Re: LOTRO Goes Free to Play : Sept 10 (Sept 8 for Cool Kids)

[Mrbloodworth]

Sounds completely possible, other than they did say there are over 2500 items in the store, I bet its mostly cosmetics/mounts ETC...

[Soln]

So after several days of reading and thinking, I'm thinking that:

• Lifers like me are going to walk in with a crapload of points.
• We're going to keep getting more each month.
• We won't have anything to spend them on, since we start with everything unlocked (including 20 cosmetic slots, a feature I would have cheerfully thrown $20-30 at).

So by the time Turbine puts out another expansion, we're going to have an obscene amount of unspent points, which we'll use to buy the expansion. Which means... Turbine will be making even less money off lifers than they were before.

Am I reading this wrong?

That's about right.  Maybe the point is that there are not that many lifers left playing.

[Modern Angel]

Or maybe the opposite, that there are so many lifers that their revenue stream has dried up a bit.

I'm surprised nobody's commented on the DDO as #5 MMO, LOTRO #8 stat. That surprises the fuck out of me.

EDIT: Oops, sorry. LOTRO is #8 with 5%, DDO we don't know what place but they have 8%

[Mrbloodworth]

Or maybe the opposite, that there are so many lifers that their revenue stream has dried up a bit.

I'm surprised nobody's commented on the DDO as #5 MMO, LOTRO #8 stat. That surprises the fuck out of me.

EDIT: Oops, sorry. LOTRO is #8 with 5%, DDO we don't know what place but they have 8%

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=19230.0

[Modern Angel]

Yeah, what they're saying is quite a bit different than the survey which has AoC as the fifth most popular. Not that the survey is terrible, as NPD is generally pretty good, but it's a little different when a suit offers any sort of hard numbers like 5% market share.

[Zetor]

I think LOTRO's best part (design-wise) is its class setup... you don't just have 4-button dps classes who only do damage and sometimes interrupt or cc, they are all hybrids to a point. Especially the loremaster; I heart my loremaster, pointy hat and all.

There ARE definite problems with it though; so far we tried to get into lotro about 4 times, during our latest bout we got to about mid-lothlorien before people got fed up / burned out again -- maybe the game is just Not For Us. However, it being F2P will probably have us playing again!


edit: actually we all just reactivated with the 3-months-for-the-price-of-2 package to get a truckload of Turbine points if nothing else, so I guess it worked!

[Azazel]

When did you play it, out of interest?

On release.

If you haven't played it since the revamp, EQ2 now isn't the same as what you played then.  Still not my bag, but it's not a bad game now.

I believe you.
However, I spent that time continuing to play EQ! for awhile, as well as WoW parallell to EQ1 and then for some time afterwards, with several breaks, and now with a Lifer sub to LotRO I barely manage to log in. Essentially EQ2 missed my "care factor" time and I'm not so desperate to play a MMO that I'd bother to go back and look at it.

Eisengard

 

See, I'm the opposite. I went back and checked out WoW after maybe four months away and it was awful. Not that any MMO's mechanics are setting the world on fire but coming back to two shot mobs, not read quest text,

I always used to read the quests when I played WoW. LOTRO, on the other hand... I used to, but after awhile it became patently obvious that I was reading a book's page's worth of text about a quest giver, their family, their history and their goat, only to be told to go and collect 10 rat testicles or take this macguffin to Joe Blogs 2 zones away. And then come back. Because of this, now I rarely read, sometimes skim, and mostly skip the quest descriptions entirely.

So after several days of reading and thinking, I'm thinking that:

• Lifers like me are going to walk in with a crapload of points.
• We're going to keep getting more each month.
• We won't have anything to spend them on, since we start with everything unlocked (including 20 cosmetic slots, a feature I would have cheerfully thrown $20-30 at).

So by the time Turbine puts out another expansion, we're going to have an obscene amount of unspent points, which we'll use to buy the expansion. Which means... Turbine will be making even less money off lifers than they were before.
Am I reading this wrong?

