Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online

[Ghambit]

There's a feeling here that given the release date (a fucklong time from now) Vigil may keep their mouths shut so they can at least probe the populace on which design direction they should go before they come out and start chipping away at the NDA.  If this is the case, then for once I like the NDA.  NDAs to me are just for pussies who have a weak design, which in this case is probably the main reason.  Otherwise they're useless.

Even with the vanilla diku they've got goin on now, they could conceivably shift it to a much more combat/pvp/galactic-landrush/genocide oriented game, rather than the current drivel.  They do read the internets dont they?  Dont they? 
'Cause if they do they'll find a shitstorm of hate on their game so far.  At least from those who can read between the lines.

[HaemishM]

In the grim future of the year 40,000, there is only nerdrage.

[Segoris]

Love the GW IP, play lots of WoW... I've heard this almost verbatim somewhere else. Someone help me out here? It was like Boreslammer: Rage of Beckoning or something like that.

I believe if you put on some shitty sunglasses, throw up the satan's horns gesture, and stick your tongue out with your mouth open while running around screaming "I'm a fucking douche bag. Everyone look at me because what I'm promoting is EVERYWHERE WAAAAAGH!" it will come back to you. 

[Bismallah]

Love the GW IP, play lots of WoW... I've heard this almost verbatim somewhere else. Someone help me out here? It was like Boreslammer: Rage of Beckoning or something like that.

I believe if you put on some shitty sunglasses, throw up the satan's horns gesture, and stick your tongue out with your mouth open while running around screaming "I'm a fucking douche bag. Everyone look at me because what I'm promoting is EVERYWHERE WAAAAAGH!" it will come back to you. 

Classic, what is Paul up to these days anyhow?

I hope this game doesnt suck, but... with how bad Warhammer Age of Reckoning was I am not keeping my hopes up.

[5150]

I mean how stupid can you be before someone shoots you in the back of the head for wasting money AND IP....

Well GW let Climax waste a ton of money on the original Warhammer Online, iroinically I think I preferred the original incarnation than the Mythic one.

I got to play a very early version of the Climax game at games day years ago and and aging rig barely runs WAR in a playable fashion (so the experiences were similar) but then I was always under the impression that the Fantasy MMO was modeled after Fantasy role play that Fantasy battle. Maybe Vigil would probably be better off doing an Inquisitor based game than a 40k game at this rate.......

Its fair to say I too am prepping myself for huge disappointment.

[Modern Angel]

Well, look... most of the people here who played WAR enjoyed the fuck out of it for the first 15-20 levels. I will always maintain, forever, that the first 15 levels or so were the greatest levels I've ever spent in any MMO. The problem was that it fell apart in a haze of grind and poor implementation. If they can make WAR, with the 40k IP, and do it right then I don't have any complaints. I just don't think they will because autoattack plus guns is ALWAYS fucking retarded.

[Bzalthek]

The first 15 levels are cool because of the new, not because of the game.  The game has to suck hard to keep the first 15 levels of your first character from being enjoyable.

Also, "and do it right" is the magic bullet.

[eldaec]

I just don't think they will because autoattack plus guns is ALWAYS fucking retarded.

I suspect you're overestimating the prevalence of ranged weaponry in DM.

They are going to limit the power and range of guns 'to balance it with melee' and then discover that with EQ derived mechanics battles are going to last long enough that most of the time, most of the mobs are at melee range when they die. This isn't all that different from an actual 40k game with only a few very powerful units on each side - they end up in melee most of the time.

Your group is going to be a mix of tank (assault marine), healer (apothecary), control (librarian), and ranged dps (devastator).

Only one of those archetypes is going to concentrate on shooting guns.

[Arthur_Parker]

No idea if any of this is true but I found it interesting.

I think the last nail in the Warhammer Coffin is when at the Febuary Baltimore Gamesday Erik Mogensen more or less apologized for the game, and assured people that would never happen to another Games Workshop License again, he seemed more than a little agitated as he spoke those words….

[Malakili]

Your group is going to be a mix of tank (assault marine), healer (apothecary), control (librarian), and ranged dps (devastator).

If the game really does end up like this I will cry myself to sleep for months.

