The kb+mouse vs controller war gets more fuel...

[Kageru]

I really thought the wii controller had the potential to provide a good FPS experience. Use the wiimote for pointing and the other controller for movement. But with the Wii being underpowered, the second controller optional and their inability to track the wiimote when it goes off center (not sure if that's technical or lazy programming) I don't think that came close to happening.

[Azazel]

I had a similar experience. My wife bought me an Xbox for my birthday when Halo was just becoming a phenomenon. I had a few friends over for drinks, and they bought me controllers and Halo for my birthday. I had been playing FPS for years, and was really excited to try Halo out, since it had heard so much about it, and my buddy played it constantly. I played for maybe 30 minutes, then told them it was completely unplayable due to the horrific controls. Never played it again. Tried again when GTA IV came out...it was fine for the single player game, but for MP it was just absolutely frustrating.

I tried to play some of the GTA3 series on PS2, and found things like the control and target-locking to make the game unplayable for me. Luckily R* set up all three of those core games as quite well done ports to the PC, so I played them there instead. Since then, I've gotten more used to consoles, and console controls have improved, else I'd never have been able to play Saints Row 1

[Samwise]

I really thought the wii controller had the potential to provide a good FPS experience. Use the wiimote for pointing and the other controller for movement.

Even in a perfect world, it wouldn't work that well because you'd either need to use the controller to turn (in which case you'd have a lot of different types of movement to manage with one hand AND compensate with the wiimote as your point of view shifted quickly under it) or you'd need to turn by aiming off center (which would be slow and would probably fuck up your aiming whenever you actually wanted to shoot something at the edge of the screen).

[Strazos]

A lot of it comes down to simple anatomy and physiology.

On a gamepad, you're aiming with just your thumb(s). Your thumbs are meant for gross movement, not precision.

With a mouse, you can use your entire arm to effect either quick, gross movements or small precise movements.

Console FPS sales are higher not because of a better interface, but due to the lower barrier to entry.

[WayAbvPar]

I had a similar experience. My wife bought me an Xbox for my birthday when Halo was just becoming a phenomenon. I had a few friends over for drinks, and they bought me controllers and Halo for my birthday. I had been playing FPS for years, and was really excited to try Halo out, since it had heard so much about it, and my buddy played it constantly. I played for maybe 30 minutes, then told them it was completely unplayable due to the horrific controls. Never played it again. Tried again when GTA IV came out...it was fine for the single player game, but for MP it was just absolutely frustrating.

I tried to play some of the GTA3 series on PS2, and found things like the control and target-locking to make the game unplayable for me. Luckily R* set up all three of those core games as quite well done ports to the PC, so I played them there instead. Since then, I've gotten more used to consoles, and console controls have improved, else I'd never have been able to play Saints Row 1

I have been sorely tempted by some of the recent Steam sales to pick up GTA IV for the PC and replay it. I know I would enjoy it a lot more. Any idea if there is any kind of MP scene still going? It was potentially fun on the 360 but ruined by playing against expert thumb jockeys.

[Azazel]

A lot of it comes down to simple anatomy and physiology.

On a gamepad, you're aiming with just your thumb(s). Your thumbs are meant for gross movement, not precision.

With a mouse, you can use your entire arm to effect either quick, gross movements or small precise movements.

Console FPS sales are higher not because of a better interface, but due to the lower barrier to entry.

I think the sales are higher because the console itself is a lower barrier to entry than a gaming PC.

[Azazel]

tempted by some of the recent Steam sales to pick up GTA IV for the PC and replay it. I know I would enjoy it a lot more. Any idea if there is any kind of MP scene still going? It was potentially fun on the 360 but ruined by playing against expert thumb jockeys.

Sorry, I don't know much about the PC version besides the fact that a lot of people seemingly had trouble with it, and the need to be logged into R* as well/at the same time (social club?)

My PC GTA-ing was III, Vice City and San Andreas. All of which were far, far better than console, but of course, there's no MP.

[jakonovski]

A lot of it comes down to simple anatomy and physiology.

