So, is WOW worth going back to?

[Rendakor]

Right, that's why I included it in there as part of a leveling build. The extra attack is nice, particularly when you have seal of command to make it a cleave. 

[Shrike]

Right, that's why I included it in there as part of a leveling build. The extra attack is nice, particularly when you have seal of command to make it a cleave. 

Seal of command is a hoot. I never used it in PvP, but boy I sure thought about it. For grinding and tanking trash, though, it's a lot of fun.

[Zetor]

When tanking trash, it also makes you outdps most of the pug dps. Then everyone dies on the boss at 30% and you solo him from there (this actually happened in h-hor once at the second boss). Buff prot pallies!

[Shrike]

More to the point, it keeps aggro from overzealous and/or clueless dps.

Yeah, I've finished more than a few bosses with only the healer up and at least four I can think of offhand solo. I always imagine the rogue/hunter running to the O-fficial boards with a bunch of "nerf pallies" threads bubbling in his pea-brain.

[Riggswolfe]

Also, he will eventually be duoing with my wife's hunter. Would a protection build be good for duoing with a hunter?

Also, speaking of PvP. I remember that in the old days you had no chance unless you were in raid gear. Is it still the same? Is there a viable alternate path?

[Sheepherder]

1. Stoicism isn't that good for anything except pvp.
2. Selling stuff on the AH as you level is a great idea.
3. Paladins scale well with large numbers of enemies.  All three specs level fastest by taking on groups of mobs so long as you don't kill yourself.
4. Prot has more downtime, without stacking Int you would have to block/parry/dodge roughly 12.5 times in 8 seconds for Blessing of Sanctuary to equal Judgments of the Wise, which means you need to AoE farm to be mana efficient.  Spiritual Attunement is a non-factor if you self-heal.
5. Reckoning doubles your white damage.  Prot white damage is shitty.  You're better off getting more avoidance/mitigation/self-heal/damage that scales with adds and pulling another mob.

Anyways, I have to go for like... a week.

[Sheepherder]

Right, that's why I included it in there as part of a leveling build. The extra attack is nice, particularly when you have seal of command to make it a cleave.  

Reckoning procs don't (edit: or are not supposed to) proc SoComm.  Check Wowhead.

EDIT2: Wowwiki also says that reckoning doesn't proc SoComm.

[Morat20]

I just started playing again, and have a server full of alts.

I have a main at 75 I can't be arsed to play because I'm at some weird spot where I have a ton of group quests (WHY?) no dungeon quests, and can't fly in Northrend for two more fucking levels, even though I have the cash.

I have a mage at 45 that I fucked with yesterday, managed to get from 43 to 45 just doing the random dungeon (one of which I happened to have the full quest load for) and decided to check out the new quest hub in that swampy place. I also futzed with her spells, talents, and tailoring/enchanting stuff.

I've got a death knight I'm painfully skilling up herbalism for, since my main is an engineer, which means "Broke".

The rest is a collection of classes between 10 and 20 that I haven't touched in ages, and whose talent trees have all probably changed like six times since I last touched them.

Still, I had a surprising amount of fun relearning to play my mage (hadn't touched it in six months, hadn't really played it at all in about a year) and the random dungeon thing worked surprisingly well. I do want to play my druid again, though.

[Ingmar]

None of those Dragonblight group quests are really important story- or gear-wise, just move on to Grizzly Hills or Zul'Drak and abandon them.

[Morat20]

None of those Dragonblight group quests are really important story- or gear-wise, just move on to Grizzly Hills or Zul'Drak and abandon them.

Yeah, that was the decision I'd come to. I'm just enjoying the mage. I specced frost, and it's just too fun. WAY too fun. (Admittedly, I'd specced frost because I had, ages ago, intended to PvP with the mage and my experience was that in the bigger battlegrounds, frost mages where a PITA with all the slows and roots, in terms of annoying and impeding a group).

