Turbine Acquired

[UnSub]

From WB's point of view, I don't think they care that much about the MMO aspect - or, at least what Turbine have out right now. That Turbine is profitable helps WB, but that isn't what they were really looking for. They care more about the platform that Turbine offers them - they are increasingly looking to get into gaming and direct content distribution. Buying into Turbine gives them that quickly and it is all battle tested.

Also, the focus was on consoles, not the PC. That Turbine has a console MMO in production probably didn't hurt either.

[KallDrexx]

Gogo batman online!

[Mrbloodworth]

Yes, this is about the platform people, not any one game title. Turbine has been pimping the platform for a while now. Check the main turbine site, especially if for some idiotic reason you think the "engine sucks", because it doesn't, and two, the tools set is the key here. It is an extremely refined, extremely well tooled for content, platform all the way to distribution.

To many here confuse game layers for engine features, stop it.

[Sheepherder]

The only person talking about performance was Hyu.  And he apparently doesn't even know what UDP is.

[HaemishM]

Turbine has a mostly competent in-house engine that's been tuned, reused, and forged in the fires of MMOrdor, yes, but with one huge Achilles heel - server lag.

From rubber-banding in AC1 to feeling like you're underwater in LotRO, whatever magic it is that lets you hit an action key and have your character seem to do said action RIGHT THEN that pretty much every other MMO has, Turbines games lack. 

LotRO pretty much fixed that lately. It's not quite WoW responsive, but not nearly so bad as it was when the game was released.

Also, this means that Turbine has got some big legal muscle in their kerfluffle with Atari over DDO. Despite not liking DDO, the turnaround on LotRO has me convinced they should get the opportunity to do some non-fantasy properties as MMO's.

[Ingmar]

I don't think that 'slow' feeling is a result of the engine, its a game design thing. They like to time the game effects with their animations, and their animations are done more... deliberately, we'll call it, than say WoW's.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't think that 'slow' feeling is a result of the engine, its a game design thing. They like to time the game effects with their animations, and their animations are done more... deliberately, we'll call it, than say WoW's.

Basically. Yes. Not the same as "lag". In the recent update, the bandwidth traffic did not change at all.

[Arthur_Parker]

AC2 used the same engine and bow fire in beta was like using an Uzi.

[Mrbloodworth]

AC2 used the same engine and bow fire in beta was like using an Uzi.

Good point, and, quite technically, that was the old version of the engine. Again, game layer VS engine features, not the same thing. :)

[Tarami]

Good God, how many times have we been over this? :D

[Mrbloodworth]

Good God, how many times have we been over this? :D

Not enough?

[Nebu]

Good God, how many times have we been over this? :D

Eliminate the repeats and MMO discussion becomes 5 threads.

[Nija]

AC2 used the same engine and bow fire in beta was like using an Uzi.

Also remember that back then, they hosted the AC2 with Microsoft funds. When AC2 released I was on business fastpath DSL and I had a 15ms ping to Darktide. It was incredibly responsive and probably more twitch than any MMO I've ever played. Then again I was a run-casting cheater, but that's a different story.

[Ollie]

Turbine sets out to assuage fears over the acquisition on the LotRO forums: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=328831

Many of you have asked what this means for your game experience. The simple answer is that we don’t expect much to change for the foreseeable future. We remain committed to each of our games as we move forward. This change in corporate ownership is not expected to affect our current product portfolio.

Commendable optimism. Too bad "the foreseeable future" stretches only as far as a single quarter at most. It would be interesting to hear what assurances WB made concerning future investment in Turbine's current portfolio.

We’re looking forward to putting our newfound muscle behind your favorite games as we grow into our new role within the WB family of companies.

Having worked for big corporations in my time, I'm guessing adjusting to a new kind of operative infrastructure and culture takes its time. Going from an autonomous entity to a cog in a machine is bound to spring a few surprises.

[Stormwaltz]

AC2 used the same engine and bow fire in beta was like using an Uzi.

Neverwinter Nights, KotOR, Jade Empire, and The Witcher were all "the same engine."

Unreal 3, Lineage II, and Mass Effect were "the same engine."

An engine is not a game console with fixed hardware. It is a set of software development tools that evolve over time and between projects.

[UnSub]

Eliminate the repeats and MMO discussion becomes 5 threads.

 - Why MMOs suck
 - Why PvP sucks
 - Why PvE sucks
 - Why non-combat systems suck
 - Why the next unreleased MMO is going to be awesome and avoid every single mistake every other MMO has made

[Grimwell]

Turbine sets out to assuage fears over the acquisition on the LotRO forums: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=328831

Many of you have asked what this means for your game experience. The simple answer is that we don’t expect much to change for the foreseeable future. We remain committed to each of our games as we move forward. This change in corporate ownership is not expected to affect our current product portfolio.

Commendable optimism. Too bad "the foreseeable future" stretches only as far as a single quarter at most. It would be interesting to hear what assurances WB made concerning future investment in Turbine's current portfolio.

We’re looking forward to putting our newfound muscle behind your favorite games as we grow into our new role within the WB family of companies.

Having worked for big corporations in my time, I'm guessing adjusting to a new kind of operative infrastructure and culture takes its time. Going from an autonomous entity to a cog in a machine is bound to spring a few surprises.

I think that's a pretty fair and safe statement for them to make. Let's be honest, no matter what they say the next time the OCD hardcore don't like something that is done to LotRO (insert any live Turbine game here) the first thing they are going to do is blame WB and start to White Knight how Turbine would never have done this and is just having to serve the evil corporate master. Never you mind the reality behind it all.