On a gamepad, you're aiming with just your thumb(s). Your thumbs are meant for gross movement, not precision.

With a mouse, you can use your entire arm to effect either quick, gross movements or small precise movements.

Console FPS sales are higher not because of a better interface, but due to the lower barrier to entry.

Here we have the true reason for why people are uncomfortable with a pad. I think I've said this before but I recall there was a study that found that active text messagers (ie. kids who send dozens of messages per day on a T9) had thumb dexterity comparable to other fingers, while those who didn't, didn't. The same applies to gamepads.

[UnSub]

As far as I can tell the pad has the advantage over kb/m that it is much easier to comfortably play while sitting on the sofa, aside from that it's pretty much worse in every way and requires games to be designed to get around the deficiencies.

KB+M has advantages and disadvantages versus console controllers and each are better suited to certain types of games. FPS and RTS are more precise on a PC, but console FPSs have certainly worked (typically using auto-aim and battles designed to be at relatively short range). Console RTSs have to find some way of doing drag-and-select and precision waypointing et al.

However, there are genres where console controllers are better than KB+M: beat'em ups / third person action titles are much easier using a controller since you have more face buttons while KB+M are limited to two core action buttons - left and right mouse button. Sure, you can start adding in other keys (shift, Q, E, space) but that usually means you can't move and act at the same time.

To the rank amateur, both gaming KB+M and controllers offer challenges. It takes time to learn strafing using KB+M, while the number of face buttons on a controller can be a deterrent.

[tgr]

However, there are genres where console controllers are better than KB+M: beat'em ups / third person action titles are much easier using a controller since you have more face buttons while KB+M are limited to two core action buttons - left and right mouse button. Sure, you can start adding in other keys (shift, Q, E, space) but that usually means you can't move and act at the same time.

I doubt anyone here disputes the fact that controllers can be better at beat'em ups etc, but I'm not so sure about third person action titles. I mean, it "works" on a controller due to auto-aim etc, but it would still work better with kb+m (or an equivalent like the fang controller) simply due to the crisper aim.

However, I must disagree a bit with you on the limits of the kb+m. I have 7 different actions I can easily perform on the mouse, right/left click, mouse back, mouse forward, mouse scroll up/down, in addition to of course the aiming. Moving back and forth and strafing usually occupies from one to two fingers at a time, I've no problems using q or e to lean while tapping forwards, backwards, or strafe, while pressing crouch at the same time. Or I can bring out a map at the same time as well, or I can press f.ex alt and move the mouse around to swivel the head of the character around without moving the character itself (ArmA etc). And jumping is normally taken care of by my thumb.

Beat'em ups, I'll agree with you on using a pad. About the only way I can think of topping a pad there would be to use something like microsoft's kinect or whatever it is sony has (I seem to remember it having something which lets you play tennis or a swordfight or the like).

Here we have the true reason for why people are uncomfortable with a pad. I think I've said this before but I recall there was a study that found that active text messagers (ie. kids who send dozens of messages per day on a T9) had thumb dexterity comparable to other fingers, while those who didn't, didn't. The same applies to gamepads.

Did the study say something about when I would stop being a total ape when it comes to using the thumb in that regard? Because I've probably put 100-150 hours into GTA4, ME1 and RDR in total, and I still find it annoyingly sluggish and inaccurate compared to kb+m.

[Malakili]

Because I've probably put 100-150 hours into GTA4, ME1 and RDR in total, and I still find it annoyingly sluggish and inaccurate compared to kb+m.

I agree with you overall, but to be fair, 100-150 hours is NOTHING compared to the time I've spend with a keyboard in mouse, thousands of hours easily, and probably so for most of us, even if those mouse-hours aren't all gaming, we are pretty damn used to using them and being precise with them.

[Strazos]

I think the sales are higher because the console itself is a lower barrier to entry than a gaming PC.

Sorry; Yes, that is what I meant by the barrier to entry.

