StarCraft II

[Margalis]

Anyways, trying to get my act together in practice games before I tackle multiplayer.  I thought I'd give the Zerg a try, since it seems to be what all the cool kids are going, but is it just me, or are they like ten times harder to macro than every other race?  As the Protoss or Terrans I can just hit the hotkey for my base and tap "E" or "S" a couple times every time I hear the "worker finished" bloop, and my economy is fine without me doing anything (minus some chronoboosting for the Protoss).  As the Zerg, though, you gotta know when larvae are spawning and then you gotta morph all the ones you need to Drones and then you have to assign each individual drone to a task, plus you have to move your Overlords around to spread creep and keep your Queens spawning larvae and creep colonies

It's not just you.

The Zerg macro mechanic is basically broken. It requires constant attention and has zero margin for error but also zero decision making. In theory there are at least minor decisions you could make like "maybe I should save this energy for a creep tumor" but building another queen is the right answer 99% of the time. It's really a terrible mechanic, it's completely rote and unforgiving. Whereas something like Chrono Boost is both forgiving and interesting.

As Zerg you have to stay super busy spreading creep, positioning lings and overlords all over the map, constantly spawning larva, etc. Compared to the other races there is a ton of busy work. One of the reasons Zerg are considered weak right now is that the relative concentration and energy investment is so high and the return isn't there.

I play Zerg almost exclusively and I like Zerg but I do often feel that I have to maintain twice the APM of an opponent to play even.

[Malakili]

I'm seeing a TON of early all in stuff lately in Platinum, anyone else seeing similar things in other leagues?   I've heard that churning out tons of games where you just do all ins every game and have a ~8 minute turn around is a really addicting way to play, and gets you a decent score on the ladder, so many thats my answer, but it seems like these people are just going to have their 5 minutes of fame atop their division before getting outpaced by the people who are working on their long term skills.

[Fordel]

Anyways, trying to get my act together in practice games before I tackle multiplayer.  I thought I'd give the Zerg a try, since it seems to be what all the cool kids are going, but is it just me, or are they like ten times harder to macro than every other race?  As the Protoss or Terrans I can just hit the hotkey for my base and tap "E" or "S" a couple times every time I hear the "worker finished" bloop, and my economy is fine without me doing anything (minus some chronoboosting for the Protoss).  As the Zerg, though, you gotta know when larvae are spawning and then you gotta morph all the ones you need to Drones and then you have to assign each individual drone to a task, plus you have to move your Overlords around to spread creep and keep your Queens spawning larvae and creep colonies.  I don't know if I'm overcomplicating the Zerg or missing some major aspect of Terran/Protoss play, but it's getting crazy.  I can completely stomp the AI as Terrans or Protoss, but as Zerg they routinely roll right into my base when I'm trying to sort out my army of Drones and Queens and Overlords and only have a half dozen Zerglings.  Ugh.

The story stuff is basically "lolmetzen" in full effect. They TELL you one thing, but show you something else entirely. Almost nothing is internally consistent in any Blizzard game and people/places/technology do exactly what the next mission requires for justification, not what they 'should' do as characters or anything.

That, or they do whatever Metzen thinks is awesome that particular week of writing.



Mechanics wise, the Zerg is just that different from the other two, which is sorta the point. I don't really 'get' the zerg either, I'm always floundering all over myself whenever I try to play them. "I have no workers, now I have 500 workers, where is all my money, why do I have so much money in the bank?". I'm never smooth with the Zerg.

[rk47]

*snickers* yeah, reminds me of teaching my friends how to play them the first time after a phone call.

'Hey man, why aren't these spawning pool building units? Wtf?'

'Gee, since hatchery can build all units in one building, Zerg's so much efficient than other race. IMBALANCED!'

[Malakili]

Mechanics wise, the Zerg is just that different from the other two, which is sorta the point. I don't really 'get' the zerg either, I'm always floundering all over myself whenever I try to play them. "I have no workers, now I have 500 workers, where is all my money, why do I have so much money in the bank?". I'm never smooth with the Zerg.

Yeah, it just isn't very intuitive compared to the other other two. Oh hey, a barracks, soldiers come from it, cool.  Oh hey a spawning pool, zerg spawns from i...oh wait.