It appears it may be a yes to the expansion stuff. However, Lifers are probably more akin to warm bodies, or keeping the population up. I expect they hope to more than make up for the $20 you'd pay for the next Mirkwood with the hordes of F2Pers who will influx into the game.

Also, nothing to spend your points on? After awhile, probably/possibly. It'll depend on how much and how you play.
Realistically, expect:
* xp potions.
* everything that you can spend destiny points on now.
* more bank space.
* more shared bank space.
* something useful at the endgame. Probably to ease grind. (I'm not there yet, so I'm not sure what would fit).
* Vanity clothing items that look effing cool. Especially cloaks.
* Vanity mounts
* Vanity Pets.
* shit to decorate your house and garden with.
* Cosmetic stuff that you curently earn through skirmishes - like new haircuts.
* Later - name changes, server transfers, gender changes.



edits - formatting
[/list]

[Modern Angel]

I didn't actually like Lothlorien. I fucking hate elves so that doesn't help. It was also sort of a casual endgame place that had all the markings of that. Now you can skip it entirely and head right over to Mirkwood which I much prefer.

[Sky]

And I never said others games were simply bad, eq2 is a fine game, but really, its lagged so far behind with its engine capabilities (stencil shadows finally don't suck all but 5 FPS out) that I stand by my assessment.

Really? I was running cpu shadows three and a half years ago with a middling core 2 duo. It's engine still has more features than most mmo titles coming out now, unless you're just talking about gpu shadow inclusion? Otherwise, the mapping and effects (and cpu shadows) are amazing, and were stunningly brilliant for their time in an mmo title. Sure, you can argue about style vs technical prowess, EQ2's been pretty light in the style category, but to call it out on the capability of the engine is humorous to anyone who has actually played the game beyond the initial retail release (which I despised).

I said if you want the best mmo experiences, this includes not having to dick around with graphic settings to get a decent frame rate for 30 min

Really? Develop for a console, then. Because it's so difficult to tweak options for a few minutes then save it as a preset and never touch it again.

[Yegolev]

I was running cpu shadows three and a half years ago with a middling core 2 duo.

1024x768?

I was angry at first, then five minutes later I was "meh", and another ten minutes later I had completed all the stages of grief and now eagerly await my increased storage.

In fact, I'd like EQ2 to do this so I could have an excuse to try it again.

DDO is not for me, apparently, but the store doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.

[Modern Angel]

The caterwauling in chat is pretty hilarious in game. Nothing's fundamentally changing for subscribers but at least three people were coming up with "read the fine print" conspiracy theories about subscribers having to eat tremendous costs. A guildmate related someone comparing Turbine to BP.

[Stormwaltz]

Also, nothing to spend your points on? After awhile, probably/possibly. It'll depend on how much and how you play.

Rather than SirBruce you with a fat stack of quotes and one-line answers, I'll sort all my thoughts into piles.

* xp potions - It appears these will be for freeloaders, adding the bonus rest XP subbers and lifers get now.
* everything that you can spend destiny points on now - In my case... nothing.
* more bank space - They haven't announced additional bank space, though I'd love it if they did. What's been said is that freeloaders get less bank space than suibbers/lifers, and can pay to unlock more.
* more shared bank space - See above.
* Vanity Pets - As a Lore-Master, I already have a bunch of these. I never pull them out.
* Later - name changes, server transfers, gender changes. - A given. But I don't need any of these, and I've no clue how many others would either. After two years plus, I'm pretty settled.

Which leaves:

* something useful at the endgame. Probably to ease grind. (I'm not there yet, so I'm not sure what would fit).

Faction barter items and LI parts would be the best option. But again, many lifers have already ground out all this stuff. I mentioned my concern about Turbine Store health potions killing the AH market for potion-making Scholars on Casual Stroll to Mordor, and Goldenstar pointed out that it had already been destroyed by people bartering faction items for pots. To me, that suggests people have already exhausted the "good" barter items.