Here we have the true reason for why people are uncomfortable with a pad. I think I've said this before but I recall there was a study that found that active text messagers (ie. kids who send dozens of messages per day on a T9) had thumb dexterity comparable to other fingers, while those who didn't, didn't. The same applies to gamepads.

You missed the point. You don't use Fingers to aim with a mouse, you use the whole damn arm.

[tgr]

You missed the point. You don't use Fingers to aim with a mouse, you use the whole damn arm.

I actually just use the wrist and fingers. I rest my wrist on the edge of my desk, it's quite comfy.

[Samwise]

When I'm aiming with a mouse I think I'm using my thumb and my pinky to push it around more than anything.  Amazing how much difference one extra finger and about two extra inches of motion can make, though.

[Strazos]

If you feel your arm while you're playing...somehow, you're using all sorts of muscles, ligaments and tendons in your wrist and forearm.

[Samwise]

If you feel your arm while you're playing...somehow, you're using all sorts of muscles, ligaments and tendons in your wrist and forearm.

Any time you move your fingers you're indirectly using a bunch of stuff in your forearm.  As anyone who spends all day using a computer very well knows.  

Stick your arm out, put your other hand on top of your forearm like you don't know how to take a pulse, and then waggle your fingers like you're typing or playing the piano or something.  You're using some of those muscles when you're waggling a controller, too, although those are closer to the bottom of your forearm.

[jakonovski]

You missed the point. You don't use Fingers to aim with a mouse, you use the whole damn arm.

Naw, I was just talking about pads and thumbs. The point was that most people's thumbs lack practice.

[Strazos]

The thumb is still not the idea digit to use for precision work, practice or not.

[jakonovski]

The thumb is still not the idea digit to use for precision work, practice or not.

Indeed.

[Ratman_tf]

I just like to play with my joystick.

[Kageru]

There are PC game pads so any advantages are trivially accessible to PC users. Indeed having a pad is probably becoming ever more useful in this age of half baked PC-ports of console games. The article was more about forbidding the same freedom to console users because in one important context there was a clear interface superiority.

[Malakili]

There are PC game pads so any advantages are trivially accessible to PC users. Indeed having a pad is probably becoming ever more useful in this age of half baked PC-ports of console games. The article was more about forbidding the same freedom to console users because in one important context there was a clear interface superiority.

This is true, I recently bought a 360 controller to have for a few games and it has made those games much more enjoyable, and yet I'm not forced to use it for TF2 just because I bought the thing.

[Sky]

This is me, except I played Goldeneye and used it as a drinking game.

We used to do the same, low man had to switch out the controller. I always used to curse the console guys and tell them I would mop them up on the pc (I was in a Quake LAN group that was ridiculous, I hated them but learned a lot). We ran competitions (beer and weed impaired ftw), there was a big deal with some other drinking group who played regularly, their champ against our champ. Our champ destroyed him easily, left the room in disgust. I picked up the controller (as #2 in our group) and destroyed him. We made them leave after that.

I even had my own N64 controller at the time!

Then I got them all playing Unreal and mopped them up endlessly for months until they got up to speed. Then they all started playing EQ 

You pretty much need a gamepad for the pc, I wouldn't call (some of) the ports half-baked. Something like GTA4 is awesome on the pc with a gamepad, Burnout Paradise, etc. Overlord was a much better experience with the pad, I played the demo with keyb/m and it was shoddy.

The thumb is still not the idea digit to use for precision work, practice or not.

It's almost like they'd make up an expression about being all thumbs or something.

[NowhereMan]

I think my fondest memory of the N64 was actually Hexen II rather than Goldeneye. Playing that co-op with two of my friends and the brother of one friend was always an exercise in hilarious frustration and my first introduction to TKing. I think we hardly ever made it throught the third level simply because trying to do them while killing the mobs and avoiding the three other players was damn near impossible, good times.

On the shoddy port thing, if you need a gamepad to play it properly on the PC I think it's a shoddy port. If it's not set-up to take advantage of the stuff you can do with the PC or even to play well with the normal control system then it's half-assed. This is opposed to actual bad ports that are filled with bugs and require some esoteric collection of hardware and drivers to work without crashing. Stuff like not being able to reassign command keys in a PC game is lazy.

