Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online

[Megrim]

Neither Orks nor Tyranids are evil per se. 

Castronova argued pretty compellingly that if a game race is based on the tropes of fantasy evil it is still evil even if the (half-arsed) back story says they aren't.

http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/12/the_horde_is_ev.html

Arguing that Orcs (or Orks) aren't evil because GW says so is like saying vampires aren't evil if Stephanie Meyer says they're hot.

Yeeeeea... try not to make the mistake of taking anything posted on Terra Nova too seriously. Most of the people who post there (how to put this politely?), are, well... the word "academic" is a little generous. Especially when the quoted article starts throwing around terms like 'ethics' as means of backing visibly vapid claims.

[eldaec]

Neither Orks nor Tyranids are evil per se. 

This is true.

If the 'not evil' side was Tau, Orks, Nids, I'd be willing to forgive the 2 realm bullshit.

[Azazel]

No idea if any of this is true but I found it interesting.

Wow. That guy is a terrible writer.

[Azazel]

Castronova argued pretty compellingly that if a game race is based on the tropes of fantasy evil it is still evil even if the (half-arsed) back story says they aren't.

See, I read that article and came to the conclusion that the author is a fucking dickhead. He's also incorrect about several of his assertations. But mostly, a dickhead.

[Teleku]

The thought that the Orks and Nyds, who's entire premise as a civilization is to destroy and kill absolutely everything in the galaxy, don't fall on the side of evil is hilarious.  Just because they aren't following chaos doesn't change things.  I know the whole universe is Grimdark, and the empire commits all sorts of atrocities in their crusades, but you can say they are actually at least doing something to keep the galaxy safe since they are just about the only ones dedicated to fighting Chaos, and are the main thing that are holding Chaos forces back from consuming the galaxy.  The Eldar fit into this as well, though have less of an impact because their numbers are much smaller.  Orks and Nyds are hellbent on destroying everything.

Tau are probably the race you could say is most 'good', since they are tolerant and blah blah blah (though they re still dicks about other things).

[Trippy]

Orks don't want to destroy everything. If they did there would be nothing left to fight.

What Tyranids do I compare to, say, a locust swarm that eats all the vegetation in its path. It's not like the locust are being malevolent or anything, that's just what they do.

[Triforcer]

Orks don't want to destroy everything. If they did there would be nothing left to fight.

What Tyranids do I compare to, say, a locust swarm that eats all the vegetation in its path. It's not like the locust are being malevolent or anything, that's just what they do.

Doesn't some sort of Overmind control the Tyranids?  Don't they even have infiltrating spies that can disguise as human and talk and think?  If they were truly mindless, then yes they aren't evil.

[Ratman_tf]

It's not about order and chaos when splitting up the sides in 40K. The Tau won't work with the Orks because the Orks are pretty much the opposite of the Greater Good. The Tyranids and Necrons won't work with anybody else, they just don't care. The Eldar may work with other races, and they may screw them over, It's all the same to them. Humanity despite it's blustering might work with some of the more reasonable races if it means they get something out of it. Dark Eldar may work with the other races, but don't turn your back on them. (Sound advice in 40k generally, but especially the DE) Chaos... whothefuck knows? Probably a bad idea to ally yourself to Chaos, but they might offer your side kewl powars and legions. Just keep checking yourself in the mirror in case you start growing a third arm.

And not to mention all the factions fight amongst themselves too.

[Ratman_tf]

Doesn't some sort of Overmind control the Tyranids?  Don't they even have infiltrating spies that can disguise as human and talk and think?  If they were truly mindless, then yes they aren't evil.

AFAIK, the Tyranids are not intelligent as we understand it. The hive mind is just as much instinct as intellect.

Genestealers can become human like, via... you guessed it, genestealing. Even pass as humans for a few generations. But eventually the swarm comes, and they rejoin the hive fleet. The hybrids will eventually have pure genestealer children. They are not (again AFAIK) a stable population.