[Modern Angel]

Yeah, I'm sure it will be Ranged DPS class. For whatever reason, though, it looks way, way dumber to have people sit still plinking gunshots at each other instead of trading fireballs. I theoretically know what a gunfight looks like in real life. I don't know what a magic duel looks like.

Still maintaining that WAR's fun goodness in the early game was a cut above any other MMO experience for me. It wasn't just the newness.

[eldaec]

Your group is going to be a mix of tank (assault marine), healer (apothecary), control (librarian), and ranged dps (devastator).

If the game really does end up like this I will cry myself to sleep for months.

Get the sleeping pills in now...

the entire team ... plays a lot of WoW

we have playable code for battleground scenarios already

You're going to have quests, you're going to go out and kill stuff, you're going to group up, you're going to join larger scale battles. It's structured very much like a traditional MMO

HQ's Warhammer 40,000 MMO E3 demo is intended to "shake up Blizzard,"

Side with the forces of Order, or the vile hosts of Destruction

[Megrim]

HQ's Warhammer 40,000 MMO E3 demo is intended to "shake up Blizzard,"

I love this one. It's just so ambrosial.

[Lantyssa]

They're quaking in their money boots.  So much so, it takes an extra second to fall asleep on their pile of cash covered snuggly in their money quilt padded with money.

[Ghambit]

The words "structure" and 40k dont really combine well imo.
The Chaos Lords will not be pleased.

[Modern Angel]

Wait, wait. They're even cribbing Order versus Destruction? 

[Malakili]

Wait, wait. They're even cribbing Order versus Destruction? 

Ok, I don't know if I said it on these boards or not, but I said elsewhere that it was too soon to judge if this would be just another WoW Ripoff, but I take it back now, utter shit incoming, if anyone needs me I'll be playing Dawn of War.

[tazelbain]

Just like WAR! MOOOOOOOHHHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAA!

[HaemishM]

You all know this will fuck your faces like a face-hugger, right?

Amirite?

[kildorn]

"you know, what fixed Oblivion's issues was basically not making it a melee game. I wonder if setting WAR in the future with guns will fix all of it's issues, too!"

I eagerly await the news that this entire team was in a coma for WAR's release, or only played it for 10 levels before xeroxing it's design docs and starting to give pet names to their bank accounts.

[Arthur_Parker]

I think some of you are looking at this the wrong way, WAR was wonderfully entertaining, the game was crap (post T2) but things like the starfucking thread were awesome.

[Modern Angel]

Yeah. I'm just... didn't their marketing team step in and say "Dudes, there's this failure of a game set in the same general IP as the game we're making. Let's not use ANY game terms they use, k?"

[Trippy]

Wait, wait. They're even cribbing Order versus Destruction? 

Order vs Destructiion is a GW thing. They've been using those terms (or variants) for a long time now. E.g. the Eye of Terror Summer campaign in 2003 was "Order vs. Disorder".

[Modern Angel]

Did they? Wait, people can remember more than a year ago?


(I played about 30 games for that campaign and I actually don't remember that)

[kildorn]

I'm not really sure when GW decided that the races should start getting along. Relic has pretty much the best take on it so far. Even though IG and Space Marines are on the same theoretical side, they're STILL prone to space marines deciding they're not same team ENOUGH and going all nuke them from orbit on them.

[Modern Angel]

Having the Imperium all be on the same side makes perfect sense. The conceit for us at the tabletop was always that the Guard army was secretly in cahoots with Chaos or rebellious or whatever and not really Imperium at all. It's the grand alliance of Orks, Chaos and Dark Eldar which crops up over and over again which doesn't make much sense.

[Malakili]

Having the Imperium all be on the same side makes perfect sense. The conceit for us at the tabletop was always that the Guard army was secretly in cahoots with Chaos or rebellious or whatever and not really Imperium at all. It's the grand alliance of Orks, Chaos and Dark Eldar which crops up over and over again which doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, pretty much.  They just lump "Evil humans, evil elves and orks" together cause anyone who doesn't care about 40k lore will just be like "ok, this looks like it makes sense" and then never give it another thought.  The main problem I have is REALLY with two faction games.  Hell, if 2 faction PvP was proven to be just plain awesome, i'd say, well they had to squeeze it in to work.  However, 2 faction PvP is played out, boring, and quite frankly doesn't work very well outside of battlegrounds anyway. 40k is the perfect IP to break the 2 faction mold, and thats the real pisser more than anything.  The fact that they can look at WAR and think what they are doing is a good idea is absolutely beyond any reason.