* Vanity clothing items that look effing cool. Especially cloaks.
* Vanity mounts
* shit to decorate your house and garden with.
* Cosmetic stuff that you curently earn through skirmishes - like new haircuts.

I don't see a hint of this in their announcements but it could be in there. It would work for me - I've bought tons of decorative stuff in Sims 3. Unless they do start adding more storage, though, it would quickly exacerbate the existing storage issues.

You know what would sell really well? Transferring unlocked Deeds and Traits from one character to an alt. That would save people so much grind, they could charge $40 for each copy and people would pay. It would lower their sever use, too -- people wouldn't spend hours grinding on trash mobs.

[Mrbloodworth]

And I never said others games were simply bad, eq2 is a fine game, but really, its lagged so far behind with its engine capabilities (stencil shadows finally don't suck all but 5 FPS out) that I stand by my assessment.

Really? I was running cpu shadows three and a half years ago with a middling core 2 duo. It's engine still has more features than most mmo titles coming out now, unless you're just talking about gpu shadow inclusion? Otherwise, the mapping and effects (and cpu shadows) are amazing, and were stunningly brilliant for their time in an mmo title. Sure, you can argue about style vs technical prowess, EQ2's been pretty light in the style category, but to call it out on the capability of the engine is humorous to anyone who has actually played the game beyond the initial retail release (which I despised).

I said if you want the best mmo experiences, this includes not having to dick around with graphic settings to get a decent frame rate for 30 min

Really? Develop for a console, then. Because it's so difficult to tweak options for a few minutes then save it as a preset and never touch it again.

I think I pontificated in detail about how I enjoyed the techniques EQ2 employees around here somewhere.

[Yegolev]

I've bought tons of decorative stuff in Sims 3. Unless they do start adding more storage, though, it would quickly exacerbate the existing storage issues.

I believe I read about twenty slots for cosmetic items in the official propaganda, indicating a separate cosmetic vault.  Did I misread again?  Because that would be neat.  The trouble* I have is that more than one "cosmetic" item I have is actually a piece of normal equipment.


*Possible exaggeration.

[Mrbloodworth]

I believe I read about twenty slots for cosmetic items in the official propaganda,

I think that refers to just the cosmetic slots on your paper doll. (2 outfits, ten slots each - twenty slots)

[Modern Angel]

Except there aren't ten slots on the cosmetic doll. There's like 7.

[Ollie]

They'll introduce a separate 20-slot storage that only holds cosmetic items. About time too, since now they hog up regular vault space. Linky quote from Patience.

[Mrbloodworth]

I stand corrected. Sounds good.

Except there aren't ten slots on the cosmetic doll. There's like 7.

There are cosmetic weapons (brooms and frying pans, cold fish), but yes, seems I was wrong.

[Stormwaltz]

They'll introduce a separate 20-slot storage that only holds cosmetic items. About time too, since now they hog up regular vault space. Linky quote from Patience.

I hadn't seen that. Thanks.

[Soln]

you know what'd be really cool?  A LotRO EMU.  One could start with open world PvP (minus starting areas) or PvMP.

hopefully someone's looking at this

[Modern Angel]

Hell, I always said that if they went back to the original idea of 1 Normal PC = 2 Monster PCs, made Monster Play free for Monsters only they'd have a gem.

[Yegolev]

I was going to retort before I remembered that Monster Play is shit.  PvP, no... can't have that.  PvM needs some work, and by that I mean the Ettenmoors and its systems need to be abandoned.

[WayAbvPar]

This has gotten me to look into getting a 10 day trial. I already have a Turbine account, so I can't just go from trial page and create an account, apparently. Have a query in to support, which will probably get answered just in time for F2P.

The more I think about it, the more I am liking the concept, at least. Being able to pick and choose when I spend my money will give the game a longer life for me. With subscription models I cancel when I get bored, since I can't justify the costs. With this model I can check back in now and then; if something catches my fancy, I can play (and spend more money) from there.

