Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online

[Hayduke]

In the end, they either should've released this game 5+ years ago or should've made the design some sort of lightweight PS or WW2O shooter or squad-based game like G&H... which was essentially DoW: Online, only using mythological fantasy.

I wish they'd do something like a DotA clone, maybe with third person view and heroes from all armies.  A mmo really just seems dumb, they'll cut out all the fun to make the game balanced just to throw in extraneous MMO nonsense.

[ezrast]

How do you imagine playing as a Novice will be different to playing as a space marine?

It won't be different at all, this is just how they are planning to express levels.

And if you don't want levels shitting up your MMOG then man up and play EVE.

Well, for instance, scouts and space marines have different armor and weapon loadouts available to them according to lore.  I think people are going to want their iconic space marine armor from the get go, and not have to go through 1/2 the game wearing "mail" before they can upgrade to "plate"

I think those people occupy a fairly narrow band on the spectrum between "I wun 2 play spehs mareen" and "placing terminators in the same bracket as nobs is clearly stupid, as page 83 of the SM codex indicates blah blah blah" (i.e. people who won't know/care vs people who will bitch regardless). Hell, I played a fair amount of Dawn of War and I don't even know what "iconic space marine armor" a scout wouldn't have (those helmets with the funny mouthpiece things?). Most people, just give 'em a bolter and a chainsword and they'll be happy.

Awful lot of bitching in here about a game that has released no details except "it's an MMO."

[Malakili]

This, most people would probably not even recognize immediately as 40k.

This, people say SPACE MARINE:


If people are expecting the second one, and get the first one, (or only get the second one after playing 40 levels or whatever) you can imagine it not going extremely well.

[ezrast]

1)

If people are expecting the second one, and get the first one, (or only get the second one after playing 40 levels or whatever) you can imagine them being all, "oh sweet, I get a cape!"

2) Or, they could get
3) None of this is relevant anyway because it has no bearing on whether the game is fun, which is what people will judge it by - not whether their giant boots and shoulderpads are giant enough.

[Teleku]

Awful lot of bitching in here about a game that has released no details except "it's an MMO."

Well that and that it's also "just like WoW."  I think its that detail they let slip that has people in a tizzy.

[Arthur_Parker]

Awful lot of bitching in here about a game that has released no details except "it's an MMO."

Maybe that's enough info to bitch about 

Inquisition: Dark Millenium Online Interview

RPS: So, you haven’t released a great deal of information on the game yet. Is this going to be a traditional MMORPG?

Tim Campbell: We look at it like, there’s two layers to an MMO. There’s the upper layer, which is progression, merchants, getting abilities and all that kind of stuff, and we have some twists and turns in there but for the most part it’ll be quite similar to the other MMOs out there.

Where we want to innovate is in the basic, moment-to-moment gameplay. The first thing we realised is that if you try to do traditional MMO combat with guns, it doesn’t work. You have like, a tank with a gun? It doesn’t make sense. And because the IP is really visceral and powerful, we wanted to amp the action up. So, it’s much more action-based. But we don’t want to talk about that just yet.

What I will say is that walking through these halls, you can spot an MMO from forty feet away. There’s something about ‘em. They’ve got a million buttons, and you target enemies and attack them, and the whole thing is so easily identifiable. But because of our presentation and interface, if you walked by our game on the show floor, you wouldn’t think it was an MMO. At that level, it doesn’t play like an MMO.

RPS: There’s a lot of vehicular combat in the trailers you’ve released. Can you talk about that?

TC: That’s definitely one of the pillars of our game, in addition to action combat. Vehicles in MMOs are usually pretty poorly implemented. You can’t get out, there’s no real physics. But the vehicles in our game, you can jump in and out, they react to the environment. I mean it’s not like, super-hardcore physics, you can’t really crash the vehicles. I’d call it “part-physics”, if that makes sense. You can still ram other vehicles and stuff, but you can’t tip over.
...
RPS: I suppose what I’m talking about is that most MMOs tend to market themselves at a younger audience than you’d expect from 40K.