[rk47]

No shit. Seeing the XBOX Controller on the Controller Setup on GTA4 PC Port was the last straw.

What? I'm mapping my keyboard keys to the fucking XBOX pad buttons IN A PC PORT GAME now? WHAT WHAT? WHAT?!!!! 

[Sky]

On the shoddy port thing, if you need a gamepad to play it properly on the PC I think it's a shoddy port. If it's not set-up to take advantage of the stuff you can do with the PC or even to play well with the normal control system then it's half-assed.

The great thing about the pc is that you can use the best controller for whatever game you are playing. For a game like GTA, that's the controller. I like having the variety, and more importantly, the freedom to control it how I want to. Batman:AA and Tomb Raider are another couple games I wouldn't want to play with a keyboard given the choice.

[Cyrrex]

On the shoddy port thing, if you need a gamepad to play it properly on the PC I think it's a shoddy port. If it's not set-up to take advantage of the stuff you can do with the PC or even to play well with the normal control system then it's half-assed.

The great thing about the pc is that you can use the best controller for whatever game you are playing. For a game like GTA, that's the controller. I like having the variety, and more importantly, the freedom to control it how I want to. Batman:AA and Tomb Raider are another couple games I wouldn't want to play with a keyboard given the choice.

That about sums it up.

But I will add this:  Using a kb/m for an FPS does a vastly superior job at ultimately translating what my brain wants to do into action on screen.  No amount of practice with a gamepad can come close to duplicating that level of one-to-one interaction.  The difference in realism is astounding, and to me that translates into more fun.  I played CoD 4 on PS3 until the last mission...I then took it back to the store and picked it up on PC instead.  It's like two completely different games, and one of them absolutely paled in comparison.  All things being equal (which means ignoring the shitty console ports), every shooter is fundamentally superior on a PC. 

It's fine and all to defend consoles for what they are.  I have all three, and I like each of them for different reasons.  But let's not pretend that we aren't dumbing down our gaming.  Death of PC gaming will be bad for all of us, even the console kiddies.

[UnSub]

PC gaming won't die, it'll just change form.

Also, I don't think (at the overall level) games are being dumbed down at all. Depends what you mean by 'dumb down', I guess.

[Azazel]

It's fine and all to defend consoles for what they are.  I have all three, and I like each of them for different reasons.  But let's not pretend that we aren't dumbing down our gaming.  Death of PC gaming will be bad for all of us, even the console kiddies.

It's not really dumbing down, but a shift of styles. It will take me a couple of pay packets - 3 at a guess allowing for bills, food etc- to save up enough for a new PC capable of blowing away the latest games. This new PC will play games better than this one, but the one I'm typing on (now 3 years old, with some upgrades since) will do everything else I use it for just as well as a new one.

Buying a console - 360, or PS3, or Wii, I can do with discretionary money-waste money from any given pay. The console can then obviously run anything that's out for that console with no need to upgrade until it fails in some manner or the PS4/XB720 comes out.

Now this is important, because the fact is that PC games were in their heyday 5-12ish years ago, when we accepted a lot less in terms of graphics and such, and consoles couldn't handle that shit anyway. These days, the bar for graphics and overall production quality in a AAA (budget, marketing, etc - doesnt mean it will be good) title is way, way higher than it's ever been before (compare GTA3 to GTA4). These days, with that production quality, games cost a lot more to make, and so they go where the market is. These days, my wife's respectable PC can't handle borderlands, so we had to play it on the 360, because I didn't want to spend the AU$2k to buy a new box at the time for the one game. Her $250 360 ran it just fine.

So PC gaming will continue, but it's not the first stop for AAA anymore, and it's understandable. Nowadays, the PC is still the primary home for a couple of genres (RTS, MMO, Diablo-perspective) and a cou0ple of key devs (Valve, Blizzard) but it's also the place where the new smaller indie games are coming through. Both in terms of the PopCap style as well as lots of stuff that we see on Steam. And hell, many of those indy games are comparable to what used to be AAA PC games in the old days. They're just not the same as today's AAA stuff.