The thing that pissed me off the most, though, was I accidentally deleted my gatherer and auctioneer databases when reinstalling WoW.

[Ingmar]

The bad news about frost is it is a-w-f-u-l for group pve.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

I was sad that they made frost a garbage PvE spec... I have fond memories of my frost mage in BC.

[Merusk]

The thing that pissed me off the most, though, was I accidentally deleted my gatherer and auctioneer databases when reinstalling WoW.

Download the gatherer.db Wowhead file from Wow-interface fix gatherer. 
http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info11707-GathererDBWoWHead.html

The auctioneer .db is worthless to you anyway since it's months out of date and you'd have been listing things way off their actual value.  Just run the Auction scan a few times a day for the next few days and this weekend and you'll be good.

[Sjofn]

The bad news about frost is it is a-w-f-u-l for group pve.

I thought it was merely bad these days.

[proudft]

elitistjerks has it as about 15% back from arcane.   Comparing individual mage to individual mage you could come out ahead, but any given person will almost certainly do more damage in a raid as arcane than they would as frost.  But frost is more fun, so nyeah!

[Morat20]

The bad news about frost is it is a-w-f-u-l for group pve.

It's good enough for pickup groups. I have a bit in arcane, but everything else in frost.

Besides, I'm only level 45, play on a role-playing server, and stick to 5-mans with my mage. I played a BM spec hunter through every major hunter change (FUCK GOOD SPECS!) -- so I played overpowered and laughable beastmasters alike -- and I like frost. I like freezing things.

Speaking of, I need to install recount. I was consistently number 2 on DPS in groups, behind the warlock, and I wasn't trying terribly hard.

Merusk:
Thanks. Finding something like that was my goal for tonight.

[Ingmar]

Oh yeah it doesn't really matter while leveling. If you think you might go anywhere near a raid at 80 though, you'll want an arcane or fire dual spec option.

Supposedly frost will actually work for raiding again in Cataclysm, we shall see.

[Riggswolfe]

All this talk of mages reminds me I have a low 20s mage I could swap out for my druid to play as with my wife. On the downside we'd lose healing but on the upside we'd plow through mobs and I'm guessing XP.

[Chimpy]

Oh yeah it doesn't really matter while leveling. If you think you might go anywhere near a raid at 80 though, you'll want an arcane or fire dual spec option.

Supposedly frost will actually work for raiding again in Cataclysm, we shall see.

If they put re-worked MC and BWL in, it will be the only thing again!

[Riggswolfe]

Ok. So last night I discovered I love dungeon finder as it takes most of the frustration out of trying to find a dungeon.

So, if, on my Pally, I want to do some dungeoneering as I level, which talent spec works best? Also, at end game, same question. I figure as a Pally I should probably queue up as DPS since my heals and tanking don't compare to the classes that specialize in that. Am I right with that?

[proudft]

Ok. So last night I discovered I love dungeon finder as it takes most of the frustration out of trying to find a dungeon.

So, if, on my Pally, I want to do some dungeoneering as I level, which talent spec works best? Also, at end game, same question. I figure as a Pally I should probably queue up as DPS since my heals and tanking don't compare to the classes that specialize in that. Am I right with that?

Any pre-60 instance you can handle any role as any spec if you have a basic idea of which buttons do what and have semi-appropriate gear readied (like, use a shield and some stamina gear if you're tanking).  Nothing hits hard enough that losing aggro is a group wipe, and until the 50s you wouldn't have the end talents anyway.

At 80, any of the three paladin specs work fine in their niche.  Ret does decent dps, prot is a very forgiving way to learn to tank (tons of aoe threat and multiple taunts) and very durable (argent defender ho!), and holy is the preferred tank healer for raids and perfectly fine at 5-mans.   

You are not a hybrid so much as you get to pick 2 out of 3 things to be good at (your two dual-spec choices).