TC: I think if you look at our last game, Darksiders, you’ll see that we didn’t “gimp” the setting there. It wasn’t ridiculously dark, but we didn’t shy away from those elements and that’s our style as a studio.

RPS: So, ranged combat’s what you’re using to differentiate Dark Millenium Online?

TC: Well, ranged combat, the universe, and a couple of other things we’ll be talking about at a later date before the end of the year. There’s a lot of things that fall out of ranged combat that make the game not play like a traditional MMO.

RPS: So you’re shooting for something more instanced? More scripted?

TC: There’s still an open world. One of the things I can talk about is that we’ve carved out a little system in the universe where we set our game, and some of the planets are contested, some aren’t. Some are just outright battlefields. So there’s a lot of open, explorable space, but there’s also a lot that’s personalised and scripted.

RPS: Okay. And will the shooting be skill based? Do you aim with the mouse?

TC: Ah… I will say it’s more action oriented. One thing we wanted to make clear is that it’s not hardcore shooting. The weird analogy that I always give is that on one end of the melee combat spectrum you have WoW, and on the other end you have Devil May Cry. But there’s stuff in the middle, like Diablo. It’s not WoW, but it’s not Devil May Cry. Translate that to ranged combat and you can maybe start to see what we’re doing here.

Pretty decent interview, nice change from mentioning WoW all the time.

[Kail]

You have like, a tank with a gun? It doesn’t make sense.

*Bangs head on desk* WHY DO YOU SAY THINGS THAT WILL MAKE ME CRY.

RPS: Okay. And will the shooting be skill based? Do you aim with the mouse?

TC: Ah… I will say it’s more action oriented. One thing we wanted to make clear is that it’s not hardcore shooting. The weird analogy that I always give is that on one end of the melee combat spectrum you have WoW, and on the other end you have Devil May Cry. But there’s stuff in the middle, like Diablo. It’s not WoW, but it’s not Devil May Cry. Translate that to ranged combat and you can maybe start to see what we’re doing here.

That sounds like weasel-speak for "no."

I am somewhat heartened by the "we're not like other MMOs" bits (the bit about WAR where he talks about how the actual stuff you do in the game isn't that interesting a lot of the time) but "more action oriented" could mean a lot of things, not all of them interesting.

[Malakili]

TC: Ah… I will say it’s more action oriented.

I can't think of an MMO in the last 3-4 years that DIDN'T say they were going to really move the genre forward by making it more action oriented.  Its effectively meaningless if you ask me.

[slog]

TC: Ah… I will say it’s more action oriented.

I can't think of an MMO in the last 3-4 years that DIDN'T say they were going to really move the genre forward by making it more action oriented.  Its effectively meaningless if you ask me.

You have it all wrong.  The player takes the action of clicking his mouse and the game responds by rolling some dice and taking the appropriate action.

It's action packed!

[ezrast]

I am somewhat heartened by the "we're not like other MMOs" bits

I find it hard to be when all the other PR has been "we're just like other MMOs". Apparently an MMO vet will find the interface familiar and not familiar, simultaneously.

I do like that he manages to give almost an entire interview without mentioning WoW but then implicitly compares the game to Diablo at the end.

[Riggswolfe]

The most interesting thing to me is that he appears to be saying that there won't be an aggro mechanic. He specifically mentions that tanks don't make sense with ranged combat.

My guess is that in a few months they'll give up and stick one in anyway but call it something else and just make it so the mob doesn't charge up to you but he pretty much exclusively shoots at your character while the other characters kill him.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I am somewhat heartened by the "we're not like other MMOs" bits

I find it hard to be when all the other PR has been "we're just like other MMOs". Apparently an MMO vet will find the interface familiar and not familiar, simultaneously.

I do like that he manages to give almost an entire interview without mentioning WoW but then implicitly compares the game to Diablo at the end.

What he means by diablo is that unlike wow where you target and let auto attack shoot for you, or devil may cry where you actually need to aim and mash buttons it will be like diablo....in that you get to target the mob and get carpal tunnel by clicking your "shoot big gun" button until it dies.