[kildorn]

The queen SPAWN LARVA is what messes with my head.

Okay, so I sort of get the timing of when I make new units. Now let's add in having to run back and clicky a thing to make this better, and if you screw up the timing a bit you wind up with a larva here, and larva there, 3 in that mini spa.. god damnit zerg!

[Fordel]

I think probably one of the better ways to just learn the basics of Zerg, is to only one base for awhile. Once you get a handle on the droneing/unit balance of one hatch, THEN you can try running an expansion.

Which is itself counter intuitive, since the Zerg are all about swarming across every base on the map.


Damn zerg, just so weird!

[K9]

The gameplay which makes Zerg so different is what makes them so fun though.

[Fordel]

The gameplay which makes Zerg so different is what makes them so fun though.

Oh no doubt! It's also why I really enjoy the Warpgate mechanic on Protoss as well, really gives them their own feel that is distinct from Terran too. (to? too? I never get those right)

[Trippy]

too ~= also

[Ironwood]

Jings.  That's new.

http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2401

And a Tube for the SC2 impaired :  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fIFL-D-2fY

[apocrypha]

Jings.  That's new.

http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2401

And a Tube for the SC2 impaired :  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fIFL-D-2fY

Cannot watch. Commentator too annoying.

[K9]

Yeah, he's really irritating

[Ironwood]

Wouldn't know, watched the replay.  Common sense suggests to me that the Mute button should be employed and you can make the zergy noises yourself.  It's what I do.

[K9]

AskJoshy has cast all of the group stage games from the IEM tournament

He's a pretty decent commentator, very similar to HD, not at all annoying.

[Mosesandstick]

Thanks for the channel K9, about to lose the rest of my evening.

From Idra vs. Silver Game 2:

Idra: 4 terrans top 8
Idra: you beat me
Idra: drewbie beat huk
Idra: makes perfect sense
Silver: what you want me to say ??
Idra: apologize for playing that race
Silver: man i'm just playing the game
Idra: and taking wins you dont deserve
Silver: right, and you do
Idra: yes
Idra: i do
Silver: did your mom tell you your special?
Idra: no but im actually good
Idra: you just abuse idiocy

... Silver wins the game ...

Idra: you're a joke

Never seen a T start like that, enjoyable.

[Malakili]

Idra really is a lot better than Silver though, and he is known for being ragey, so its not all that surprising.  Also, hes been using the new Mutalisk control technique in the IEM and kicking ass with it.  It was impressive to seem him knock thors down like nothing where before they were getting beaten pretty badly.  Learn how below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg

[Ironwood]

He might be a better player, but he IS a whiny bitch.

[K9]

Idra really is a lot better than Silver though, and he is known for being ragey, so its not all that surprising.  Also, hes been using the new Mutalisk control technique in the IEM and kicking ass with it.  It was impressive to seem him knock thors down like nothing where before they were getting beaten pretty badly.  Learn how below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg

Oh that's cool, thanks for that.

[Trippy]

Silver went on to win that tourney so he's no slouch.

[Malakili]

Silver went on to win that tourney so he's no slouch.

Oh no doubt, but there is a difference between "really good at starcraft to the point where you can win tournaments with elite players" and "The reason I have a place to live and things to eat is because I'm good at Starcraft."  Idra is a pro, and is really REALLY top end, not just extraordinarily good.   Its helps to have 8 hours a day of practice subsidized.

[climbjtree]

Oh, those crazy Koreans!

[Megrim]

Silver went on to win that tourney so he's no slouch.

Oh no doubt, but there is a difference between "really good at starcraft to the point where you can win tournaments with elite players" and "The reason I have a place to live and things to eat is because I'm good at Starcraft."  Idra is a pro, and is really REALLY top end, not just extraordinarily good.   Its helps to have 8 hours a day of practice subsidized.

Please stop, you're embarrassing. You might also want to wipe your chin off.

Idra is just a shit-talking, whiny scrub. He tries too hard, and for all the effort he manages to just come out even. He is an embarrassment to the game, and it speaks volumes about the maturity of the sport that no-one has stepped up and told him to shut the fuck up and behave himself like a civilized human being.