[Bzalthek]

The argument is really pointless because the concept of evil is vague to begin with and then trying to apply it to (fictional) races and cultured that are completely alien is absurd.  All it really boils down to is we identify with the human (esque) characters because we are human.  Anything non-human that is hostile to humans and tries to murder-death-kill the human characters are evil.  Of course the logic only works one way because when humans try to murder-death-kill others we are not automatically evil.

Imagine the Tyranids are sentient.  And they're entire race depends on devouring all that is before it to continue.  But these pink fleshy fuckers are out there killing us, using up the resources we need to survive, and if they're not using it they're polluting and despoiling it.  They are a threat to our existence and are obviously evil.

[DLRiley]

The argument is really pointless because the concept of evil is vague to begin with and then trying to apply it to (fictional) races and cultured that are completely alien is absurd.  All it really boils down to is we identify with the human (esque) characters because we are human.  Anything non-human that is hostile to humans and tries to murder-death-kill the human characters are evil.  Of course the logic only works one way because when humans try to murder-death-kill others we are not automatically evil.

Imagine the Tyranids are sentient.  And they're entire race depends on devouring all that is before it to continue.  But these pink fleshy fuckers are out there killing us, using up the resources we need to survive, and if they're not using it they're polluting and despoiling it.  They are a threat to our existence and are obviously evil.

Except if the tryanids do that they will starve, which is what the 40k universe never actually addresses. in fact considering that much the tryanids are pretty fail. at least the necrons have a much better plan than that. as far as humans using up all their resources, the tryanids eat people (anything that doesn't talk or has red meat is a bonus), and come from another galaxy where they ate everything.....

[Ratman_tf]

How Ratman would do it. Or. My armchair is very comfortable, thanks.

Side A is the Imperium. All of it. SOB, IG, SM, etc.

Side B is the filthy Xenos. Eldar and Tau. Teamed up for some bizzare reason.

Side C is monster play. Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Dark Eldar. They can monster play and participate in PvP. These Side C factions are not aligned with each other.

[Trippy]

Where's Chaos SM?

[Bzalthek]

Here's my plan, thanks for asking.

Side A:  You
Side B: Everyone Else

Which race will you play?  ::Ork
Currently there are 5 planets that Ork armies are fighting.  Pick One.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!

[DLRiley]

Here's my plan, thanks for asking.

Side A:  You
Side B: Everyone Else

Which race will you play?  ::Ork
Currently there are 5 planets that Ork armies are fighting.  Pick One.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!

I give you a 100 million make this happen.

[Ratman_tf]

Where's Chaos SM?

Put them in monster play. I don't want to see Khorne berserkers collecting rat tails.

[jakonovski]

Put them in monster play. I don't want to see Khorne berserkers collecting rat tails.

50% chance of rat tails for the rat tail god!

[Ironwood]

Castronova argued pretty compellingly that if a game race is based on the tropes of fantasy evil it is still evil even if the (half-arsed) back story says they aren't.

See, I read that article and came to the conclusion that the author is a fucking dickhead. He's also incorrect about several of his assertations. But mostly, a dickhead.

This.

[eldaec]

I didn't even read the article and still figured it out.

[Stabs]

Castronova's basic premise - that X isn't evil or not evil just because the game devs say so - is unquestionably valid. People have to think for themselves about moral issues, not just take someone else's word for it.

As for whether evil is a useful concept I would argue that it is. Almost every society has taboos against the unjustified taking of human life.

And that's where Warhammer 40K enters the realm of moral absurdity. Everyone solves every problem by warlike means. Out of cigarettes? Find someone who has a pack and shoot him. Everyone is evil, the society is actually absurd and could not possibly survive. It's a universe populated by Darwin's Law failures. Sci fi Assyrians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Neo-Assyrian_Empire

Now for tabletop wargaming you need that. It would be a royal pain in the arse to set out rank after rank of infantry minatures only to have your opponent plonk a diplomat down and say he's come to negotiate a trade treaty.

