StarCraft II

[K9]

My impression is that as higher-level play is somewhat less rush-dominant, and people are generally better at scouting, a lot of high-level terrans don't wall off; at least with supply depots. Using Barracks+Factory is a lot stronger against banelings since depots are rather flimsy.

That said, I'm not sure what benefit there is to not walling off beside being able to get tanks and thors in and out of your base easier.

Sometimes your depots can be extremely vulnerable and getting put under supply can really fuck with your build, especially early in the game.

Yeah, I saw a fun TvT with TLO where he constantly nuked the guys supply depots to keep him blocked.

[Malakili]

So, i'm starting to get to that point that I always hit in an RTS where my mechanics are a total barrier to further progression.  Where the fuck can I learn to play right?  Simple stuff like learning hand positioning on the keyboard would be great, because my muscle memory is so tuned from shooters that I'm finding it very difficult to get past an average level in RTS.  No matter how many replays I watch or tutorials I do, there really isn't much that helps you during a game when you ham handedly hit the wrong keys ALL THE TIME.

Perhaps I just expect myself to progress too quickly, it took me years to get good at shooters, and I'm expecting similar results in weeks in this game :-/.  I just hate hitting walls where I feel like I'm making no progress at all, even slow progress would be ok, but I feel like I'm actually getting worse lately.

Actually, I'm going to blame Minecraft, since that has taken up all my SC2 practice time.

[rk47]

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[Megrim]

So, i'm starting to get to that point that I always hit in an RTS where my mechanics are a total barrier to further progression.  Where the fuck can I learn to play right?  Simple stuff like learning hand positioning on the keyboard would be great, because my muscle memory is so tuned from shooters that I'm finding it very difficult to get past an average level in RTS.  No matter how many replays I watch or tutorials I do, there really isn't much that helps you during a game when you ham handedly hit the wrong keys ALL THE TIME.

Perhaps I just expect myself to progress too quickly, it took me years to get good at shooters, and I'm expecting similar results in weeks in this game :-/.  I just hate hitting walls where I feel like I'm making no progress at all, even slow progress would be ok, but I feel like I'm actually getting worse lately.

Actually, I'm going to blame Minecraft, since that has taken up all my SC2 practice time.

If you're literally hitting the wrong hotkeys, then watching replays and tutorials isn't going to help with mechanics. You can only really improve that by playing.

[Malakili]

So, i'm starting to get to that point that I always hit in an RTS where my mechanics are a total barrier to further progression.  Where the fuck can I learn to play right?  Simple stuff like learning hand positioning on the keyboard would be great, because my muscle memory is so tuned from shooters that I'm finding it very difficult to get past an average level in RTS.  No matter how many replays I watch or tutorials I do, there really isn't much that helps you during a game when you ham handedly hit the wrong keys ALL THE TIME.

Perhaps I just expect myself to progress too quickly, it took me years to get good at shooters, and I'm expecting similar results in weeks in this game :-/.  I just hate hitting walls where I feel like I'm making no progress at all, even slow progress would be ok, but I feel like I'm actually getting worse lately.

Actually, I'm going to blame Minecraft, since that has taken up all my SC2 practice time.

If you're literally hitting the wrong hotkeys, then watching replays and tutorials isn't going to help with mechanics. You can only really improve that by playing.

Yeah, replays are definitely not going to help this particular issue.  What I wish, though, is that I had video of someones HANDS.  I feel like i'm holding my hand as if I was playing a shooter and they just groping for keys when I need them, there MUST be a far more efficient way to do it, I just literally have no idea what it is.

[Rasix]

Eh, I like my hands to be resting in a shooterish position. Protoss uses the E key a lot and I like to hit keys with my index finger.  Makes blink micro hard at times.  Sometimes I accidentally scoot over and then I'll find myself spamming the R key when I want to make a pylon. 

It's just muscle memory and that will be a little slow to develop since I haven't been playing RTS competitively since 12 years ago.  Plus I have to break bad habits (I click mostly in WoW  ).

[Malakili]

You know what, I think just fuck it.  I tried, I really did, I even bought the game when I said I wouldn't, but after getting 6 pooled two times in a row in games that I had just decided before hand "I'm just going to focus solely on mechanics" and then not even being able to do that...I just can't do it anymore.  

