Cataclysm Class Changes

[Wolf]

There's no spot in ICC where you should be using shackle undead, like ever. Don't let anyone tell you different :)

MIND SEER.

Of if you feel frisky and want to own some unholy DK's ass - tab VT and Mind Sear :)

[Dren]

There's no spot in ICC where you should be using shackle undead, like ever. Don't let anyone tell you different :)

Trash leading to princes.  Makes them quick and trivial.  It is the only place we use it.

[Wolf]

Focus down lich, aoe the rest. That's how we do it, never had a problem. And our tanks like to do some crazy pulls out of boredom :)

[AutomaticZen]

Everyone will still prefer Mage cc for the same reason they did in BC.  Instantly Recastable, totally predictable and always available.

Shaman can Hex now.  So... two classes maybe?

Man, I'm glad.  I remember first running Magisters Terrace.  It took time.  You had to mark, plan, CC, and execute.  Or they monkeystomped you.  Good times.

These days I mark my target, grab the rest and taunt as needed.

[Lantyssa]

Focus down lich, aoe the rest. That's how we do it, never had a problem. And our tanks like to do some crazy pulls out of boredom :)

Our tank can't even hold aggro in Violet Hold.

[Rendakor]

Everyone will still prefer Mage cc for the same reason they did in BC.  Instantly Recastable, totally predictable and always available.

Shaman can Hex now.  So... two classes maybe?

Man, I'm glad.  I remember first running Magisters Terrace.  It took time.  You had to mark, plan, CC, and execute.  Or they monkeystomped you.  Good times.

These days I mark my target, grab the rest and taunt as needed.

They're removing the recast time on Hex? Did I miss that?

[Arinon]

It looks like they want to try to make even five man groups have a complete suite of abilities and buffs that they can count on and balance around.  I just hope to hell that means the heroics are heroic ala BC and not the snooze-fest they have been in LK.  I wanna see people sapping, fear chaining, frost nova-ing, mind controlling, trapping, entangling, and all that other stuff that's been dead with this expanion being required.  With the level cap only going up by five I see no reason to spend time balancing any new dungeons for sub-85 activity.

[caladein]

Heroics in BC where hideous for many reasons, first of which was the trash being significantly harder than the bosses.

That said, it seems really silly to have this great system that throws together a tank, a healer, and three damage dealers and then make it obsolete because of very-specific CC needs.

[ezrast]

Trash is harder than bosses in current dungeons, although I can't remember if that was the case before the rain of purples.

[K9]

There are some bosses more perilous than their trash, but generally wiping on trash is not something unique to TBC. Of the four hardest heroics only two really had trash harder than the bosses (Shadow Labs and Shattered Halls). Heroic Magister's Terrace and Arcatraz had the most challenging boss fights of any heroic in the game (appropriate for their level). They also had very hard trash, but they were a complete package. In the case of Arcatraz, a lot of the trash wasn't in big packs, and CC wouldn't make or break your ability to get through the instance.

[Zetor]

While we're reminiscing about BC heroics, I have to add an obligatory fuck-you to all boglord type mobs that 1-shot undergeared tanks like nothing (steamvault, double giant pull in underbog) and the first boss of heroic crypts which was a middle finger to healers with no instacast heals.

(otoh, h-kael was easy as heck to heal as a resto shaman.. keep in mind this was before riptide)

[Soulflame]

Just to underscore a point:  The guild I was in during BC would not do over half of the BC heroics.  This is not a good model for Blizzard to try to return to.

Also, expecting random lfg to survive more demanding heroics is unreasonable.  The only reason the dungeon finder works now is because almost anything can saunter through heroics, and even that is partly due to overgearing.  Wrath heroics were not significantly easy on release, although they were easier than most BC heroics for sure.

I expect that if Blizzard does create content that requires significant teamwork, CC, and skill, that they'll nerf the absolute bejesus out of it in short order.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Bullshit.  People go where the purples are, the new icc 5mans are proof that people will do harder dungeons if the reward is in place.

[Merusk]

Until they have what they want, then they won't run them again.  So be early and one of the first or have a lot of friends who are willing to do shit they don't want to do.

Like it happened in BC. 

[Malakili]

Bullshit.  People go where the purples are, the new icc 5mans are proof that people will do harder dungeons if the reward is in place.

The new ICC 5mans are cake compared to the BC heroics.  Pull it all together and AoE it down.  There were some heroics in BC that were absolutely not worth doing when you were at the "appropriate" gear level for them because they were nowhere near worth their reward.  Shattered Halls comes to mind, Arcatraz and oh god the horrible memories of Shadow Labs.   Sure, months later when you out geared the places (and they were nerfed) they were a breeze, and then people would run them for badges, but people generally struggled through them a single time for attunements and then ignored them.

[caladein]

People avoided the bulk of the BC heroics because the drops, reputation rewards, and badges were all rubbish for the effort involved.  Instead, they just farmed Karazahn every week until they had no need for T6-level gear.