[Riggswolfe]

At 80, any of the three paladin specs work fine in their niche.  Ret does decent dps, prot is a very forgiving way to learn to tank (tons of aoe threat and multiple taunts) and very durable (argent defender ho!), and holy is the preferred tank healer for raids and perfectly fine at 5-mans.   

You are not a hybrid so much as you get to pick 2 out of 3 things to be good at (your two dual-spec choices).

Ok. So. I specced Ret because I figured it'd be the most fun for leveling. I'm currently 61. Is it acceptable as a Pally to sign up for a dungeon as "DPS" considering I could knock some other higher DPS characters out of the running but will bring some off-healing and buffs and such to the table? Is there...ettiquette about this stuff?

I am still considering respeccing as protection but wonder if I'll be able to hold aggro and right now I don't have a one-hand weapon (though I did just get a shield from a quest). I'm walking around with a two handed blue axe I got from a raid back in the day.

How does loot drop from the dungeons these days? I've heard something about marks. So, let's say I go into a random BC dungeon and we kill a boss. Does he drop marks we all get and we collect them and take them to some vendor? Or is it like the "classic" dungeons and he might drop a couple of blues and if I want it I need to hope my rolls are good?

[Arrrgh]

If you have no idea how to tank go as ret a few times and watch the tank...assuming you get a tank worth watching....before you try tanking one. A bad ret pulls down the DPS of the group a bit,  a bad tank wipes the group.

[Sjofn]

Ok. So. I specced Ret because I figured it'd be the most fun for leveling. I'm currently 61. Is it acceptable as a Pally to sign up for a dungeon as "DPS" considering I could knock some other higher DPS characters out of the running but will bring some off-healing and buffs and such to the table? Is there...ettiquette about this stuff?

For the billionth time, ret is perfectly good dps. No one thinks ret paladins are bad. Stop thinking they are! Also, leveling up dungeons, no one gives a shit what you are or what your numbers come out as (USUALLY) so long as you aren't a moron, meaning running ahead of the tank, being afk half the time, etc. At 80 people can be bigger dickbags about that sort of stuff, although still no one is going to sneer at a ret paladin existing the way you seem to think they might. The only dungeon finder related reason you might not want to only be ret forever is your dungeon queues take longer than a holy or protection paladin, but that's a personal preference thing, not a "They're all gonna laugh at you!" thing. 

[proudft]

How does loot drop from the dungeons these days? I've heard something about marks. So, let's say I go into a random BC dungeon and we kill a boss. Does he drop marks we all get and we collect them and take them to some vendor? Or is it like the "classic" dungeons and he might drop a couple of blues and if I want it I need to hope my rolls are good?

Pre-80 it is "classic" style, with the addition of if you picked 'random' off the dungeon finder you get a bag o' blue item from pre-TBC, bag o'useless blue item from TBC, and bag o' two triumph badges in WOTLK stuff.   The need/greed rolls are somewhat fixed in that you can't roll on the 'wrong' armor type which is good in preventing greedy ninjas but bad if you want a cloth item for your caster paladin or shaman.

At 80, heroic dungeons and the regular/heroic ICC 5-mans drop triumph badges in addition to the loot.  Triumph are the basic badge, with frost badges being the rarer but better ones that come from (a) your first random heroic of the day, (b) ICC raid, (c) weekly raid quest, and (d) probably someplace else I forgot.  Triumph is what you use to gear up for ICC, basically, and some random dungeoneering in the 70-79 times can get you a little bit of a head start on that (2 badges/day possible).  

[Riggswolfe]

If you have no idea how to tank go as ret a few times and watch the tank...assuming you get a tank worth watching....before you try tanking one. A bad ret pulls down the DPS of the group a bit,  a bad tank wipes the group.

I've tanked a few times in the past but I'll be honest, it's not my strength. I'm a decent healer and I'm good at DPS but tanking isn't my strong point. I can do it and am a good offtank where I'm told to "keep that guard busy for a bit while we burn this guy down" but when it comes to keeping multiple mobs on me? I tend to let a straggler go because I get focused too much. Now, if it is AOE tanking in some way that'd probably cover my weakness.

