The Thrill Is Gone

[Dtrain]

Also, play more League of Legends you know its the best use of your gaming time out there.

Wait, WHAT?

I stopped playing LoL because it simply WASN'T!  It takes me 10 minutes to even get TO the action because of the searching, countdowns, load, game start delay, moving to positions...


Now, starcraft on the other hand, that's how you do it. 1m and you're in the game, another minute and you're fighting, games can last 5-30m.

Starcraft doesn't come close, within each champion and each team composition and each fight and each item build there is so much variation.  Starcraft will never ever ever match the amount of possible gameplay.  Also Starcraft is too fucking intense, too focused and too neurotic I'd rather watch it than play it.  Its possible that the editor will do some amazing shit and I'll probably buy it but LoL's core game > SC2 core game for enjoying your spare time.

We get it man, if League of Legends had a mouth, you would kiss it and marry it.

But I do agree about your reasons for not liking StarCraft, and I feel much the same about RTS in general. Funny thing is that I used to love them. Then I started to get too busy for the requisite time investment to capture even a moderately competitive framework for the games. I played Rise of Nations, and really appreciated the efforts to reduce that element of the process. And then Kohan II went the rest of the way towards convincing me that the standard "ClickClickClickClick" micromanaging RTS format is something I no longer enjoy.

[LK]

I do wish there were more games like Anno and Settlers... without ass-tastic DRM.

[Ghambit]

I can Bronze in 12 minutes!   

[robusticus]

Make an awesome Mechwarrior MMO

Make Red Baron fucking Online.

or maybe I'm just getting old and jaded.

Generation X will be first to retire and want to play video games all the time.  But right now we are sandwiched between people that wouldn't know a good game if it bit them in the ass.  The good news is we have all the power and money.

I take it you mean the original Dynamix Mechwarrior straight out of hippieville USA (Eugene, OR)?  With the Locust circle strafing machine gun fire to take out the Battlemaster's leg ftw?  Or having and using jumpjets actually meaning something?  I take it you aren't gonna subup on Villagers & Heroes (bonus points for honesty in the title.  Very Sierra styling).

I thought the Crescent's Hawk games were good ones, cyan-lime-magenta and everything.  Sandbox RPG "over 4 million locations" might as well make it an MMO.  But no, that's the same sad story  - the same story on the frontpage of this site this very day (Infinity Ward).

[Bzalthek]

Wtf, stream of consciousness posting?

[robusticus]

Wtf, stream of consciousness posting?

Urg, no, just editor wigging out on me.  The 4 million quote is from the back of the box on mobygames.  One of the founders of that company is now running GarageGames?  Dunno if that means sandbox, perfectly balanced comparative advantage and first RTS ever translated over 20 years later, or if this is Infinity Ward's story 20 years from now, as I don't personally know any of those guys or even seen em on the internet.

[UnSub]

Dead Space totally ripped off Mechwarrior's "destroy the limbs" mechanic.

[Xanthippe]

I don't understand why Mythic did not simply make DAOC v.2, and Cryptic did not make COH v.2 - instead we get Warhammer and Champs Online. 

I guess for the same reason UO v.2 never got made?

Which I still cannot fathom.

[Malakili]

I don't understand why Mythic did not simply make DAOC v.2, and Cryptic did not make COH v.2 - instead we get Warhammer and Champs Online. 

I guess for the same reason UO v.2 never got made?

Which I still cannot fathom.

WoW is why.  Both Mythic and Cryptic tried to incorporate a WoW style quest grind into their game, and it sucked, just like it does in WoW.  The difference in that in WoW the rest of the game makes it tolerable, and in WAR and Champs, you just end up quitting.  Listen, I know WoW did questing and that was a big deal, and it was a big change from Everquest being able to quest to max level, but that alone doesn't make for a good leveling experience, or a good game.  I've said it before and I say it again though I realize a lot of people will say I'm probably just looking at the past through the lens of nostalgia, but as bad as "grinding" can be, at least you can choose what you want to kill and go where you want to go.   With the quest grind em ups lately, you may as well be playing a linear RPG instead of a game that ostensibly has this big open world to explore.