Meanwhile, Minecraft is fun as all hell, 0 stress level, and I actually ENJOY my time spent playing it instead of feeling like I'm taking years off my life.  The contrast between the two really couldn't be more drastic.  I think SC2 is probably the best RTS on the market, at the moment, but I just do have what it takes.  I'm certainly no totally shitty, I'm platinum, nearish the top of my division, and I could probably improve if I really gutted it out, but thats what I'd have to do..gut it out..and I just can't do it anymore.  I think I may have seen the end of my competitive gaming days.

[trias_e]

You know what, I think just fuck it.  I tried, I really did, I even bought the game when I said I wouldn't, but after getting 6 pooled two times in a row in games that I had just decided before hand "I'm just going to focus solely on mechanics" and then not even being able to do that...I just can't do it anymore.  

Meanwhile, Minecraft is fun as all hell, 0 stress level, and I actually ENJOY my time spent playing it instead of feeling like I'm taking years off my life.  The contrast between the two really couldn't be more drastic.  I think SC2 is probably the best RTS on the market, at the moment, but I just do have what it takes.  I'm certainly no totally shitty, I'm platinum, nearish the top of my division, and I could probably improve if I really gutted it out, but thats what I'd have to do..gut it out..and I just can't do it anymore.  I think I may have seen the end of my competitive gaming days.

I'm really feeling your pain right about now as well.  I've had a good 3 weeks where I have nothing to do, so I decided to attempt to get really good at SC2 and have been playing fairly obsessively.  But hitting that brick wall where you just seem to get worse every game you play is so disheartening.  I'm not sure whether it's best to play through it or just take a good break.  One thing that has seriously helped me is immediately watching the replay of every game I lose and making notes on things to improve.  It allows me to settle down going into the next game.  Getting into a negative emotional state before playing is an easy way to play worse than your capabilities, that I know for sure.

[Margalis]

Teams is a lot less stressful than single-player. I find it a good change of pace and you can still practice stuff while being a bit more laid back.

[Rasix]

Might be a better place to work on mechanics. Thanks. I'll try that.

[apocrypha]

Yeah I'm staying away from the competetive side of SC2 for now. I'm really enjoying the campaign and I'm trying to at least get the Normal difficulty achievs, but not busting a gut over the Hard ones.

I've done a few co-op games which have been fun and they've been enough to show me that I'm just not good enough of a player to be anything other than shitty in a competetive game, which I'm fine with.

Been reading this thread and it's pretty obvious that you all are mostly playing a different game from me, but that's cool - it's nice that it's got fun for highly skilled microers and the old duffers with slow brains 

[slog]

You know what, I think just fuck it.  I tried, I really did, I even bought the game when I said I wouldn't, but after getting 6 pooled two times in a row in games that I had just decided before hand "I'm just going to focus solely on mechanics" and then not even being able to do that...I just can't do it anymore.  

Meanwhile, Minecraft is fun as all hell, 0 stress level, and I actually ENJOY my time spent playing it instead of feeling like I'm taking years off my life.  The contrast between the two really couldn't be more drastic.  I think SC2 is probably the best RTS on the market, at the moment, but I just do have what it takes.  I'm certainly no totally shitty, I'm platinum, nearish the top of my division, and I could probably improve if I really gutted it out, but thats what I'd have to do..gut it out..and I just can't do it anymore.  I think I may have seen the end of my competitive gaming days.

I'm really feeling your pain right about now as well.  I've had a good 3 weeks where I have nothing to do, so I decided to attempt to get really good at SC2 and have been playing fairly obsessively.  But hitting that brick wall where you just seem to get worse every game you play is so disheartening.  I'm not sure whether it's best to play through it or just take a good break.  One thing that has seriously helped me is immediately watching the replay of every game I lose and making notes on things to improve.  It allows me to settle down going into the next game.  Getting into a negative emotional state before playing is an easy way to play worse than your capabilities, that I know for sure.

Day[9] had a good webcast about when that happens and how to analyze your replays and be really critical of yourself.

In the meantime, I've won 9 matches in a row in the Bronze league using the standard 1/1/1 Terran build.

[jakonovski]

Why do I keep winning with the marine-medivac blob (or is it ball, what do the cool kids call such groups of units)? I'm firmly a bronze league player, but even so it can't be that everything folds to it while usually defeating me if I attack on the ground. 

[slog]

Why do I keep winning with the marine-medivac blob (or is it ball, what do the cool kids call such groups of units)? I'm firmly a bronze league player, but even so it can't be that everything folds to it while usually defeating me if I attack on the ground. 

I also found that it's a winner 90% of the time.  I think it's because Bronze level players don't know how to defend their SCV/Drones/whateverProtoss ones very well.  Combine that with bad scouting and within 15 seconds their economy is crushed for the next 10 minutes of the game.

