Cataclysm Class Changes

[Arinon]

I'm all for punishing DPS for over-extending themselves.  That used to be called threat.

I'd expect a couple of deep arcane talents will give that spec another one or two ways to get fast mana.  They already have gems and evocation no?  It'll just be a different style that involves riding some optimal mana pool percentage instead of just asking them to mash buttons until the blue is all gone.

[Nevermore]

Blizzard can call it a bonus to damage with high mana until their blue in the face, but players will always view it as a nerf to damage the lower their mana gets.  Anyone who knows about Blasters from CoH will know how much they hated having scaling damage, even though it was always supposed to be a bonus on top of their normal damage.  I think the mechanic sounds interesting but I think it will end up being unpopular.  On another note, as a Frost Mage I really like the arcane missile proc thing.

[Fordel]

Actually no, framing the mechanic does in fact change player reaction.


IE: The Rest System.


The Rest system used to 'penalize' you, only gaining '50%' XP when not rested. Everyone hated it, worst thing ever.

Blizzard just changed the wording and to a 'bonus' when fully rested and voila best mechanic ever.

[Typhon]

This system is not satisfying because you get weaker as you go (without finding a way to boost your mana back up).  It's counter to a "satisfying" mechanism where you are doing things to build to a point where the big numbers fly.  The rogue's point system is satisfying for just this reason.

Similarly, the DKs system is satisfying because you are building runepower, so again, your capacity to kick ass is ramping up the more combat you do.

The arcane mage is at his peak sitting on his ass.  STUPID system.  Even if they partition it into thirds (an example), it's slightly less annoying, but it's still not satisfying because the stuff I want to do (cast spells) is going to make me weaker once I let my mana drop below 66%.  Given that they are trying to add systems that are MORE fun then the currect system, this seems like a step back.

The only way I can see this being fun is if certain attacks/actions actually increase your mana pool, and other attacks/actions boost you mana regen (or just straight up mana) - so you are working to get yourself to a point where you have, as an example, 150% of your rest mana capacity and full mana.  Now THAT is exciting.

[ajax34i]

Well, the warlock playstyle is about building up and ramping up the damage, and the mage seems to be about one big burst of violence in the beginning, and hopefully the target dies before the mage is spent.  So, maybe they're just trying to promote that further with this mechanic.  Maybe it's their "vision".

[Ingmar]

Hidden in a GC post not in one of the big threads: rebirth is going back to a 30 min cooldown.

[Lantyssa]

What!?  That's a stupid change if true.

[Ingmar]

Sounds like it is deliberate to make druids less Must Have for raids.

[Selby]

I don't know... I like having it on 10m cooldown, but having 3 druids in a 10 man raid and people doing stupid shit to get themselves killed sure makes me wish there was a way to punish them harder for it.  Not sure a 30 minute cooldown is the way to accomplish that though.

[Fordel]

It only went to 10 minutes because of how they implemented the attempt limits on the heroic mode for raids in ICC.

[Nevermore]

Hidden in the answer to a question about Fan of Knives:

Now, having said all that, we suspect you will AE less often in Cataclysm. You'll CC more and you'll burn targets down one at a time more often. But that just means all classes will do less damge with AEs.

So less AoE, more CC and more single target burning down.

[SurfD]

I don't know... I like having it on 10m cooldown, but having 3 druids in a 10 man raid and people doing stupid shit to get themselves killed sure makes me wish there was a way to punish them harder for it.  Not sure a 30 minute cooldown is the way to accomplish that though.

Depends on how things balance out with their new focus on bigger health pools for all + changed healing mechanics.   The 10 minute rebirth was largely in response (at least in my mind) to how freaking easy it was to accidently get instagibbed if someone made one tiny mistake.  The current raid environment where anyone not topped back to full health within 2 or 3 seconds is liable to get roasted makes lower cooldowns on things like Battle rez very handy.

personally, i think having it at 30 (or 20) minutes, with a resto talent to bring it down to 15 (or 10) or something like that would probably be perfect.

