The Pacific

[Murgos]

For this series Chesty's wiki page should probably be required reading.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller

Also, on the Navy Crosses, Chesty was put in for Medal of Honor awards on some of those but inter-service politics kept them from being awarded.  

[Slayerik]

On one hand, thanks for spoiler tagging everything because I haven't seen the first episode yet.  On the other hand, WTF.  This is "The Pacific" thread.  The last 8 fucking posts are nothing but a spoiler tags.  Shouldn't this be the thread where its ok to talk about whats going on in the series?

Fair enough.

But I'd rather just spoiler it and make a fucker click. If it is something general like "this show is amazing! I got HBO to see it. blah blah blah then ok."
But if you talk about certain things I think it can hurt someone's immersion that hasn't seen it before. Maybe the stuff above ended up not being so spoiler worthy, but I think my original one was :)

[Slayerik]

Also tgr, about your shooting, I'm assuming to get 94/100 with a glock 9mm at 50m (I'm calling bullshit basically) you had some type of optics and a bench. At 50 ft, I'd believe it. ;)

[tgr]

Also tgr, about your shooting, I'm assuming to get 94/100 with a glock 9mm at 50m (I'm calling bullshit basically) you had some type of optics and a bench. At 50 ft, I'd believe it. ;)

This was quite a few years ago, but I'm probably wrong on the distance, chances are that it was 25m. But it was without optics or a bench to lean against (I take it that's what you meant?).

Of course, we're not talking about tiny targets you might find in some Serious Business competition, we were talking about man-sized targets, where 10 was the center of the chest-area. I think that area was about 15-20cm or so in diameter, with the 9 point radius a 5-10cm layer outside of that etc.

I just remember being well chuffed with that score, since I basically just shot once a year.

As for the distance he took the shot at, I expect that to be around that distance, and I believe soldiers should receive a fair bit of training beforehand, so I don't think of that shot as that unlikely. Not an easy shot, to be sure, but not unlikely.

[Murgos]

To qualify at the lowest level that passes you have to hit at least 60% at 25m with a 9mm, unsupported and with iron sights (Marines).

[Musashi]

It's not like he hit him between the eyes or something retarded.

[Slayerik]

Ok, ok....sorry for even bringing it up. It is just a pet peeve of mine when movies/TV shows show a pistol as an accurate, one-shot weapon. In general, they are only accurate at close range. I'll have to check out the recording for my own distance calculations :)

[Nebu]

Ok, ok....sorry for even bringing it up. It is just a pet peeve of mine when movies/TV shows show a pistol as an accurate, one-shot weapon.

I bet you love westerns! 

[bhodi]

Let's not forget how different actual combat is versus a range. "Nothing but misses past 10 feet" is a very common and known phenomenon, at least with police.



Edit: true, true. Still, it's not like they are battle-hardened veterans.

[tgr]

Technically that wasn't really combat anymore, so I'm not sure this rule really applies.

Having said that, my initial thought when I saw that scene was "why? stop shooting, he's surrendered, damn you". I'm pretty sure that was 100% intentional to prepare us for what's to come in the next episode.

[Slayerik]

Technically that wasn't really combat anymore, so I'm not sure this rule really applies.

Having said that, my initial thought when I saw that scene was "why? stop shooting, he's surrendered, damn you". I'm pretty sure that was 100% intentional to prepare us for what's to come in the next episode.

My first thought was "Wow these guys can't hit shit!" , then realized it turned into a sick game. I guess that is something I would expect more later in the war, after more hatred has built up against them. But I guess a maimed Jap 'nading some of your buddies might do the trick.

This is me, never having been in the shit.

[Musashi]

They're not battle hardened veterans.  But they are Marines.  All they do is march, low-crawl, and shoot.  It wasn't combat.  He had time to take careful aim, and he did.  It may not be a shot you can reliably make at that distance, I'll give you.  But it's a TV show.  He maybe had a 20% chance in reality.  Can't we just give him a lucky shot?

The Japanese soldiers weren't surrendering.  They were making a suicide charge.  When he's beating his chest, he's looks like he's demanding they kill him.  I'd actually be curious to find out what he says there, when they're fucking with him.  I can't quite make it out.

The Marines feel like they got the short end of the stick, remember.  They got enough mileage out of the fact that they get to island hop into malaria infested jungles to fight the 'monkey men' instead of the glorious destruction of Hitler.  They're not toying with this guy out of hatred.  They don't think enough of them to hate them yet.  They're toying with him out of good old American racism.

[Teleku]

Ok, this was a good episode.  I thought the first episode was ok, but I was a bit hesitant for it.  Coming from Band of Brothers, I felt that I wasn't bonded with all the main characters enough, or that there wasn't enough characters for me to bond to.  The whole espirit de corps thing didn't feel properly introduced like in BoB.  It sort of jumped into the middle of things without much ado.  But now seeing this episode, I'm seeing how the pacing works.  Even as I posted before, this is a different war, and much more chaotic.  Band of Brothers was about strategic platoon level action, taking towns and objectives.  This is about a bunch of guys dropped into a hot disease infested shithole, with old shitty equipment, shooting random people in the dark/bush's.  No front lines.  They killed a main character off camera.  No dramatic death sequence.  Just found him face down shot to death in the jungle after a night of fighting. 