[eldaec]

I am somewhat heartened by the "we're not like other MMOs" bits

I find it hard to be when all the other PR has been "we're just like other MMOs". Apparently an MMO vet will find the interface familiar and not familiar, simultaneously.

I do like that he manages to give almost an entire interview without mentioning WoW but then implicitly compares the game to Diablo at the end.

What he means by diablo is that unlike wow where you target and let auto attack shoot for you, or devil may cry where you actually need to aim and mash buttons it will be like diablo....in that you get to target the mob and get carpal tunnel by clicking your "shoot big gun" button until it dies.

Unless you are in a tank, in which case you click to drive closer so you can hit it it with your sword.

This is the most ridiculous project I've come across since swg.

[Stabs]

Erm when he said tanks with guns are ridiculous I think he meant diku trinity tanks who taunt a lot and prevent the party from being hit. Not armoured fighting vehicles.

[Typhon]

I am somewhat heartened by the "we're not like other MMOs" bits

I find it hard to be when all the other PR has been "we're just like other MMOs". Apparently an MMO vet will find the interface familiar and not familiar, simultaneously.

I do like that he manages to give almost an entire interview without mentioning WoW but then implicitly compares the game to Diablo at the end.

What he means by diablo is that unlike wow where you target and let auto attack shoot for you, or devil may cry where you actually need to aim and mash buttons it will be like diablo....in that you get to target the mob and get carpal tunnel by clicking your "shoot big gun" button until it dies.

Unless you are in a tank, in which case you click to drive closer so you can hit it it with your sword.

This is the most ridiculous project I've come across since swg.

You realize that when he said, "tank", he meant, "meatshield" not "armored assault vehicle", right?

[Rishathra]

I'm pretty sure eldaec meant this.

[Kail]

You realize that when he said, "tank", he meant, "meatshield" not "armored assault vehicle", right?

What is this "armored assault vehicle" of which you speak?  Surely such a conveyance must not exist in WH40k, or if it does, surely it would require a Space Marine in REALLY BIG shoulderpads to block attacks for it, for otherwise we would have some kind of ludicrous object with both a gun and a lot of armor!  Why, the very concept... purest nonsense!  Our minds could not even begin to understand the concept!  It's a good thing this game is completely thinking outside the box and not at all like Warcraft, otherwise I might worry that someone who can't wrap his mind around the idea of a "tank" not automatically corresponding to a guy with a huge broadsword might produce a game that fails to innovate at all!

[Typhon]

You realize that when he said, "tank", he meant, "meatshield" not "armored assault vehicle", right?

What is this "armored assault vehicle" of which you speak?  Surely such a conveyance must not exist in WH40k, or if it does, surely it would require a Space Marine in REALLY BIG shoulderpads to block attacks for it, for otherwise we would have some kind of ludicrous object with both a gun and a lot of armor!  Why, the very concept... purest nonsense!  Our minds could not even begin to understand the concept!  It's a good thing this game is completely thinking outside the box and not at all like Warcraft, otherwise I might worry that someone who can't wrap his mind around the idea of a "tank" not automatically corresponding to a guy with a huge broadsword might produce a game that fails to innovate at all!

My take is that he simply meant that there wouldn't be a character with an ability called "taunt" and that NPCs would be choosing targets of opportunity based upon proximity and (possibly) perceived threat.  That is how I'm reading his statement, "The first thing we realised is that if you try to do traditional MMO combat with guns, it doesn’t work." Traditional MMO combat is a tank, a healer, and dps.  They don't think a tank makes sense in their game.  As I'm already too fucking tired of the holy trinity I'm happy to hear a developer say that they are looking to try something different.

In the article he comes right out and says that there are vehicles, and players do get in and out of them.  My take is that these vehicles would be both heavily armed and armored.

As far as it being new, well to tell the truth I can't think offhand of another MMO that doesn't have a character class who's function is to draw enemy fire (but I didn't play Planetside).  Sounds new enough to me.