I've had some good players just shred my drops, but they seem to  be few and far between.  I've been going Armor lately just so I can learn the 1/1/1 strategy.

[Malakili]

Why do I keep winning with the marine-medivac blob (or is it ball, what do the cool kids call such groups of units)? I'm firmly a bronze league player, but even so it can't be that everything folds to it while usually defeating me if I attack on the ground. 

I also found that it's a winner 90% of the time.  I think it's because Bronze level players don't know how to defend their SCV/Drones/whateverProtoss ones very well.  Combine that with bad scouting and within 15 seconds their economy is crushed for the next 10 minutes of the game.

I've had some good players just shred my drops, but they seem to  be few and far between.  I've been going Armor lately just so I can learn the 1/1/1 strategy.

I don't think he even means drop harass, but rather just marine medivac -> 1a -> win.

Marines are really good against a lot of things and are really only extremely weak to things like collossi and siege tanks when they are supported by medivacs.  Chargelots will also make short work of them, but that requires a specific upgrade and scouting to know you probably want it.

[jakonovski]

Yeah, I just send two medivacs full of marines and they almost always carry the day. Sometimes I need to help with a second wave of Vikings, but usually not. A couple of times I won because the opponent had sent his army away, but still...

And I must emphasize the fact that I almost always lose if I try a macro based slugfest.

[slog]

Yeah, I just send two medivacs full of marines and they almost always carry the day. Sometimes I need to help with a second wave of Vikings, but usually not. A couple of times I won because the opponent had sent his army away, but still...

And I must emphasize the fact that I almost always lose if I try a macro based slugfest.

Are you sending them around the back and dropping them on his SCVs?  (that's what I was referring to)

[Fordel]

Yeah, I just send two medivacs full of marines and they almost always carry the day. Sometimes I need to help with a second wave of Vikings, but usually not. A couple of times I won because the opponent had sent his army away, but still...

And I must emphasize the fact that I almost always lose if I try a macro based slugfest.

If you are in the Bronze league, then the simple act of attacking after the initial "omg 6pool 1 gate reaper rush" window but before the "yase 200 supply worth of Battlecrusiers achieved!" window means you are doing something that will make most of your opponents very uncomfortable.


Marines are also the most cost effective and versatile unit in the game, that are constantly underestimated. One marine is no big thing, but two dropships worth is 16, that's a lot of firepower. Marines actually out DPS Marauders, even on armored targets. It's almost never a bad idea to have some marines around, no matter what build you are aiming for.


Just in general though, MMM is just a solid strat, its mobile and versatile. As the game goes on longer, you can just add on some Ghosts and/or Ravens to keep the army composition relevant to the very end.

[jakonovski]

That's what I try generally. Here's my last two game replays if you want to watch 'em. But only if you promise not to laugh.
 
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56017-1v1-terran-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56018-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns

[Malakili]

Just in general though, MMM is just a solid strat, its mobile and versatile. As the game goes on longer, you can just add on some Ghosts and/or Ravens to keep the army composition relevant to the very end.

Yeah, Bio is a very viable strat for Terran (though I do prefer mech at the moment).  Remmeber to get your barracks tech lab upgrades if you go bio though, and don't be afraid to add on extra barracks as the game continues, one of the thing lower level players do too often is not build enough unit producing structures, so thats why after the early game that have trouble keeping up a big army, as well as have 3000 minerals in the bank.  You can support a lot more than you think even on one base, and with 2 base you can really ramp up the production.  

I say this because you mentioned you(jakonovski) were having trouble winning if you didn't win early.  Like Fordel says, don't let your army become stagnant either, mix in some ghosts, get a raven or two, and remember for goodness sakes to buy upgrades at the engineer bay.   A strategy needs to mature into the mid and late game or else it'll get over run, which I suspect may be your problem.   MMM can still be the core/majority of your army, but don't JUST build MMM.

[jakonovski]

Yeah, I've been having trouble keeping a coherent plan for longer than 15 mins. Going bronze has weirdly enough made it easier because there's less waiting and thus fewer chances to forget what I was supposed to do.

[Malakili]

Ok, breaking down the game v. protoss (Druckwelle)

Just listing things as I see/watch.

1) build your first supply depot as soon as soon as your 10th scv is queued and you have 100 minerals.  you'll have 50 minerals again to build your eleventh scv on time and won't have to wait to begin your depot until its basically too late and your bound to be supply blocked.  Seems like a small thing, but you'll get off to a much better start if you don't have waste time sitting around.