[Riggswolfe]

For the billionth time, ret is perfectly good dps. No one thinks ret paladins are bad. Stop thinking they are! Also, leveling up dungeons, no one gives a shit what you are or what your numbers come out as (USUALLY) so long as you aren't a moron, meaning running ahead of the tank, being afk half the time, etc. At 80 people can be bigger dickbags about that sort of stuff, although still no one is going to sneer at a ret paladin existing the way you seem to think they might. The only dungeon finder related reason you might not want to only be ret forever is your dungeon queues take longer than a holy or protection paladin, but that's a personal preference thing, not a "They're all gonna laugh at you!" thing. 

Yeah sorry. I just remember back in the day if you specced Ret people basically rolled their eyes at you and considered you a loser.

[Riggswolfe]

So, what I'm thinking is:

Dual Talents:

One, Ret for my "fun" times
The other Protection probably. Maybe I can learn to tank by trying to keep aggro off of my wife's hunter when she gets near my level.

Oh, and as an update, her Hunter and my Druid are 26 now. We're going so fast through levels it's hard to keep decently geared at this point. Last night we hit the random dungeon finder and did the Stockade. After she went to bed I did the deadmines and shadowfang keep.

I noticed noone bothers to have the quests and dungeon crawling is so much different from what I remember. It seemed to work like this.

Warrior charges in, gathers up 5+ enemies. I heal him, everyone else burns them down. Then move to the next room and repeat. The only times we had trouble was when I was too slow telling them I was low on mana. We went through the dungeons at like light speed and the warrior hardly ever got hurt and he wasn't even wearing heirlooms. Though he did have some kind of heroism buff. Is that a new warrior "aura"?

[Morat20]

Hey, question -- noted the roll is now need/greed/DE? What's with the DE? How's that work?

[Typhon]

It's an alternate to a greed roll that gives you the disenchant materials if there is an enchanter in the group that could disenchant the item that dropped.

[Sjofn]

Yeah sorry. I just remember back in the day if you specced Ret people basically rolled their eyes at you and considered you a loser.

Yeah, I remember. Happily, those days are gone, as many of us have told you. You can trust us! In this, at least. 

That heroism buff you asked about, I believe that is the "hooray, you are doing a PUG!" buff you get through the dungeon finder. I never actually looked at the name for it, but it's basically a bit of a safety net for PUG-ing.

[Mrbloodworth]

It's an alternate to a greed roll that gives you the disenchant materials if there is an enchanter in the group that could disenchant the item that dropped.

Yeah, this feature is awesome. 

[proudft]

I've tanked a few times in the past but I'll be honest, it's not my strength.

It really just takes practice, and a thick skin to deal with/tolerate knowitall dpser backseat tank assholes.  

Fortunately, paladin is like the second-best to learn on (druid is the best, they have like 4 buttons, so you can 'learn to tank', i.e., positioning monsters, watching for patrols, anticipating morons, without your own abilities adding to the learning curve).  The paladin has more abilities, but a lot of it is sort of an automatic routine: avenger shield, holy shield, consecrate, judge this, hammer that, and you can pick it up fairly quickly.  When you feel saucy, look up the 96969 rotation.

Warrior and DK are more involved.  I learned tanking on a paladin, but I don't play him much anymore because it is a bit too passive for me now that I finally got the hang of warrior (which took me an incredibly long time).  Plus I love charge so much.  

[WoopeeTuralyon]

That buff could also be the Heroic Presence that draenei can provide, improving chance to hit by 1%.

[Morat20]

It's an alternate to a greed roll that gives you the disenchant materials if there is an enchanter in the group that could disenchant the item that dropped.

So the party HAS to have an enchanter?

Second question: Is it rolled as a 'greed' roll? Or is it "needs" then "greeds" and then if no one does those, it's down to DEs?