[Draegan]

I liked the questing in WOW, it was a fun experience the few times I did it.  But I'm assuming that's not what you mean, and you really mean that WOW's mechanics overall were fun where the other games were not.

[Mrbloodworth]

I dont know if the thrill is gone for me for all MMO's, but clearly i am a bit over the DIKU and typical combat systems.

[Sky]

as bad as "grinding" can be, at least you can choose what you want to kill and go where you want to go. 

Questing doesn't preclude you from doing this, any more than having viable solo rewards doesn't stop people from raiding.

Turns out people like to have directed solo play while still being able to interact with other people when they want to. Resistance is futile and high in saturated fats.

[Goreschach]

I don't understand why Mythic did not simply make DAOC v.2, and Cryptic did not make COH v.2 - instead we get Warhammer and Champs Online. 

I guess for the same reason UO v.2 never got made?

Which I still cannot fathom.

WoW is why.  Both Mythic and Cryptic tried to incorporate a WoW style quest grind into their game, and it sucked, just like it does in WoW.  The difference in that in WoW the rest of the game makes it tolerable, and in WAR and Champs, you just end up quitting.  Listen, I know WoW did questing and that was a big deal, and it was a big change from Everquest being able to quest to max level, but that alone doesn't make for a good leveling experience, or a good game.  I've said it before and I say it again though I realize a lot of people will say I'm probably just looking at the past through the lens of nostalgia, but as bad as "grinding" can be, at least you can choose what you want to kill and go where you want to go.   With the quest grind em ups lately, you may as well be playing a linear RPG instead of a game that ostensibly has this big open world to explore.

I think the key thing is that combat needs to be more interactive and fun. If combat was more like God of War or Streetfighter, people wouldn't mind just wandering around killing stuff and seeing things. The reason questing caught on in WoW was because the combat in EQ was so stale that WoW's "run five minutes, mash 123 five minutes, run five minutes" quest system was slightly less tedious.

[Goreschach]

as bad as "grinding" can be, at least you can choose what you want to kill and go where you want to go. 

Questing doesn't preclude you from doing this, any more than having viable solo rewards doesn't stop people from raiding.

In other words, it precludes it completely. People go where the easiet rewards are. If exploration only gives a quarter of the xp of questing, 99% of the players will spend 99% of their time questing. Exact same thing happened in War, with people complaining that everybody spent all their time in scenarios.

[Valmorian]

I liked the questing in WOW, it was a fun experience the few times I did it.  But I'm assuming that's not what you mean, and you really mean that WOW's mechanics overall were fun where the other games were not.

I think it really is all about the polish.  If you examine the quests in vanilla WoW, you'll find they ask you to do the most inane and boring things.  Kill X these, Kill till you get Y of those, ferry this thing to that person.  That's pretty much the extent of quests in WoW, or any MMO for that matter.  If you can fall under the illusion that what you are doing is fun, it's not so bad.  Once I started playing enough MMO's and began to see behind the curtain of quest objectives, however, they became horrendously tedious and boring.

[robusticus]

as bad as "grinding" can be, at least you can choose what you want to kill and go where you want to go. 

Questing doesn't preclude you from doing this, any more than having viable solo rewards doesn't stop people from raiding.

...If exploration only gives a quarter of the xp of questing, 99% of the players will spend 99% of their time questing....

See gaming 20 years ago wasn't like that.  You got your thrill from things like Locust vs Battlemaster and finally picking up the trail to the quest arc after exploring the entire map.  That's from memory.  What will people remember about WoW 20 years from now?  Dinging level 37?  Probably more like to be less about mechanics and more about the people you played with.  Which is cool but why can't we have good mechanics in a virtual world?  It must be too risky and hard and impossible.