Now, no one does Naxxramas except for the Raid Weekly and they just run Random Heroics instead.

[Lakov_Sanite]

People avoided the bulk of the BC heroics because the drops, reputation rewards, and badges were all rubbish for the effort involved.  Instead, they just farmed Karazahn every week until they had no need for T6-level gear.

Now, no one does Naxxramas except for the Raid Weekly and they just run Random Heroics instead.

This.

If the rewards were worth it, people wouldn't have minded the difficulty.

[Shrike]

People avoided the bulk of the BC heroics because the drops, reputation rewards, and badges were all rubbish for the effort involved.  Instead, they just farmed Karazahn every week until they had no need for T6-level gear.

Now, no one does Naxxramas except for the Raid Weekly and they just run Random Heroics instead.

+1

Also, if they'd even deign to take you. Ask any dps warrior or enhancement shaman about that. No desire to see that crap again.

[Wolf]

It looks like they want to try to make even five man groups have a complete suite of abilities and buffs that they can count on and balance around.  I just hope to hell that means the heroics are heroic ala BC and not the snooze-fest they have been in LK.  I wanna see people sapping, fear chaining, frost nova-ing, mind controlling, trapping, entangling, and all that other stuff that's been dead with this expanion being required.  With the level cap only going up by five I see no reason to spend time balancing any new dungeons for sub-85 activity.

I skipped TBC, so not entirely sure how hard the dungeons were. But I don't mind, as long as they don't make me go back over and over again. Than again, they've said they're not happy with how badge gear worked out and will be looking at different systems for cata

[Sjofn]

While we're reminiscing about BC heroics, I have to add an obligatory fuck-you to all boglord type mobs that 1-shot undergeared tanks like nothing (steamvault, double giant pull in underbog) and the first boss of heroic crypts which was a middle finger to healers with no instacast heals.

I never, ever, ever finished Crypts on heroic. I was a paladin healer at the time, and I could not say FUCK YOU to that instance loud enough. On the other hand, I actually really enjoyed healing Kael'thas in MrT on my paladin. It was challenging but weirdly fun. The other paladin healer in the guild (she stuck with it while I rejected the fuck out of it in WotLK) hated him like crazy though.

[El Gallo]

Waiting for fury warriors to get a mez like rets did!

[AutomaticZen]

If the rewards were worth it, people wouldn't have minded the difficulty.

Indeed.  And Magister's Terrace was awesome.

Marking, Crowd Control, and Line of Sight.  These are lost arts currently.  I wish for them back.  I want the DPS to actually have to pay some attention.

[Shrike]

Can't pay attention when you never see the inside of the place.

Hell, I never saw MT until I was 80. You couldn't buy a group with Thai gold back in TBC as enhance. More to the point, I don't trust Blizzard enough not to fuck up shaman--enhance in particular--again to the point no one will have you in groups. We're already there--again--in heroic raid raid content. The CC travesty in TBC was simply another illustration of this.

So, no, I don't have fluffy warm memories of MT runs or the epic level of CC skill displayed by mages or whothehellever in TBC heroics, since I saw a grand total of two in two years.

[Soulflame]

Auchindoun heroics were hateful.  All of them.
Labs had horrific trash, including those goddamn healer gibbing stealthers, and bosses that had harder mechanics than most of Wrath's raid bosses.

Crypts had trash that would MC your tank.  Plus, IIRC, the bridge of DOOM.

The other one had hateful trash as well.

I never completed Shattered Halls.  Neither the heroic or non-heroic version.  No one would run it.

Furnace had healer gibbing stealthers, and tank gibbing mobs that damn near required a warlock.

Ramparts had a few annoying pulls, but wasn't horrific.

None of the Zangarmarsh heroics were as bad as Auchindoun, but they each had hateful things.

Vaults had way too much trash.  Plus bog lords.

Pens had way too much trash.  Plus the jump of "let's save time!"  Except you always had that one guy that couldn't make that jump.

The other one had lots of bog lords.  Plus mushroom boss.

CoT heroics were absolutely asinine.
Durnholde had that ridiculous trash gauntlet that Thrall would run through as fast as possible.

BM had the same mechanic as VH, except harder.

Crystal spaceship heroics
Mechanar was more difficult than any Wrath heroic, but since it was one of the easiest BC heroics, everyone ran it.  Even so, it had tank gibbing robots, grenade throwing trash, mechanics on all bosses that rivaled most Wrath raid bosses.  First boss had the +/- charges.  Second boss was FIRE BITCH, where you'd have elementals that pulsed an AE, plus left a trail of fire, not to mention any non-tank getting caught in the blast of the boss would probably die.  Then there was the gauntlet of DOOM, followed by a boss that would summon adds and mind control.

I don't recall completing Arcatraz, because no one would run it.

I think we ran Botanica a couple times, but only because we had to for something or another.  Otherwise we completely avoided it.