They got bought, some changes are inevitable, but other changes were inevitable even without the WB factor. I think most of the impact and points of interest are in the future games of Turbine. What WB does with them going forward while milking ye old cows that currently exist.

[Ollie]

I think you and UnSub are more or less spot on. WB has IPs it wants to utilize, and acquiring Turbine nets them a proven developer/service provider with years of experience, and even a few current titles thrown in for good measure. Whatever on-line content WB has set its heart on, it now has the tools to deliver.

And Turbine's LotRO post, as you said, is the kind of non-committal, upbeat PR piece they're supposed to run. No surprises there. Overall, I'll admit to a vested interest in LotRO from a customer's perspective. I enjoy the game, and it would be sad to see it phased out too quickly in favour of new projects. Turbine isn't a mammoth as far as development staff goes, so any major reshuffling will have a sizeable impact on current titles – barring further investment in personnel, of course.

I was hoping to get a couple of more quality years out of LotRO, so if it turns out that WB is contractually obligated to invest in its development for a set period of time, I'd be pleased.

[Arthur_Parker]

AC2 used the same engine and bow fire in beta was like using an Uzi.

Neverwinter Nights, KotOR, Jade Empire, and The Witcher were all "the same engine."

Unreal 3, Lineage II, and Mass Effect were "the same engine."

An engine is not a game console with fixed hardware. It is a set of software development tools that evolve over time and between projects.

So we are in complete agreement that just because some people consider LOTRO combat slow, that doesn't mean Turbine is forced to make slow combat games.

[Stormwaltz]

So we are in complete agreement that just because some people consider LOTRO combat slow, that doesn't mean Turbine is forced to make slow combat games.

I see what you did there.

What I was trying to explain is that LotRO, while "the same engine" as AC2, may actually have significant differences under the hood. Speed/reactivity of combat may have been sacrificed to gain other features thought more important.

But hey, I don't work there. Go to the LotRO forums and ask the guys who can (theoretically) give you a straight answer.

[Mrbloodworth]

It was simply an animation issue/Choice AFAIK. (no I don't work there, but all explanations support it). Animation completion, and blends were extremely strict. Now you can let things over lap and even not blend all day long if you like (more like wow). True time of combat and/or net messages haven't changed.

[Lantyssa]

How is animation to blame for it feeling like there is a delay between hitting a key and the animation even starting?  A wind-up time is one thing, but my feel was always <buttonpress> <wait> <wait> <wait> <something starts to happen>

[KallDrexx]

It always seemed to me that Lotro's delay was caused by the way it queued actions and delayed those actions to correspond with auto attacks.  That's what I remember at least but i haven't played in a long time.

[Nija]

I seem to recall one of those design document/letter from the designer type things where he never liked where you could hit a button and it would interrupt whatever animations were currently happening and your character would jerkily start doing some new thing. They wanted to wait until the animations were completed so that the movements looked realistic and had a flow to them.

Which might be pleasing to the eye, but my Warden was a pain in the fucking ass to play.

[Mrbloodworth]

How is animation to blame for it feeling like there is a delay between hitting a key and the animation even starting?  A wind-up time is one thing, but my feel was always <buttonpress> <wait> <wait> <wait> <something starts to happen>

One animation will not fire until the previous was completed + Blend time.

Some animators prefer it, some do not care. On one side, you have fluid, complete, and smooth animations and transitions (transitions being procedural tweens of a sort), on the other you have a more responsive feedback, but animations frame time, and blends, as well as fluidity go right out the window. (see Nijas comment about jerkiness or twitching)

Now, I am not saying that some things in the back ground did not change, but I would not think turbine was inexperienced enough to attach mechanics to animation triggers (set frames in the animations time line) meaning, animations and mechanics are on different scheduled events, even if the match up.

It really all comes down to how things are implemented, as far as I know, the original combat speed (and by that I mean "feel") was completely intentional to the point that they made sure it reacted that way.

And that has nothing to do with the base engine, as DDO would be almost the direct opposite in feel. To sum up, its a game level design decision. More modern animations systems have really varied animation layering systems where procedural stuff (foot finds floor) and canned animations are blended/layerd and outputed so seamlessly its hard to tell by looking whats doing what. But turbines engine is (IMO) one of the best uses of "last gen" tech, but it comes with some real limitations or things to avoid.


EDIT: EHHH... That reads confusing, sorry. But I know you have seen it before.

[Arthur_Parker]

I see what you did there.

No, I really was just agreeing with you.  You made the point far better than I did, though you did use more words.

[Numtini]

I'm not sure how animation time affects the sluggish "stuck in the mud" feel of movement at game release, but that not the combat sluggishness was my biggest complaint. Moving was like driving my uncle's huge Lincoln with squishy steering.

That's gone now btw. I found the game pretty decent last I played in January.

[SurfD]

I'm not sure how animation time affects the sluggish "stuck in the mud" feel of movement at game release, but that not the combat sluggishness was my biggest complaint. Moving was like driving my uncle's huge Lincoln with squishy steering.

That's gone now btw. I found the game pretty decent last I played in January.

Could be one of those "optical illusion, image mindfucking perception of reality" things.   Kind of like in WoW, how everyone who has ever played a Gnome thinks that all other characters run slower, just because of the change in the way the character animates while running (Tiny Gnome appears to run REALLY fast to cover the same distance a normal model covers with less animation steps)

[Soln]

I wonder if they got rid of Conjunctions (EQ2 style "heroic opportunities") if that would free them from another requirement to keep combat slow (if keeping combat slow had some design intent).  You need that 1-2.5 secs to have the wheel draw on your PC and then find the correct group button to push.