[Sky]

In other words, it precludes it completely.

How dare people play the way they enjoy! Where's the accomplishment?

[Malakili]

In other words, it precludes it completely.

How dare people play the way they enjoy! Where's the accomplishment?

Yeah yeah, we keep saying this, and yet, I can't think of a single case in which an inefficient mode of play has been popular in an MMO because its more fun.  You can just write if off as "MMO players are just broken" or whatever, but its a legitimate issue.

[Mrbloodworth]

When your game is just a treadmill and sliding scale where everyone perceives "the game" starts at the end, sure.

[eldaec]

I don't understand why Mythic did not simply make DAOC v.2, and Cryptic did not make COH v.2 - instead we get Warhammer and Champs Online. 

I guess for the same reason UO v.2 never got made?

Which I still cannot fathom.

Cryptic did try to make CoH v2. They just did a mediocre job and only half committed to the action concept.

UO2 got made. It's called SWG. Plus another set of devs made Eve.

As for Mythic, yeah, don't know wtf was going on there.

[Kageru]

Criticizing WoW's very popular quest based progression puts some onus to come up with something better that is practical.

Superior quests with more interaction and better writing? You'd better have a massive budget behind you, and we'll see how well that works out for Bioware. Sure single player games are more interactive and adrenal but most of those are insanely short because that sort of content is expensive.

Exploring? You must be joking. Any middling popular MMO will have maps and content databases soon after launch. Getting drawn into a "hide the content" match with the players is just a losing proposition. There's a lot more of them! and if you succeed then you've got content so concealed and randomized only a small fraction of the player base ever experiences it. That's just not a good use of developer dollars.

[Teleku]

I really enjoyed WoW for exploration.  When I first played it, once I leveled up enough not to easily get one shotted, I spent days just running around the world, seeing what I could find.  I had a really good time, as WoW was the first game I played that had some very good atmosphere between the zones, and cool geography.  It also helped that it was a pre-existing world, so there was a lot of lore and history that was cool to see in the flesh (so to speak).  Of course, once you've checked everything out, you can't explore again, but that's kind of unavoidable.  I'm thinking about playing LOTRO for this same reason.  I've always been an explorer at heart in MMO's, so that one seems like it might be nice.  Anybody know if its worth it or not?

I liked questing in WoW.  I felt the quests (at least in vanilla) did a good job of moving you around the world and making you explore a bit.  There were plenty of quest givers whom you could only find if you were exploring to begin with.  Except for a few quests, I never felt like I was "grinding".  I don't think anybody has done a better job of making a fun MMO than Blizzard to date.

[Cyrrex]

I really enjoyed WoW for exploration.  When I first played it, once I leveled up enough not to easily get one shotted, I spent days just running around the world, seeing what I could find.  I had a really good time, as WoW was the first game I played that had some very good atmosphere between the zones, and cool geography.  It also helped that it was a pre-existing world, so there was a lot of lore and history that was cool to see in the flesh (so to speak).  Of course, once you've checked everything out, you can't explore again, but that's kind of unavoidable.  I'm thinking about playing LOTRO for this same reason.  I've always been an explorer at heart in MMO's, so that one seems like it might be nice.  Anybody know if its worth it or not?

Other than the fact that it is a nicely polished MMO (with all the good and bad that entails), the think LOTRO has going for it, for me, is the world itself.  Seeing their interpretation of Weathertop, the Barrows, the Shire, Tom Bombadil and the Great Willow,etc....all those things make for an interesting world and atmosphere.  If you really like exploration and cool geography, and have some sort of feelings for LOTR lore, then I think you should give it a try.  I think the game is better than WoW by a good margin simply because of the world.

[Nebu]

I like Lotro for its classes, housing, and character customization.  I also think the world is much prettier and more immersive.  Still, I can't get myself to stick with it due to the shitty core game play.  