2) good scout early

3) keep building SCVs all the time, looks like you forgot for a bit after the orbital command finished.

4) you misclicked with a mule, make sure you click on a mineral patch.

5) You have a LOT of gas at this point (6minutes in), and you don't really have anything building that requires gas.  The factory and starport are up, but you aren't producing anything out of them (especially the factory).   If you are going to get it that early build things out of it, and don't feel like you need your second gas right away if you aren't planning on building many gas heavy units.

6) always shift click back to your mineral line after telloing an SCV to build something so it doesn't just sit around afterwards

7) tech lab going down on the factory but you don't have enough minerals to produce out of it right now, I'd say if you are going for this build stay on one geyers  alittle longer to keep those 3 extra scvs mining.  Good on getting the weapon upgrade for your  marines.


8) good drop and win


Some other thoughts:

 keep an eye on your supply, you get supply blocked often.

control group buildings!  Something as simple as: command center 1, all barracks 2, starport 3, then you can just hit 1s2aa3d to build up a full production cycle with that build order.  Your macro stopped as soon as you attacked for the most part (which is common at your league), but if you can have everything hotkeyed you can build units without ever having to actually look away from the fight if you need/want to.

going to do this for the other game too.

[jakonovski]

Awesome, thanks! I didn't even know you could shift click workers so they resume their duties automatically. Grouping buildings I learned yesterday, and I keep forgetting to do it.

It all comes down to being methodical, and it's really hard as I'm soooo used to playing online games by a seat of the pants feeling. But I guess that's why I like this game so much, it's got tons of depth and it's all new to me.

[Fordel]

You can actually Queue up a large number of actions at once. You can have an SCV build several buildings in a row, do a little scout route then return to mine all in one set of clicks.

[slog]

Awesome, thanks! I didn't even know you could shift click workers so they resume their duties automatically. Grouping buildings I learned yesterday, and I keep forgetting to do it.

It all comes down to being methodical, and it's really hard as I'm soooo used to playing online games by a seat of the pants feeling. But I guess that's why I like this game so much, it's got tons of depth and it's all new to me.

It's about being smooth.  The smoother you are with your Macro the better.

[Malakili]

game 2 Terran v Terran.

1) same thing with your early build order, get that supply depot going earlier, you queued up 2 scvs deep (1 building 2 queued) for your 9th 10th and 11th supply, which left you feeling like "damn I don't have enough minerals for this depot yet"  But if you watch you'll notice that if you hadn't queued up that last scv you'd have enough minerals to start a supply depot right as your 9th scv comes out and your 10th is building.  You'll still have enough minerals to buyild your 11th scv "on time" and you won't get supply blocked either.

2) Looks lik eyour scouting was a little odd, but mostly due to not knowing the map I assume no big deal.

3) again the 2nd gas an no real reason to have it yet.  Since you are waiting for the factory as your next building you end up with a lot of resources just sort of sitting around because you don't have much to build from.    Get that second barracks up earlier isn't a bad idea, maybe even before your factory, and stay on one gas.  

4) remember to use mules, lots of energy in that command center.  Will come with repertition

5) Again you are ending up with a ton of gas and not enough minerals.  Stay on one gas longer and remember to mule.

6) Control group your buildings to aid ease of building units.

7) ok, looks like you built a tech lab on the factory and then started building a second star port.  Not sure what your plan was here.  I think you were maybe thinking "I have a lot of gas and those buildings produce gas heavy units", but if your plan is Medivac/Marine, try to stay with that build concept.

8) ok, look like at some point a bad rally point or a misclick got like 5 scvs standing around in the mineral line without mining, that helps explain some of the mineral problems.  Just try to keep that stuff to a minimum, but it happens sometimes.  Also, remember to queue up your scvs to go back to mining after they build, you workers tend to stand around a long time after they are done because its hard to remember/keep track. If you get in the habit of shift clicking back to the minerals after you tell it to build, it saves you the trouble of having to remember.



One more general thing: DO NOT QUEUE UNITS. My guess is you've heard "keep your money low" and that you queue up units and think "there i'm keeping my money low" but its really just shifting it to a queue slot so you can't see it, when in reality its still sitting there in your coffers.  I saw a few times you'd queue up stuff at the star port, and then not be producing anything out of your other buildings.  Produce something out of every building.  If you aren't producing out of a building ask yourself "do I really need to build this next game".  Obviously a factory is necessary for a star port, and sometimes you don't want to build from it. Thats ok, but then you can do something like fly it over your enemy's base to scout (and it'll probably scare the shit out of them in bronze).  Just try to keep it alive and fly it back home after so you don't need to build another later if you want a second starport.