[Ingmar]

I doubt resto will have a talent to reduce the cooldown, personally. It seems clear that their goal with healers this expansion is to make them a little more even across the board in terms of covering different roles - everyone can tank heal, everyone can raid heal (though the way paladins will do that we don't know yet). If they do that, suddenly things like battle rez become disproportionately important when you're picking which healers to bring on a raid. If they de-emphasize it by re-raising the cooldown to the point where you just won't have it available every fight, that keeps the playing field for healers more level than it would otherwise be.

[Typhon]

They aren't making the tough decision - either it's an ability they acknowledge as being something they want player's to have, and they give it to other classes to remove the "special snowflake" appeal of the druid (for what it's worth, my main is a druid), or admit that it's something that makes it too hard to balance the level of difficult of raids and remove or alter it.

Change it to "reincarnate" and have the player spawn as a random tank/healer/dps (similar, but better different than the DKs reanimate ability).  Maybe give the warlock something similar that involves bringing back a ranged dps.  Who uses their ability depends on the nature of the encounter.  Lol, for something I just pulled out of my ass, I like the way that sounds.

Maybe change the druid's to not be random, but have it bring the player back as a healing tree.  Make the ghoul a bit tougher, give it some tanking ability (like, say, an OT).  Now you have the choice of having a tank/ranged dps or healer.  Druid's is still technically the best because the druid could start dpsing (albeit poorly), while the tree shifted to healing.

[Soulflame]

Hidden in the answer to a question about Fan of Knives:

Now, having said all that, we suspect you will AE less often in Cataclysm. You'll CC more and you'll burn targets down one at a time more often. But that just means all classes will do less damge with AEs.

So less AoE, more CC and more single target burning down.

"LF MAGE TO RUN HEROIC, PST"

Because that was so much fun in BC, watching a number of classes sit on the sidelines because they had no reliable CC.

[Shrike]

Hidden in the answer to a question about Fan of Knives:

Now, having said all that, we suspect you will AE less often in Cataclysm. You'll CC more and you'll burn targets down one at a time more often. But that just means all classes will do less damge with AEs.

So less AoE, more CC and more single target burning down.

Whoa, I might be able to use hex now? And get away from that friggin' fire totem/fire nova crap? Count me in.

I still believe they'll screw enhance up seriously (previous experience and all that), but I am pretty tired of the AoE crap. It's so awkward on this subclass that's it not even mildly amusing. Better still, keep trash to a minimum and give us more sub-boss encounters.

[Lantyssa]

I'm forgetting that Druids have an out-of-combat rez now, too.  Still, I don't like any design which has any ability with a recharge longer than a few minutes.

If a group is dying enough that they need the shorter cooldown, then take some pity on them and let them have it.  At 30 minutes it becomes a "do I really want to use this?" power which never gets used.

[Rendakor]

Lantyssa, the problem was actually the opposite effect. "Fuck, we used Brez on that attempt. Everyone fuck off for 25m until it's back up."

[Sheepherder]

Give it to more classes in some form, make it incur a weak resurrection sickness that wears off if you leave combat for 30 seconds, or incur a hour+ long Weakened Soul type effect.

[Rendakor]

The problem with giving it a debuff + short CD (+ giving to more classes) is that you would still have battle rezzes going off like crazy, except each person could only get one. It would have to apply a raid-wide debuff or else death in a raid situation would be trivial. People would only get out of fire after they received their one brez.

[Sheepherder]

Except that is not the case due to buffs dropping.

[Lantyssa]

Lantyssa, the problem was actually the opposite effect. "Fuck, we used Brez on that attempt. Everyone fuck off for 25m until it's back up."

Either way the result hurts enjoyment of the game.  It's not like using it kills a kitten, so I'm not sure what experience it's supposed to improve.

[Merusk]

The size of leet raiders' e-peens.

[Ingmar]

Lantyssa, the problem was actually the opposite effect. "Fuck, we used Brez on that attempt. Everyone fuck off for 25m until it's back up."

Either way the result hurts enjoyment of the game.  It's not like using it kills a kitten, so I'm not sure what experience it's supposed to improve.