[Cyrrex]

I like Lotro for its classes, housing, and character customization.  I also think the world is much prettier and more immersive.  Still, I can't get myself to stick with it due to the shitty core game play.  

It's still a typical MMO with all the same mechanics as can be expected.  Just a more polished than average version with a better world.

[Nebu]

It's still a typical MMO with all the same mechanics as can be expected.  Just a more polished than average version with a better world.

I agree.  I'm hoping that we'll get to see games in the future with persistence and character building that won't rely so heavily on the interface for core mechanics.  I want to watch my avatar do things and react to the behaviors of my enemy without having to constantly stare at bars, meters, and cooldowns. 

[Ollie]

Well, for what it's worth, giving LotRO a go has my vote. I've played on and off since launch, and the game's world design is easily up there with the best of them. There's lots to see and do for the explorer-minded player.

As Cyrrex pointed out, LotRO is still a Diku at heart, even though it does a pretty good job of hiding it at times. The combat is a bit of an opinion divider even after the Mirkwood revamp, but you'll quickly see if it turns you off or not. Some people don't like the lack of immediacy. It's nowhere near as muddy as it was at launch, though.

Go on, you know you want to. 

[Mrbloodworth]

I still say LOTRO has more going for it for all its side advancements than any other MMO out there. Really, combat isn't everything. I mean, did you know they almost have a complete farming game now? Game is wider than it is tall.

[Morat20]

I still say LOTRO has more going for it for all its side advancements than any other MMO out there. Really, combat isn't everything. I mean, did you know they almost have a complete farming game now? Game is wider than it is tall.

For some reason, that actually makes me want to play LOTRO. Maybe when I get a new computer. I tried a demo of it, and the hamsters powering my PC went on strike.

[Slyfeind]

as bad as "grinding" can be, at least you can choose what you want to kill and go where you want to go. 

Questing doesn't preclude you from doing this, any more than having viable solo rewards doesn't stop people from raiding.

In other words, it precludes it completely. People go where the easiet rewards are. If exploration only gives a quarter of the xp of questing, 99% of the players will spend 99% of their time questing. Exact same thing happened in War, with people complaining that everybody spent all their time in scenarios.

The fastest advancement back in vanilla WoW was avoiding quests and just grinding mobs. The travel times were huge time sinks, which is something Burning Crusade and WotLK improved on. But I know only a handful of people who just grinded mobs back then. Even now, dungeons are the path of least resistance, but people are still questing.

[Mrbloodworth]

I still say LOTRO has more going for it for all its side advancements than any other MMO out there. Really, combat isn't everything. I mean, did you know they almost have a complete farming game now? Game is wider than it is tall.

For some reason, that actually makes me want to play LOTRO. Maybe when I get a new computer. I tried a demo of it, and the hamsters powering my PC went on strike.

Its of course my personal experiences and evaluation, and I do think I am biased for that title, its still progress bars and what not, but its currently so expansive (like many other things) it breaks the barrier of "mini-game" for me, and by "mini-game" I mean in some circles it would hold its own.

If you ever see a level 6 hobbit asking for help killing a boar in the trollshaws, my point has been proven.

I also am trying to coin the phrase: Game is wider than it is tall. Because its my own personal design philosophy.

[01101010]

I also am trying to coin the phrase: Game is wider than it is tall. Because its my own personal design philosophy.

Better trademark that or it'll be fodder for Dmart. 

[Cyrrex]

Mrbloodworth - is wider than he is tall.

[Lightstalker]

I still say LOTRO has more going for it for all its side advancements than any other MMO out there. Really, combat isn't everything. I mean, did you know they almost have a complete farming game now? Game is wider than it is tall.

And it is no longer harder to get off your horse than it is to buy a house!

[Teleku]

Ah, cool, I'll give it a whirl then.  I don't care if its standard derivative combat (thats what I figured).  I just want an MMO that has a nice world to go explore, and this sounds like a good one (I'm a big lotr fan as well, so that should help).  Not really planning on playing longer than the first month.