Everyone in 40K is evil, not only do they always seek warlike solutions but they are endowed with almost-parodic evil tropes. The Emperor bathing in the blood of 10,000 psionic virgins every day? Of course that's evil, it's directly drawn from the legends of Elizabeth Bathory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

[Malakili]

Castronova's basic premise - that X isn't evil or not evil just because the game devs say so - is unquestionably valid. People have to think for themselves about moral issues, not just take someone else's word for it.

I disagree.  In a fictional universe you can have fictional morality.  You can talk about whether or not such a thing would be moral IN REALITY, but it isn't reality, and I think its important to make the distinction.  

Case in point, it got out of hand for me when he was talking about his 3 year old being scared of his undead character.  Thats because his 3 year old doesn't understand the concept of a MMO, a video game, fiction, and so forth.  The 3 year old might have some vague concept, but the real issue there is that you maybe you shouldn't let your 3 year old watch you play a game that he isn't old enough to understand.  You may as well argue an actor shouldn't play a character in a movie that his toddler would be scared of.

[Stabs]

I disagree.  In a fictional universe you can have fictional morality. 

But you don't share it.

Listen, suppose there's a universe where wearing blue is evil. That's fine and perfectly valid as a fictional idea. But YOU don't put the book down and go away believing wearing blue is evil.

I'm not saying everyone in 40K is evil by their standards. I'm saying everyone in 40K is evil by our standards.

[Malakili]

I'm not saying everyone in 40K is evil by their standards. I'm saying everyone in 40K is evil by our standards.

Ok, fine, but this discussions started with a discussion of factions in the game, and while Order v. Destruction is probably a shit breakdown for 40k, if indeed it WAS relevant, whether or not they were all evil by our standards would make not a bit of difference for how they should structure the game, the FICTIONAL morality is what would matter.  Perhaps more importantly no one should feel particularly bad if they did something in the game that would be evil to do in real life, especially if its in character.

[NowhereMan]

Stabs, I'd say a large part of the reason that 40K seems to have a military solution to everything is because it's a wargame, the focus is entirely on the military side of things with the rest being, maybe, addressed in the fluff. There's plenty of stuff out there referencing human colonies, governors, even inquisitors doing deals with the Eldar or other Xenos. The Tau like to win human colonies over to their side rather than nuke the planet from orbit (which is pretty much what qualifies them as good guys) but it doesn't really get anything more than a mention. The Empire being essentially a giant society doomed to failure? Yeah that's what it is, it's meant to be Assyria and in the game setting we're seeing it at the start of decline, the old strong leaders (Emperor followed by the Primarchs) have gone and it's settled into bureaucracy with fewer periods of genuine success and expansion. The whole thing is doomed it's simple become a matter or fighting constant holding actions against Orks, Chaos, Tyranids and whoever else is out there.

As for Orks and Tyranids being evil, from our point of view they are but at the same time they've got a biological imperative they have no real control over. Orks live to fight and Tyranids live to consume and incorporate and in one sense calling them evil because of that would be like environmentalists arguing humans are evil because we keep having babies and threaten to overpopulate the planet. I guess it seems odd to declare a fundamental aspect of a living thing as evil, especially in the Orks' case since they were engineered as bio-weapons. Really the scale of what's being discussed is on an utterly different level from the sort of individual acts or mutable characters of societies that we'd normally be discussing when bringing up morality.

As far as factions go, really the limitation should be which factions would be willing to work together. Humans, Eldar and Tau on one side works simply because they're all (relatively) rational actors. Orks and Chaos work simply because Orks want a fight and Chaos are more than happy to give them a war against the good guys and promise them a hell of a war afterwards as well. Nekrons and Tyranids don't fit with anyone, they want to destroy and ravage unless you wrote something involving a Daemon Prince managing to possess a Hive Tyrant and some sort of Chaos controlled Hive Fleet.

Sorry this post has nothing to do with the game but there doesn't seem to be anything to say at the moment other than if I wanted to play WoW in space I'd probably hang around of SC On-Line.

[Megrim]

Castronova's basic premise - that X isn't evil or not evil just because the game devs say so - is unquestionably valid. People have to think for themselves about moral issues, not just take someone else's word for it.

Ey, wotsit?