They're already doing a good job of hammering in how under supplied, dirty, and desperate the marines are, and it will only get worst from here.  It'll help tie in with the brutality that starts to happen (Guadacanal was kind of a cakewalk compared to what came later, really), as they get put through more and more shit, dealing with an enemy that doesn't give up.

So yeah, after an unsure start, I'm sold on this.  Great episode.  Thoughts?

[Tannhauser]

I'm with you. First ep was not so great, but this one had a lot more action in it and made me care more about the marines.  I do wonder why they aren't showing any .50 cal machine guns, I know the marines had them there.  Minor quibble to be sure..

Leckie really grew on me this time, hell they all did.  Basilone is 

[Slayerik]

Hell of an episode. I was pleasantly surprised by the humor in this one, and definitely started connecting with the guys more. "Runner" and "Peaches" ;)

I think they are doing a great job or bringing the differences. 2nd episode of BoB involved the paratroopers landing, being surrounded by enemy and taking on small fixed position as a squad.

The 2nd episode of Pacific involves being stuck, without supply lines, against hundreds to thousands of Japanese assaulting them. It took Easy company til Carintan (totally fuckin up the spelling) to be bombarded and as fucked as the Marines are already. Then again, that's comparing the action of an Army paratrooper company to that of Marine division. Kinda apples and oranges.

I need to do more reading, but does this generally follow how the war was for the Marines? Fuckin' meatgrinder.

Also, I hope they get into Naval battles a bit more, but that would be asking a lot I guess.

Fuck, 6 days to go.

[Nebu]

I'm still not getting sucked in.  I think it's in part because some of the acting isn't great.  I see where they are coming from in the way that they are trying to portray the situation in the early Pacific battles, but it just isn't drawing me in like BoB did.  I have a feeling that I'll appreciate it more the second or third time I watch the series. 

Having said that, I'm still going to camp in front of my tv on Sunday nights.   

[sickrubik]

Hell of an episode. I was pleasantly surprised by the humor in this one, and definitely started connecting with the guys more. "Runner" and "Peaches" ;)

*adjusts glasses* Umm, actually, the nicknames were "Peaches" and "Ol' Faithful".

I wasn't a detracted to the first episode, though it did seem a it rushed, with having to put some "real world" context to these guys and then get them into action in the first hour, but the second episode felt a lot better and showed a bit more of these guys. I had wikipedia during the episode reading up on stuff while we watched. The fiancee surprisingly was really into it too, and wants to watch Band of Brothers now.

[Slayerik]

Yeah someone else corrected me at work, I was a little drunk last night...Not sure where I heard Runner and had it stick, unless it is actually his last name or something. :)

[Abagadro]

His nick is Runner but as Peaches is puking he says he is going to change it to Old Faithful.

[Musashi]

Basilone is 

When Chesty says he's going to put him in for a medal, he's talking about the Medal of Honor.  Chesty himself gets Navy Cross number 3 (out of 5 total in his career) for Guadalcanal.

[Ghambit]

This last episode was extremely weak given the historical content they had at their disposal.  READING about that particular battle is way more interesting than what we were given on the tube (just like last week).   That being said, I have to believe Spielberg and crew are just holding back because it's not his style to cop out like that.  BoB tended to have scattered moments of tension and greatness, where TP looks to be slowly building instead.

So far though, I have to say BoB is a better series.  The Marines in TP are lacking something I expected to see. 

[Tarami]

It could seriously have fewer long blank stares and emotional close-ups. We get it, they're tormented. The father's little speech to his son couldn't have been more cliché.

[Ghambit]

It could seriously have fewer long blank stares and emotional close-ups. We get it, they're tormented. The father's little speech to his son couldn't have been more cliché.

You nailed it.

[Nebu]

This last episode was extremely weak given the historical content they had at their disposal.  READING about that particular battle is way more interesting than what we were given on the tube (just like last week).   That being said, I have to believe Spielberg and crew are just holding back because it's not his style to cop out like that.  BoB tended to have scattered moments of tension and greatness, where TP looks to be slowly building instead.

So far though, I have to say BoB is a better series.  The Marines in TP are lacking something I expected to see. 

You read my mind completely. 

[Abagadro]

The narrative structures are completely different and if you are waiting for this to be BoB you are going to be disappointed.  BoB was a linear story about a company going from point A (Currahee) to point B (Eagle's Nest).  There were characters that developed (mostly Winters) but it was an group and event-based story.  Pacific is about 3 guys, what they went through, and how it changed them.

[Ghambit]

Pacific is about 3 guys, what they went through, and how it changed them.

Uhhh no.  Hanks and 'Berg fully wanted to capture the epicness of the pacific theatre, as truthfully as possible.  They only intended the 3 guys as a conduit for that.
They never intended the series to be about "3 guys" and went on and on about how no one's really captured the pacific-side of the war yet.