[Stabs]

2 faction pvp could work if it models itself on sports/chess rather than traditional MMOs. Football works with 2 sides because you balance the sides. If there are 7 of you playing football in a park you generally have the best 3 vs the other 4 because anything else is rather pointless.

So to make it work you need to close rolling new characters for winning factions. Until the influx of new people causes the tables to turn then recruitment shuts down as the former losers start to dominate. Other things that are desirable to make this system balanced are smaller character improvements (so a veteran can't massacre 20 newbies with one hand tied behind his back).

You also need to challenge the honour farming paradigm where what matters to an individual player is his own progress rather than his faction's progress. You need a game that isn't designed to have its players develop special little snowflakes whose value is decided by being better than their team-mates. Possibly dispense entirely with individual loot.

It's not impossible to design a game for two sides that is enjoyable but they would need to limit players in ways that most modern MMO players would feel are unacceptable. (E.g. no alts, no loot, faction progression not personal progression, no server transfers, no joining the winning faction, etc).

But if the aim of the game is to dress your doll up in the most gorgeous spiky armour then 2 faction doesn't work as the best way to pursue the aim is to join the winning side.

It's possible of course that they view Warhammer Online as a success. Over a million boxes sold and it looks like they'll be able to turn off the servers within 3 years of launch and not have to worry about it any more. That may be the business model they're after with 40K Online.

[Azazel]

Also consider that said Space Marines dont actually have any free will yes?  They're psychically controlled by the Emperor.  Who in tabletop terms is the player.

No they're bloody not.

Also, you guys keep missing things like Space Wolves. Who like to partay. 

[eldaec]

Space Wolves might party, but not the sort of party that consists of 6 marines, with at least 1 of each class from the holy trinity, and is out on the hunt for 10 giant rats who automagically appear every 3 minutes in a 50 ft x 50 ft area of the spooky woods.

[eldaec]

Yeah, pretty much.  They just lump "Evil humans, evil elves and orks" together cause anyone who doesn't care about 40k lore will just be like "ok, this looks like it makes sense" and then never give it another thought. 

It's worse than that, if they just wanted vaguely good vs vaguely evil then the sides would be...

Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Ork
Eldar
Chaos
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Tyrannids

vs

Tau on an especially sunny day.
Squats maybe?

The main problem I have is REALLY with two faction games.  Hell, if 2 faction PvP was proven to be just plain awesome, i'd say, well they had to squeeze it in to work.  However, 2 faction PvP is played out, boring, and quite frankly doesn't work very well outside of battlegrounds anyway. 40k is the perfect IP to break the 2 faction mold, and thats the real pisser more than anything.  The fact that they can look at WAR and think what they are doing is a good idea is absolutely beyond any reason.

But this is completely right ofc.

[Simond]

Neither Orks nor Tyranids are evil per se. 

[Stabs]

Neither Orks nor Tyranids are evil per se. 

Castronova argued pretty compellingly that if a game race is based on the tropes of fantasy evil it is still evil even if the (half-arsed) back story says they aren't.

http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/12/the_horde_is_ev.html

Arguing that Orcs (or Orks) aren't evil because GW says so is like saying vampires aren't evil if Stephanie Meyer says they're hot.

[Malakili]

http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/12/the_horde_is_ev.html

So here's my view: When a real person chooses an evil avatar, he or she should be conscious of the evil inherent in the role. There are good reasons for playing evil characters - to give others an opportunity to be good, to help tell a story, to explore the nature of evil. But when the avatar is a considered an expression of self, in a social environment, then deliberately choosing a wicked character is itself a (modestly) wicked act.

Also

Third, I'm defending a point of view that I'm disappointed is not more widely-held among academics, which is that these worlds are not mere play-spaces, nor mere extensions of the real world. They are a place where we can hear a faint echo of things unconscious, even mystical. What happens in these places is deeply significant; their symbology carries genuine religious and spiritual meaning; they are (or ought to be held and protected as) different, fundamentally different and distinct, from life as usual

Ok, so the guy is just a complete whack job.

[Modern Angel]

That blog post is one of the most navel gazing pieces of smug shit I've read in a long time.