I'm pretty sure that his two basic arguments are:


 "In the Terranova backchannel, an ugly debate (I've been creating most of the ugliness) has erupted over the significance of avatar choice. I've advanced two controversial positions: that avatar choice is not a neutral thing from the standpoint of personal integrity, and that the Horde, in World of Warcraft, is evil. Nobody agrees, but it's been suggested that the community could chew on this a bit."

So for the second premise - he doesn't actually prove that they (Horde) are. But, he uses the:

Castronova's basic premise - that X isn't evil or not evil just because the game devs say so - is unquestionably valid. People have to think for themselves about moral issues, not just take someone else's word for it.

quoted bit to try and convince the reader that pre-formed linguistic constructions are sufficient reason to support his claim. Mind you, this isn't even his main argument for that quote. He goes on to claim "cultural values" prime support, get's the whole thing wrong, and declares the argument complete. This is hardly what one would call an unquestionably valid argument.

As far as the first point he makes about avatar choice, sure, one could argue that this makes sense - but once again, he does not support this in any way beyond the "horde is evil ergo anyone choosing Horde is evil also".

As many people have said, the whole thing is retarded.

[Bzalthek]

He must have missed my thesis about how anyone 'declaring people evil based on what they play in a fucking video game' is evil. ergo ipsofacto qed chef boyardee Castronova is his own uncle.

[Stabs]

The point I was trying to make was a simple one and was a response to a comment that Tyrannids and Orks are not evil per se. Tyrannids are based on Aliens, the bad guys of the James Cameron films. Orcs are the bad guys of Lord of the Rings. You can't put these in your game and say these aren't evil because they are established in popular culture as evil tropes.

(An exception in popular culture is Stan Nicholls' Orcs series but that kind of trope subversion is something we haven't seen much of in video games and certainly wouldn't be suitable in 40K unless intended to be farcical, ie poor widdle misunderstood face-hugging alien).

The reason I quoted Castronova is his argument that tropes cannot be inverted by designer fiat, not his argument that people who play orcs are evil.

[Malakili]

You can't put these in your game and say these aren't evil because they are established in popular culture as evil tropes.

[kildorn]

You can't put these in your game and say these aren't evil because they are established in popular culture as evil tropes.

It's the same reason you can't play a good guy with a german accent.

[Modern Angel]

The things you like are bad and wrong. This is an objectively horrible article written by a gasbag who never left the dorm room.

[Bzalthek]

The point I was trying to make was a simple one and was a response to a comment that Tyrannids and Orks are not evil per se. Tyrannids are based on Aliens, the bad guys of the James Cameron films. Orcs are the bad guys of Lord of the Rings. You can't put these in your game and say these aren't evil because they are established in popular culture as evil tropes.

(An exception in popular culture is Stan Nicholls' Orcs series but that kind of trope subversion is something we haven't seen much of in video games and certainly wouldn't be suitable in 40K unless intended to be farcical, ie poor widdle misunderstood face-hugging alien).

The reason I quoted Castronova is his argument that tropes cannot be inverted by designer fiat, not his argument that people who play orcs are evil.

That's fucking stupid.  Period.  The creator of the work of fiction decides good and evil, as trite as those concepts are.  Just because some jackass brays about "cause Tolkein said so!" doesn't change this.

[Ingmar]

You can't put these in your game and say these aren't evil because they are established in popular culture as evil tropes.

Yeah this is obviously just wrong. I mean, you can't have a movie with good vampires or a Star Trek show with friendly Klingons either, right, since those are already established as evil tropes in pop culture!

[Teleku]

This thread is getting pretty 

No wait, I meant 

[Typhon]

You can't put these in your game and say these aren't evil because they are established in popular culture as evil tropes.

Yeah this is obviously just wrong. I mean, you can't have a movie with good vampires or a Star Trek show with friendly Klingons either, right, since those are already established as evil tropes in pop culture!

You have a german accent, don't you?   

[Simond]

Plus everyone knows that the Alliance are the real Bad Guys in WoW anyway. Just ask WUA.