Where does everyone play? I suppose I could check the subforum...

[Mrbloodworth]

This has gotten me to look into getting a 10 day trial. I already have a Turbine account, so I can't just go from trial page and create an account, apparently. Have a query in to support, which will probably get answered just in time for F2P.

The more I think about it, the more I am liking the concept, at least. Being able to pick and choose when I spend my money will give the game a longer life for me. With subscription models I cancel when I get bored, since I can't justify the costs. With this model I can check back in now and then; if something catches my fancy, I can play (and spend more money) from there.

Where does everyone play? I suppose I could check the subforum...

Brandywine.

[Modern Angel]

I was going to retort before I remembered that Monster Play is shit.  PvP, no... can't have that.  PvM needs some work, and by that I mean the Ettenmoors and its systems need to be abandoned.

Disagree. I think the fundamentals are reasonably sound but the entire thing suffers from a weird combination of bloat and neglect. As I recall, the initial idea was to pimp PvM quite a bit as a fun side game, lower the entry so everyone level 10+ could be a monster and have a power ratio of two monsters equals one hero. That last bit is important and where it got all fucked up. The idea that the monsters are like mobs, weaker toe to toe, and requiring some sort of tactics against our Brave Heroes of Yore was brilliant. It ended up falling by the wayside and now it's... I don't know what it is.

[Soln]

it seems to be mostly used to earn Destiny Points, which are used to buy Hope for raids.

[Sheepherder]

The idea that the monsters are like mobs, weaker toe to toe, and requiring some sort of tactics against our Brave Heroes of Yore was brilliant. It ended up falling by the wayside and now it's... I don't know what it is.

Huh, "brilliant."  I would have went with "completely counter-intuitive."

[Modern Angel]

Why? If it had worked you would have had more monsters than heroes at any given time.

[Azazel]

Rather than SirBruce you with a fat stack of quotes and one-line answers, I'll sort all my thoughts into piles.

Stuff like double-xp potions will at some point be part of the game. You've never run out of rested? Anyway, you can already spend DP on that, so it's very likely. Regardless of the FPers not having access to rested unless they cough up. What that means is that VIPs get to use that extra destiny on their MP characters.

Just because you don't spend your DP on stuff doesn't mean others don't. (I don't either, but that's by the by). Ditto Vanity pets, Vanity Mounts, new haircuts, sex change surgery and fancy pants.

Yes, they've said that FPers won't get as much bank space, but honestly this is one of the most obvious things for them to do for subscribers and to monetise the FPers. Bank space and Shared bank don't directly effect what you can do while out adventuring, but it's fucking nice to have. I'd expect an addition to the cosmetic wardrobe space at some stage as well, but not at transition. You'll just have another tab (or bag) for the wardrobe. At some stage I would not be surprised at all to see larger bags, since their bags are ridiculously small already considering the amount of random shit that drops in this game.

And sure, most of that stuff isn't in their announcement, but we're 3 months out, and they've only just told us of the F2P changes. How do you think they'll fill up the Turbine shop?

[Yegolev]

I was going to retort before I remembered that Monster Play is shit.  PvP, no... can't have that.  PvM needs some work, and by that I mean the Ettenmoors and its systems need to be abandoned.

Disagree. I think the fundamentals are reasonably sound but the entire thing suffers from a weird combination of bloat and neglect. As I recall, the initial idea was to pimp PvM quite a bit as a fun side game, lower the entry so everyone level 10+ could be a monster and have a power ratio of two monsters equals one hero. That last bit is important and where it got all fucked up. The idea that the monsters are like mobs, weaker toe to toe, and requiring some sort of tactics against our Brave Heroes of Yore was brilliant. It ended up falling by the wayside and now it's... I don't know what it is.