At 30 minute cooldown with the healing/mana changes in Cataclysm it becomes a 'nice to have' feature rather than something you make your raid sit there for a while to wait for it to recharge before you try the fight again. Especially if the limited attempts mechanic is gone.

I mean yeah it will probably hurt *our* raids because we always have druids disproportionately over-represented (and also a tendency to die unnecessarily), but I think from a design standpoint it makes sense to de-emphasize it with the other changes that are coming.

[Sjofn]

Hidden in the answer to a question about Fan of Knives:

Now, having said all that, we suspect you will AE less often in Cataclysm. You'll CC more and you'll burn targets down one at a time more often. But that just means all classes will do less damge with AEs.

So less AoE, more CC and more single target burning down.

"LF MAGE TO RUN HEROIC, PST"

Because that was so much fun in BC, watching a number of classes sit on the sidelines because they had no reliable CC.

Most classes that had to sit in BC because of that now have reliable CC. No one would know this without playing those classes, of course, because no one CC'd in WotLK.

[Merusk]

Everyone will still prefer Mage cc for the same reason they did in BC.  Instantly Recastable, totally predictable and always available.

[Selby]

About time mages became useful for something again.  I swear I am one of 2 mages in my entire guild and I rarely ever see them anywhere on the raiding scene or PVP scene.

[Ingmar]

Everyone will still prefer Mage cc for the same reason they did in BC.  Instantly Recastable, totally predictable and always available.

Assuming they vary enemy types enough this should be OK. Really I think the biggest potential issue is that elementals are likely to be pretty common in Cataclysm content and right now I think only warlocks have a CC spell that deals with them cleanly.

About time mages became useful for something again.  I swear I am one of 2 mages in my entire guild and I rarely ever see them anywhere on the raiding scene or PVP scene.

Mages are really desirable dps from where I'm sitting - easy rotation, high damage, and there are fights in ICC (in all content really) that absolutely demand good ranged dps. I don't see them as unuseful at all.

[Sjofn]

Everyone will still prefer Mage cc for the same reason they did in BC.  Instantly Recastable, totally predictable and always available.

"Prefer" is vastly different from "absolutely need."

[Fordel]

Until you need to sheep some undead at least. 

[Sheepherder]

About time mages became useful for something again.  I swear I am one of 2 mages in my entire guild and I rarely ever see them anywhere on the raiding scene or PVP scene.

Mages are possibly the most highly desired DPS class in raids due to high threat control, manageable mana, and ridiculous ability to burn shit down during Heroism/Bloodlust.

[Fordel]

Frost Mages are kinda sorta popular for the PeeVeePee as well. 

[Selby]

Mages are possibly the most highly desired DPS class in raids due to high threat control, manageable mana, and ridiculous ability to burn shit down during Heroism/Bloodlust.

You know, you guys say that but my server has next to none of them on.  Doesn't bother me too much, not as much gear competition.  And my mage can push ridiculous numbers, so I know all about it ;-)  I PVP as frost as well, and that's not too horrible either.

That said, I get into a PUG, a guild raid, etc.  There may be a mage, but most likely there isn't.  If it isn't my mage in a 10-m, there isn't likely to be one.  And our 25-m has me and one other person.  It's all hunters and warlocks for ranged with the occasional boomkin.

[Rendakor]

Our server is all Hunters and Mages. Locks are so rare that ToC25 PUGs will take pretty much any 80 lock for CC on Faction Champs; Oomkins have it about as easy for Saurfang in ICC25. It's actually difficult to form VoA10 on my server without doubling up on mages or hunters.

[Mattemeo]

Until you need to sheep some undead at least. 

It's here I'd like to point out that my Shadow Priest never had cause to use Cage Undead (or whatever the hell it's called) till the guild started pottering about in ICC 10. It was a dead ability till then. I can't say I like the idea that my already nerfed AE attack is going to become even less useful, but at least another of my abilities will get more of an outing perhaps.

Now, if they could turn Mind Vision into some sort of Final Fantasy 'Libra' spell where casting it on a boss alerts you to potential weaknesses/strategy...