I saw a lot of Magister's, but hated healing it because, you know, holy paladin.  KT in particular was awesome, I generally could not keep the entire group alive.

So yeah.  If Blizzard goes back to the awesome of BC heroics, I won't bother.  I hated them, because they were overly difficult.  Having said that, it should be hilarious reading complaints about trying to run a heroic where you must focus fire one particular mob, or the tank gets MCed, which automatically results in a wipe.  Keep in mind, that's a TRASH PACK mechanic.  The bosses were WORSE.

[Rasix]

If Blizzard goes back to the awesome of BC heroics, I won't bother.  

This.

And honestly, if they go back to loot distribution pre ICC5, I'm not going to last long either.  I don't want to wait until the last round of heroics to finally get some fucking weapon upgrades.  I don't care about the purple rain, I just don't want to get stuck carrying around a lolsteel weapon for months.  

Of course, I can say these things because I'm in a WoW lull at the moment (not even going to bother logging in for the holiday achievement).  Once I'm in full pre-post xpac froth, who knows what bullshit I'll put up with.

[AutomaticZen]

Can't pay attention when you never see the inside of the place.

Hell, I never saw MT until I was 80. You couldn't buy a group with Thai gold back in TBC as enhance. More to the point, I don't trust Blizzard enough not to fuck up shaman--enhance in particular--again to the point no one will have you in groups. We're already there--again--in heroic raid raid content. The CC travesty in TBC was simply another illustration of this.

So, no, I don't have fluffy warm memories of MT runs or the epic level of CC skill displayed by mages or whothehellever in TBC heroics, since I saw a grand total of two in two years.

As someone who's first main was an Enhance Shaman, that pretty much just a problem with enhance shaman.  Short of making a heroic a god faceroll, it'll always be a problem until they fix the class.

I'm just tired of an entire expansion of heroics wherein you just faceroll AOE the entire thing.  You literally don't have to do anything.  Pick a direction, grab the mobs, Aoe them all down, and once you're down to one or two mobs, move forward some more and grab some more mobs.  For the whole thing.  The only standouts of any sort of difficulty were Trial in the beginning, and Halls of Reflection.  Who cares about sheeping, stunning, or any other utility abilities these days?

[Nonentity]

Updated second post with paladin changes.

[koro]

Whenever I shackle the Hunter mobs in heroic HoR on my Priest, I invariably get tells asking me what the fuck that was I just did because they've never seen it done before.

Also invariably, the tank tells me to stop doing it because he has to - oh no - run out of his little corner to get the last mob that I prevented from stunning me for an age.

[Soulflame]

I don't even know what to say to the paladin changes, other than "Not interested.  Back to the drawing board with you!"

[Arinon]

I'm hitting a WoW lull myself now and the main reason is that once you've run into current 10 and 25 man content there is nothing fun or worth doing in a 5 man.  I'd like to see heroic 5 mans on the same tier as the entry level 10 mans the way ICC10 Hardmode is to ICC25 now.  More demanding for each person but way less logistics involved getting something together.  They should have the normal version of the 5 mans occupying the same role that current heroics do rather then something you run once while leveling to get a couple of blue quest rewards.

In other news the Pally update has this in it which came as a surprise to me:

Having said that, Retribution does pretty well in Battlegrounds, and Battlegrounds will be a much bigger focus in Cataclysm since they can provide the best PvP rewards.

AV your way to top tier PvP weapons?

[Soulflame]

I'd like to be able to upgrade my libram once or twice an expansion.  As it is, the odds are that the libram I have right now will still be BiS, particularly if mana is as much a concern as Blizzard is hoping to make it.

[Sjofn]

I laughed at the veiled "STOP FACE ROLLING" comments on making the ret and prot rotations harder. Excuse me, I meant more interesting.

I don't ... hate what they are tinkering with on holy paladins. I'd really have to see it all in action. I find the "healing stream paladin" heal the most wtf thing on the list though.

[Rendakor]

Well, Paladins are now off the short list of classes that didn't have some form of pet.

[Sjofn]

I saw a lot of Magister's, but hated healing it because, you know, holy paladin.  KT in particular was awesome, I generally could not keep the entire group alive.

See, I had the opposite feeling towards Magister's. I don't know why, but for some reason the "hahahaha, keep moving, bitch!" mechanic in that instance ALONE (and none of the others) did not bother me as a holy paladin. As long as the other people in my group weren't complete idiots (and I was very picky about who I would MrT with), I could keep everyone alive fine, and I enjoyed the balance of movement versus healing challenge. And if I WAS doing it with idiots, well, I'd let the idiots die and not feel even remotely bad about it.

I'm a bad person. :(

[Soulflame]

Healing MrT was challenging, which made it more interesting than just about anything else I had access to (aside from ZA.)

Still.  Keeping people alive on KT was very demanding.  I could do it, but if someone screwed up, there was a fair chance I could not save them, and keep everyone else alive as well.  I hate letting people die.