For the next step in your plan, I'd say work on getting an expansion up around the time you attack.  If you are murdering his workers, he is going to be freaking out and won't be attacking you most likely, so this is a nice window to take your expansion, build a bunker at the bottom of your ramp, and you should be pretty safe.

[Malakili]

Awesome, thanks! I didn't even know you could shift click workers so they resume their duties automatically. Grouping buildings I learned yesterday, and I keep forgetting to do it.

It all comes down to being methodical, and it's really hard as I'm soooo used to playing online games by a seat of the pants feeling. But I guess that's why I like this game so much, it's got tons of depth and it's all new to me.

Yep, you can queue up any orders in the game by holding shift and issuing another order.  Very useful with workers and scouts, or telling your units to move in a certain path to get to their destination, etc.

Make a sticky note and put it on your monitor:

1) SCVs (build scvs forever and always, but don't queue them up, you want to go build a new one right after the old one finishes)
2) supply (glance at your supply and no how much supply you are building per production cycle and keep yourself from getting supply blocked)
3) macro (build from your unit producing structures)
4) check mini map (get in the habit of checking the mini map and keeping as much sight around the map as you can, leaving one scv at the xel naga watch tower after he scouts early int he game isn't a bad idea, especially if there is one located in a good position to see when the enemy is moving out.

Just worry about those things at first. And keep going down that list the entire game over and over and over, just get into the rhythm of it.

[slog]

Here is that video from Day[9] that you should watch

http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3991475/

[jakonovski]

2) Looks lik eyour scouting was a little odd, but mostly due to not knowing the map I assume no big deal.

That was the first time I played on that map and when his base wasn't in the opposite corner I was all like what the shit is this fuck.

[slog]

Here is that video from Day[9] that you should watch

http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3991475/

Also, print this out

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1yaK73J9GwM4CzyIF5A-qCtaamoinqWf7rGH-S8N2JJk&pli=1

[Malakili]

Anyone else always get stuck with a billion minerals and no gas as Zerg?  I must be doing something really wrong.  In any event, I realized a few things about this game and myself as a player tonight

1) Random is hurting me a lot more than I thought.  I figured I could play random and be fine, but the higher I get up the more people are very aware of all the timings for their race and the build orders and so forth, and with 9 possible matchups and multiplayer build orders I could do per matchup, my mastery over anyone is just so mediocre that a well executed play beats me most of the time.

 I'm seriously considering picking a race at this point, but I feel like its taking the easy way out and I've gotten it into my head that random is the only "pure" way to play as it gives yourself the least advantage...of course that does me no good playing against 1000s of people who only care about winning no matter what.  I have a bad habit of doing this in most games though, picking the underpowered class in an RPG, or whatever.  Like I need the extra challenge...righhhht. 

2) I have about 1 good hour of SC2 in me per day, and it has to come near the middle of the day when I'm at my most alert. Any more than that, or playing when I'm tired/after a long day and I just don't have the attention or reflexes to match up.   It makes me feel like I'm getting old to say that, but its just the truth.

[Ingmar]

Look at it this way - there are achievements for all 4 ways of doing it - picking 1 of the 3 races, or just queueing as random. So if you're an achievement doer you're going to want to do everything anyway, and once you 'master' each race in turn then playing random will be more approachable.

[Kail]

I'm seriously considering picking a race at this point, but I feel like its taking the easy way out and I've gotten it into my head that random is the only "pure" way to play as it gives yourself the least advantage...

Seems kind of strange thing to say.  Either you play to win or you play to have fun.  If you're playing to have fun, you're generally not going to be competitive at the high levels.  If you're playing to win, there is no "taking the easy way out."  Personally, I'd say you might be doing it backwards: focus on your favorite race until you've really mastered them (or get bored with them), then switch to a new one, and once you're expert at all three, then start running random, if that's your goal.

But if you're feeling like going random is getting in the way of having fun, then stop playing random.  You don't get bonus points for choosing random or anything, just do whatever is most fun for you.  And if you're feeling frustrated at going random, why do it?

[apocrypha]

This last page of posts has been incredibly useful, thanks guys. I may even try an actual competetive game against a human soon  

Also, print this out

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1yaK73J9GwM4CzyIF5A-qCtaamoinqWf7rGH-S8N2JJk&pli=1