[Fordel]

Isn't Silver a guy from War3? I think that's one thing a lot of old SC vets are having trouble with, that there were people who didn't play SC as a religion, but are still very good RTS players and can in fact take their skill to SC2 as well as any of the old SC people can.

[Trippy]

Yes Silver was a top WC3 player.

[trias_e]

Silver went on to win that tourney so he's no slouch.

Oh no doubt, but there is a difference between "really good at starcraft to the point where you can win tournaments with elite players" and "The reason I have a place to live and things to eat is because I'm good at Starcraft."  Idra is a pro, and is really REALLY top end, not just extraordinarily good.   Its helps to have 8 hours a day of practice subsidized.

Please stop, you're embarrassing. You might also want to wipe your chin off.

Idra is just a shit-talking, whiny scrub. He tries too hard, and for all the effort he manages to just come out even. He is an embarrassment to the game, and it speaks volumes about the maturity of the sport that no-one has stepped up and told him to shut the fuck up and behave himself like a civilized human being.

 

[jakonovski]

This thread is starting to deliver. Gotta watch those replays.

[Ironwood]

In addition to the WC3 players stepping up, a lot of the top chaps are Supreme Commander vets.  I never could get into that game though.

[Fordel]

Couple games I found on HD's channel.

Game 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRY9yflKTeY <-- part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InG1qXJORBs <-- part 2


Game 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCPo3S4mIJk <--- part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5YDsjDvB8w <--- part 2


The Terran player in both of those games, is just not human. I don't even begin to comprehend HOW he manages so much unit control on so many fronts. Was he born with 20 fingers? Four hands? Is he just plugged into SC2 like the matrix?


-edit-

In addition to the WC3 players stepping up, a lot of the top chaps are Supreme Commander vets.  I never could get into that game though.

I think TLO was a Supreme Commander player, but don't quote me on that. I do find the non-SC players tend to be the more inventive ones in SC2 though, like they don't have as many preconceived notions that the SC1 players have.

[jakonovski]

Watching those Idra vs. Silver games, Idra was completely outmatched. The second game in particular was just beautiful. Apparently Idra spent his time in the bad mental place that Day9 mentioned in his show.

[Fordel]

Idra NEVER does anything wrong! EVER! It's always a map, or a race, or a unit, or lag or the solar eclipse reflected into his monitor and burnt out his eyes.


Idra seems to think that once he reaches 200 army and 4+ base, he should just win by default then. Then he cries when his 1a2a3a doesn't auto-win the match for him.


Which is really why is such a little bitch, because he CAN micro like a mother fucker, I've seen him do all kinds of crazy multiple front/prong attacks with amazing unit control. But he'd rather just whine instead. It's fun to watch him rage though!

[Malakili]

Silver went on to win that tourney so he's no slouch.

Oh no doubt, but there is a difference between "really good at starcraft to the point where you can win tournaments with elite players" and "The reason I have a place to live and things to eat is because I'm good at Starcraft."  Idra is a pro, and is really REALLY top end, not just extraordinarily good.   Its helps to have 8 hours a day of practice subsidized.

Please stop, you're embarrassing. You might also want to wipe your chin off.

Idra is just a shit-talking, whiny scrub. He tries too hard, and for all the effort he manages to just come out even. He is an embarrassment to the game, and it speaks volumes about the maturity of the sport that no-one has stepped up and told him to shut the fuck up and behave himself like a civilized human being.

You're right, its totally unprecedented in sports to have stars that whine, talk shit, and are full of themselves.

[Malakili]

The Terran player in both of those games, is just not human. I don't even begin to comprehend HOW he manages so much unit control on so many fronts. Was he born with 20 fingers? Four hands? Is he just plugged into SC2 like the matrix?

Hes a pro Starcraft 1 player.  Like I said earlier in the thread, these guys have the ability to chunk informaton in a major way.  When you type a really long word you probably just bang it out in a second, even though it might be 15 keystrokes.  In the same way, pros that practice all the time and have incredible discipline about training, are able to do a bunch of actions in a row as one "word", in their mind its effectively just a single action.  Of course, I'm sure they have great dexterity and handspeed as well, but I'd wager that there is actually less  difference than you might think.

[jakonovski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpCLqryN-Q&feature=player_embedded

[Fordel]

I'm sticking with my not-human theory!