I'll agree with the neglect part.  Remember when they bumped up max level but didn't increase the monster abilities?  Good times.  Parallel to that, creeps don't get LI, or any equipment actually.  In practice it seems that I spend most of my time trying to find a raiding party, or trying to chase down some mounted freeps while on foot, or trying to find the scattered members of my raiding party, all while hoping that some sparkly elf doesn't ride up and one-shot me.  So, not sure about that two-to-one thing, maybe because I play creep.  First I have heard of it, actually, but I don't read the boards.  Of course, maybe it's just not for me.  It has its fans, since the Ettenmoors are never empty, but I feel like it has been left behind while the main game went on.

Now, if it was integrated into a skirmish instance, I would not have to do so much sloooow travel across a large map before being one-shotted.

[tazelbain]

It's dumb from the get go.  The whole game around revolves pimping your hero into a badass and then PvM asks you throw it aside to play some weak,generic mob.  The only way to do it is make monster directly tied to player characters.  Same stats, same advancement, different skins.  Red vs Blue.

[Yegolev]

There is a good deal more grind involved in upgrading my spider than I had assumed when I signed up.  The thing that prevents me from advancing is the fact that I can only kill trash mobs near Gramsfoot and those only give like 5 DP per kill.  Meanwhile, that upgrade I need to actually maybe hurt some Moria-tempered dwarf costs hundreds or thousands of DP.  I have to raid keeps to get DP, and I suck at that.  Plus running through the woods from keep to keep is not quite as fun as it sounds, for previously-mentioned reasons.  If a freep can get max level in a month of playing, a creep should also.

I am hoping that DP is changed in some way.  Seems likely that VIPs will be able to buy DP, which would make it far less agonizing to upgrade a creep, but I'm not sure that is the best solution.  Maybe.  Incentive for playing a spider is lacking, for me.

[Spiff]

One of the main differences, these days anyhow, is also that normal player characters (freeps) don't really advance through PvP.
Sure, higher ranks open up a set of PvP armour, but for almost any class it's ridiculous how much worse it is compared to stuff you pick up in regular endgame instances (considering it is by far the hardest armour to get, this pisses people off).

Monster players (creeps) however, have to rank up (through killing freeps) to open up new and better skills.

Basically freeps enter the PvP area fully decked out, while creeps start with a huge disadvantage.
But since Turbine seemingly wanted to balance it more evenly they bumped up creeps so much that when they reach higher ranks they're bordering on OP.

Anyhow that's just one of a very long list of things that are broken with PvMP.
Some days I liked PvMP at the start of the game when freeps were the 'heroes' and creeps were akin to cannon fodder ... and then come the days when people decide to camp/farm the other side 'cause "hey, fuck it, if they didn't want to get farmed, they shouldn't have joined the dark side!".

You want PvP that doesn't make people want to peel of their own skin sooner or later, you'd better aim for some sort of 1v1 balance.

[Modern Angel]

So here's how you fuck this up: hold back all updates, including bug fixes, until the f2p model goes live in mid to late fall. That way your bread and butter people who are subbed now associate slow content release with the changing model.

This bit maybe belongs more properly in the LOTRO forum but Jesus fuck, that long between content updates? One of the selling points for me was a steadier release of low key content than WoW.

[Mrbloodworth]

Bunch of random dev quotes from the forums on some things.

Previously purchased SOA content and FTP:

Don't forget that in addition to the points you're getting if you continue to subscribe until launch, you also will earn points in the game through gameplay, so you'll be able to purchase some of the content if you choose to, without paying any real money for it.

Your subscription didn't cover content; it covered your access to the servers. Right now if you stop your subscription, you lose *all* access to the game. Under the new model if you drop your subscription, you can still keep playing the game with limitations that can be overcome.

Yes. As a former subscriber, you're not subject to the natural caps on gold and inventory bags that free players have.

Essentially, it's like this: When you purchased Shadows of Angmar, you had (have) to have a subscription to access that content. If you no longer subscribe, you lose access to it.

Under the new model, even if you drop your subscription you can keep playing for free, but not everything is available to you like it is for subscribers. You won't lose access to all of the SOA content, but you will lose access to some of it unless you purchase it. As it stands now, under the current plan you can play some of the starting content and the epic storyline up to Moria for free, and the landscape up to Moria is free as well.