I really don't understand why his statement caused shorts to bunch up.

[Kail]

I really don't understand why his statement caused shorts to bunch up.

It's not really genuine rage from me, personally, I just find it hilarious that the guy developing a WH40k MMO actually said that the idea of tanks with guns was ridiculous.  I mean, how can you not find that at least a little bit funny?

I think we're coming from the same place, neither of us wants to see WoW retread number six-million-and-one.  I don't really want a Leman Russ with "Taunt" on it's hotbar.  I just don't see it coming from a dev whose brain is so enmeshed in the WoW mindset that he can't even concieve of something like ranged tank, like the idea is just unmanageable and alien because it wouldn't work in Icecrown Citadel.

[Arthur_Parker]

As far as it being new, well to tell the truth I can't think offhand of another MMO that doesn't have a character class who's function is to draw enemy fire (but I didn't play Planetside).  Sounds new enough to me.

The Original big three, UO, AC & EQ

[Typhon]

I really don't understand why his statement caused shorts to bunch up.

It's not really genuine rage from me, personally, I just find it hilarious that the guy developing a WH40k MMO actually said that the idea of tanks with guns was ridiculous.  I mean, how can you not find that at least a little bit funny?

I think we're coming from the same place, neither of us wants to see WoW retread number six-million-and-one.  I don't really want a Leman Russ with "Taunt" on it's hotbar.  I just don't see it coming from a dev whose brain is so enmeshed in the WoW mindset that he can't even concieve of something like ranged tank, like the idea is just unmanageable and alien because it wouldn't work in Icecrown Citadel.

Now I understand, I was taking your all these posts too seriously.  I feel pretty silly. sheepish 

[Speedy Cerviche]

In Darkfall the mobs have no agro mechanics and it works pretty well. Mobs act semi-randomly (to prevent them from being  predictable) and do react to proximity and threat level. If their current target takes out his shield while another player runs up behind him and starts whacking him in the back the mob will turn around and face the bigger threat. Even on a super mob if you have 3-4 players box him in and start meleeing while 1-2 guys heal, the mob will start spinning and hitting one guy a few times then switch randomly, keeps the healers on their toes.

Overall Darkfall has a fairly primitive PvE game but I find this kind of mob behavior helps a lot to make PvE more engaging than  more predictable agro management would. Of course, the game needs to have interesting combat in the first place or all of this will be moot, Darkfall does since it is 100% twitch and has a deep physics engine, this guy seems to be hinting that WH40K is going to be auto-aiming and shallow physics. This game is going to have to be damn engaging in other ways (content & balance?) to make up for the shallow basic gameplay & physics engine. WoW managed to do this, other recent MMORPGs have failed miserably (WAR, STO). From the interview with all the ACTION talk and even the Diablo mention, that they're aiming for that sort of Diablo style PvE, will it work? I dunno, Diablo was fun when I was 15 but got tedious and will be even morsoe in MMORPG format, maybe it will be a twist for the WoW crowd but it's still going to come down to execution on content and balance.

[eldaec]

As far as it being new, well to tell the truth I can't think offhand of another MMO that doesn't have a character class who's function is to draw enemy fire (but I didn't play Planetside).  Sounds new enough to me.

The Original big three, UO, AC & EQ

Eve
SWG
Planetside
Puzzle pirates
A tale in the desert
Diablo2 (fuck the haters, yes it is a mmog)
Hellgate
Second life

...all just called to say hi.

[Rendakor]

Hellgate had a tank class (Guardian) IIRC. They used a shield, taunted enemies, etc.

[Morfiend]

Although I'm pretty new I believe there is "tanking" ships in EVE for when doing missions. They dont have taunt, but they have high armor and go in first to take the hits.

[jakonovski]

Hellgate had a tank class (Guardian) IIRC. They used a shield, taunted enemies, etc.

I don't think I ever saw one tanking with a gun though.

[Malakili]

Hellgate had a tank class (Guardian) IIRC. They used a shield, taunted enemies, etc.