[UnSub]

Another point I saw recently that I thought was interesting was how desktop PC sales have been down for a long time in preference to laptops, since laptops are much cheaper and do 90% of the things that desktops do... just not games that require multi MBs of graphics' capability.

Which is another reason why casual gaming - that doesn't require high-end graphics - are really taking off on PCs.

I'm not saying that one or the other is better, but there are reasons why consoles have taken over from PCs for gaming, regardless of their advantages in some gaming areas.

[Azazel]

I'd probably say that the market is broader than ever as well. When I was a teenager, I was able to save and scrimp to buy an A500 (actually, sold a large well-painted Warhammer 40k army for enough to buy it), but there was no way I was buying a killer gaming PC when I was 16 or 17 or 18. PC gaming enthusiasts were a little older with more money. A console's price is comparatively much cheaper, even for kids and teenagers these days, and they're also likely to have a mid-level PC as opposed to a rig that will run Crysis at full spec.

...

additional:
So after typing that, I flicked over to Steam to start up a download to try and use up the last of my monthly bandwidth that resets in 2 hours, and I choose Mass Effect. In the little team sidebar with news and such, there's a story that's quite pertinent to this. Yeah, it's Kotaku. Deal.

One million used to be the bar. Then two. Then three. Mass Effect developer BioWare isn't stopping there.

"Well, we need to sell 10 million units," said BioWare co-founder Dr. Greg Zeschuk. "That's actually the new target, right? We do Top 10 games, our stuff is quite successful. I know Mass [Effect 2] is number eight so far this year, in North America."

Ten million. Ten million! That's a lot. For comparison's sake, Grand Theft Auto IV has sold over 17 million.

"I think we know how lucky we are," he explained. "When we're saying that, we always know that we're super-fortunate that we have a nice combination of things going on - really great support from EA, a budget to make great big giant games. We recognise that in a sense it's a privileged position we're in."

BioWare is readying both Dragon Age 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic for 2011. Both big games, both capable of selling ten mil, no?

http://kotaku.com/5600452/mass-effect-designer-needs-to-sell-10-million-units

So yeah, the newest consoles have expanded the market hugely. Gamers demand more than ever in terms of graphics and shiny. In turn costs and budgets go way up. In turn, the numbers needed to sell go way up. Syndicate (Bullfrog) was awesome back in the day. How many units did it sell? How many did it need to sell to turn a solid profit?

[SnakeCharmer]

every shooter is fundamentally superior on a PC.

No.

They're fundamentally better with a m/kb.  If the 360 or PS3 could be allowed to utilize a m/kb for gaming, PC gaming would probably die off rather quickly.  But Microsoft, at least, won't allow that because the lack of PC sales would kill their OS revenue.

[Valmorian]

But Microsoft, at least, won't allow that because the lack of PC sales would kill their OS revenue.

Haha, do you really think most PC sales are because of FPSes??? Or even games for that matter?

[SnakeCharmer]

But Microsoft, at least, won't allow that because the lack of PC sales would kill their OS revenue.

Haha, do you really think most PC sales are because of FPSes??? Or even games for that matter?

A large part of them, yeah.  Not because of FPS games specifically, but because of games in general, especially among the under 25 crowd.  Hell, even as a member of the 35+ crowd, if I could get all my games on a console including MMOs with a m/kb, I'd dump PC gaming entirely.  Why spend $1K plus on a decent PC (that I'll have to build myself) when I can spend $300 on a console and hook it up to my TV?  My current video card cost more than my PS3 did.

More directly, it would cut into the Games For Windows licensing that developers have with MS, which is really where they'd lose revenue. 

[Samwise]

Sony doesn't have any stake in high-end PCs that I'm aware of.  Why don't they start shipping a kb+m with the PS3 and destroy Microsoft in one fell swoop if it's that easy?  Why doesn't Nintendo?  Is it because Steve Ballmer has really good blackmail material on them?