One of the things the beta is for is to help us determine which parts, if any, of the additional content from SOA should be made free and which should be made purchasable and for how much.

So in other words, no final answer yet, but the beta will help it get finalized!

Meghan

Foreclosures at last?

We'll figure this out, though I am not sure when it's scheduled to be revamped. The reason you don't lose your house now if you don't pay is that too many players complained that they lost their houses (because you did used to lose it if you didn't pay the upkeep) - all kinds of things can prevent you from logging in for a while.

P.S. My main's house is currently locked. :P

PvMP change good or bad?

If you are not a VIP you will not be able to enter the Ettenmoors on either side.

Lifetime Account Members Thread

As a lifetime account, nothing changes for you - you still have access to all of the content you do today, you'll get content updates for free, but you may need to buy expansion packs, just as you do now. The difference is that you can buy expansions with Turbine Points, effectively gettng them for free if you save up the stipend instead of using it in the LOTRO Store for other things.

Have you guys checked out the DDO Store at all?

While LOTRO's pricing will be largely refined during the beta, its pricing model won't differ that much from DDO's. Take a look, realizing that their VIPs also get 500 points (in addition to the points that everyone earns in the game through DDO's Favor system), and decide for yourselves.

In fact, here are a few links that might help you - you don't even need to download the game.

Store Specials: Lists the original price as well as the sale price.
Featured Item of the Week: Haste Potions!
This page is great - has quite a few items on it.

Hope that helps give you some facts to help the discussion. :)

I fear for the best community in any MMO

I've seen this concern a good bit of late and I'm not sure I fully understand it. This community grew out of a group of people who did not always see eye-to-eye or have the same goals. We have casual players, hardcore players, PvMP'ers, Raiders, Role Players. Most people would tell you those groups cannot co-exist well. Yet, with LOTRO they do.  I think it's far too soon to start judging people. Especially those you have never met.

Remember, each of 'Us' was once one of 'Them'.

A bit confused about max level for VIP?

The chart is designed to show a player who has never touched LOTRO what they get at various levels. If you came to LOTRO on day one of the Free-to-Play launch, that's what you would get.

For existing subscribers and lifetime members, nothing changes for you as long as you maintain your subscription (that's what makes you a VIP). So anything you have now (like your current level cap) would remain the same.

Number of Bags

Yes, you will be able to buy additional shared storage, and there is also a cosmetic item wardrobe that will hold 20 items (it does a couple of other nifty things, but we'll spill the beans on that later this summer. ;) )

Bags are still maxed at 5, for now.

Meghan

How much money (is 500 points worth)

Pricing is still to be finalized, but there's not necessarily a fixed price since they go on sale sometimes, or special bundles are offered at a discount, etc.

I'm going to confuse your math a little bit here.  In addition to points going on sale or being offered in various discounted bundles, the DDO team also places items within the store on sale as well. So you may well be able to buy your hair dyes at less than 195 points each during a sale on that item.

So if you took advantage of both a discounted points bundle, and a discounted item sale, the costs change quite a bit. That's why it's hard to say something definitive like, "Item A will cost X points which is Y dollars."

Thought this would be handy for the conversation: DDO Store Guide

POINT BUNDLE                                   DESCRIPTION                                                PRICE (USD)*
420 Points            400 Turbine Points (+ 20 Bonus Points) to use in the DDO Store            $6.50
1,550 Points    1,200 Turbine Points (+ 350 Bonus Points) to use in the DDO Store            $19.50
2,500 Points    1,820 Turbine Points (+ 680 Bonus Points) to use in the DDO Store            $29.50
5,000 Points    3,100 Turbine Points (+ 1,900 Bonus Points) to use in the DDO Store    $49.99
 

See link to see prices of items.

EDIT: Random fun thing: http://www.lotro-russia.com/   

The player base is hard core (taken from the fancy post your image site thing they have for this version):