores, so I might have to wait. Any suggestion based on the recent batch of TVs that have or will be coming out after CES?

[Yegolev]

I got tax return but my wife eated it.