I don't think I ever saw one tanking with a gun though.

It happened from time to time, but was more a result of people just looking for interesting builds to play.  There were some guns designed specifically for that class that were pretty awesome though, and could be used one handed with a shield.

[Kail]

Although I'm pretty new I believe there is "tanking" ships in EVE for when doing missions. They dont have taunt, but they have high armor and go in first to take the hits.

The "tanks" being referenced here are specifically aggro controlling tanks; "tanking" as a function of being able to generate threat on an AI mob rather than absorb damage.  Otherwise we get into really nebulous cases where character X is a "tank" because he can take more damage than character Y, and I'm pretty sure you could generate examples of that in just about every game ever made, including WH40k Online.

[Typhon]

As far as it being new, well to tell the truth I can't think offhand of another MMO that doesn't have a character class who's function is to draw enemy fire (but I didn't play Planetside).  Sounds new enough to me.

The Original big three, UO, AC & EQ

Eve
SWG
Planetside
Puzzle pirates
A tale in the desert
Diablo2 (no, fuck you, a game with multiplayer half-assed tacked on isn't an MMO)
Hellgate
Second life

...all just called to say hi.

  A tale in the desert?  Puzzle Pirates?  You could also have included every half-assed Facebook game and still fit in "MMO".  Hell, you could have included Online Hearts.  Throw me a bone and apply a little context.  Please.

[Zetor]

Guild Wars didn't have traditional aggro either (mobs went after whoever was closest usually, and if you kited a mob it usually lost interest in you after a while).

[Sky]

Catching up a little in this thread, reading the wowowowowow interviews...

I think a large part of why I haven't subbed to any mmo except EQ2 since EQ2 launched is pretty understandable...I didn't care for WoW. And everything wants to be like that. So the question is: how many more years will I have to wait to get a AAA mmo outside a niche (eve) that's not trying to be wow? (but we're really not, we're all just guys who play and love wow and we know everyone else does but honestly we're different but we love wow!)

For fuck's sake.

[Arthur_Parker]

So the question is: how many more years will I have to wait to get a AAA mmo outside a niche (eve) that's not trying to be wow?

Ex EA Mythic games producer, Josh Drescher

A great design and brilliant art direction will be crushed into a fiery ball of death if there aren't good tools for implementing them.

Now maybe the above is just blame shifting for WAR.  But given how expensive it is to create an "AAA" mmo, I don't think we will see the current situation changing until somebody figures out that they don't have to present their game client, server backend and art assets as part of a single game vision.  

AC2, LOTRO & DDO are different games but formed from the same core platform.  Ultimately I think it's going to come down to somebody experimenting with different server rulesets for the same game and stumbling on something by accident.  To cut the expensive of doing that investment is needed in the implementation tools, not just for creating scripted PVE encounters but for actually being able to tinker with core systems such as if combat is skill based or class based.  People used to like flavour of the month character builds in skill based games, if the aim is to keep subscribers interested, being able to have flavour of the month server types (that WoW zombie event springs to mind) would be a major advantage.

[eldaec]

So the question is: how many more years will I have to wait to get a AAA mmo outside a niche (eve) that's not trying to be wow?

For fuck's sake.

There seem to be a few heading in Champions Online direction - problem with that game was execution rather than the concept, so you never know.

Though at this point it isn't just the producers who can't concieve of a product not based around Alterac Valley - it's six years since the last meaningful developments in the genre (CoH/EQ2/PS) and seven since EVE, in that time the endless EQ/WoW clones have dropped expectations of the playerbase so dramatically that even they positively recoil at the idea of anything new.

[HaemishM]

The real innovation since WoW came out has been in the business side, not design. How the fuck do we compete with a 300-pound gorilla in the MMOG market? The F2P trend that has taken over is the result of that. Now that DDO has shown success with it, and hopefully both EQ2 and LotRO succeed in some way as well, maybe we can get some innovation in the design side.

[Soln]

the game design for WAR was poor, and the art design was handed to Drescher by GW.  Or is he trying to make another point?