As it stands now, you're better off just watching reruns of Black Sheep Squadron and old Pacific war movies (and maybe "thin red line" if I want my angsty pussy-whipped bohemian marines) than watching this series.  Which to me is a flat out shame given today's tech. and skillsets.

Put it to ya this way... the series needs more Nam-like "Platoon" perhaps combined with "Private Ryan" and less "Thin Red Line."  Maybe it'll come through later on, I dunno... we'll see.  So far they squandered 2 really good battles though.

[Arthur_Parker]

I was expecting better but BoB was incredible, "Day of Days" totally blew me away, as I was a real D-Day nerd in my youth.  Maybe there's a similar episode to come in the Pacific, I hope so.

[Abagadro]

The narrative structure is about 3 guys (not even acting together) as a means of illustrating what happened. 

[Johny Cee]

Pacific is about 3 guys, what they went through, and how it changed them.

Uhhh no.  Hanks and 'Berg fully wanted to capture the epicness of the pacific theatre, as truthfully as possible.  They only intended the 3 guys as a conduit for that.
They never intended the series to be about "3 guys" and went on and on about how no one's really captured the pacific-side of the war yet.

As it stands now, you're better off just watching reruns of Black Sheep Squadron and old Pacific war movies (and maybe "thin red line" if I want my angsty pussy-whipped bohemian marines) than watching this series.  Which to me is a flat out shame given today's tech. and skillsets.

Put it to ya this way... the series needs more Nam-like "Platoon" perhaps combined with "Private Ryan" and less "Thin Red Line."  Maybe it'll come through later on, I dunno... we'll see.  So far they squandered 2 really good battles though.

Quote all of Ab's post.  You and he are saying something similar.

The narrative structure in the Pacific uses three main characters as POVs to tell the story of the Pacific theater.  The series is about the war, yes, not a character based drama that happens to have a war.  Having a couple of limited POVs also limits what narrative tricks you can use to tell the story.  Since you have so few main characters, they are more likely to be archetypal to set up the story arc of the average soldier's experience on that front.

BoB used "the Company" as the POV, so that you could have individual characters come in and out, be killed, and then replaced.  Blythe, for instance, has an entire episode as the POV where he has interactions with many of the big Names of the company (Winters, Welsh, Spiers, Lip) before he meets his fate.  Guarnere, Toye, and Compton are all pretty big parts of the early series until they are casualitied out and we get POVs from Webster, Ramerez and the rest.

Part of what made BoB so intriguing was the narrative style that kept the tension going, and was also a good method for inserting an unreliable narrative.  Nixon was far more troubled than is ever actually dealt with.  Spiers could be either a manipulative angel or psychotic devil.

[Musashi]

I think the problem is the scale of the narrative.  The Marines were stranded on Guadalcanal for like four months before the Army showed up.  This show doesn't really do a good job conveying the weight of that kind of timeline.  In the show it feels like they were there for two weeks.  That's why when we get the long close up that's supposed to convey the emotion, it feels a little laborious because I don't feel like I watched someone sit on jungle island for six months.  But since I already know what happens, I'm kind of able to look past it a little. 

Also, I think they're treading a little lightly on the legendary status, and maybe that's not the best thing for a TV drama.  These stories, especially Chesty Puller, are well known in Marine Corps lore.  If they so much as remotely fucked up Chesty Puller, Marines would literally kill them.  I am not even exaggerating.  Every night before you go to bed, Marines are supposed to say, "Goodnight Chesty Puller, wherever you are."

If you don't care about spoilers, I suggest googling these guys to get a better frame of reference.

Lt. General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
PFC Robert "Lucky" Leckie
GySgt. John "Manila John" Basilone
Cpl. Eugene "Sledgehammer" Sledge

[KallDrexx]

I think the problem is the scale of the narrative.  The Marines were stranded on Guadalcanal for like four months before the Army showed up.

I was trying to figure that out.  While I don't know much about history, the episodes made it feel like they were there for a couple of days of intense fighting, and I was utterly confused on how the army was able to get there so fast and the Navy was able to regroup and retake the seas so that they could be picked up.

I was left trying to figure out how long they had really been there, and feeling like there were only 2 major offenses.

[Abagadro]

The fact that they were down to eating WWI rations and maggot infested rice was a bit of a clue.

[sickrubik]

I think, perhaps to their detriment, that they expect a certain amount of knowledge.

[Slayerik]

I think, perhaps to their detriment, that they expect a certain amount of knowledge.

I like watching history channel war stuff, but I haven't done a ton of reading on the Pacific in WW2. I think they might have done a poor job of demonstrating the time that had passed. It might have worked to even have Hanks come on halfway through, showing some old war footage, and explaining some of this stuff. If you were ask me how long Guadalcanal lasted after watching this I'd think a month or two.

[sickrubik]

Hell, a few dates may have even helped. just display whenever time had passed...