Civilization V- Might actually be good now. Stay tuned.

[Maledict]

Does every civ discussion have to revert to FoH2 self-pleasuring at some point or another? :)

And religion is very easy to do in a non-real world game. I can't really see how it would carry across well without offending a vast number of people one way or the other. (what bonuses does Christianity get over Islam, for example). If you are going to do religion in the real world, Civ 4 at least got that bit right by making them all the same.

[Paelos]

Does every civ discussion have to revert to FoH2 self-pleasuring at some point or another? :)

Only if Sky is posting.

[naum]

And religion is very easy to do in a non-real world game. I can't really see how it would carry across well without offending a vast number of people one way or the other. (what bonuses does Christianity get over Islam, for example). If you are going to do religion in the real world, Civ 4 at least got that bit right by making them all the same.

It can be abstracted out enough without pitting forms against each other and causing grief over maligning a given faith:

* Polytheism
* Monolatrism
* Monotheism
* Wisdom/Philosophy
* Atheistic
* Integral Path (a speculative future faith school/path)

Also, could have a slider on those from mild/tolerant to normal to zealot/fanatic.

Granted, Civ makers tried to funnel this through the honor, liberty, etc.… social settings… …but it's a piss poor copout, IMV…

[rk47]

Too much shitty lore, what a shitty mod. Crazy mod writer. Gimme Civ V(anilla) anyday.

[Paelos]

I could never get over the fact that if you ended up next the Vampires or weren't playing the Vampires, you were boned.

[Amaron]

Screenshot contains unit stack. -1

[Murgos]

Is that some mod for Civ 4 or something? Is it new?   

The phrase, "One trick pony." is Sky's Nom de Guerre.

[Merusk]

Is that some mod for Civ 4 or something? Is it new?   

The phrase, "One trick pony." is Sky's Nom de Guerre.

Quick, throw him some rope!

[Soulflame]

Or you could have a unit that converts other units, then you get your own vampires.   

[Sky]

And religion is very easy to do in a non-real world game. I can't really see how it would carry across well without offending a vast number of people one way or the other. (what bonuses does Christianity get over Islam, for example).

There were some other religions. You give Christianity the Inquisition, both it and Islam get Crusaders, etc. Give them a bonus to quashing other religions. Then have the Norse who get some good combat units, and a Loki hero unit that can cause some chaos ala Perpentach, maybe Heimdall unit that lends the city it's in an airdrop ability. The Greeks get bonus to research, Romans to building. Egyptians also get building bonuses but have to institute slavery to do so.

[Paelos]

Sky's right in that regard, it's not that had to do religion in the game. They just chose to go the most inoffensive route that would appeal to everyone, and that appealed to no one.

[Ingmar]

And religion is very easy to do in a non-real world game. I can't really see how it would carry across well without offending a vast number of people one way or the other. (what bonuses does Christianity get over Islam, for example).

There were some other religions. You give Christianity the Inquisition, both it and Islam get Crusaders, etc. Give them a bonus to quashing other religions. Then have the Norse who get some good combat units, and a Loki hero unit that can cause some chaos ala Perpentach, maybe Heimdall unit that lends the city it's in an airdrop ability. The Greeks get bonus to research, Romans to building. Egyptians also get building bonuses but have to institute slavery to do so.

Ugh, no fantasy elements in my vanilla Civ, thanks.

[Sky]

Ugh, no fantasy elements in my vanilla Civ, thanks.

Good point. Should keep Christianity and Islam out.

[Mazakiel]

Ugh, no fantasy elements in my vanilla Civ, thanks.

Good point. Should keep Christianity and Islam out.

Your point only works if Christianity and Islam gave access to stuff like angel units. 

[Ingmar]

Ugh, no fantasy elements in my vanilla Civ, thanks.

Good point. Should keep Christianity and Islam out.

Um, no, but nice try. If Jesus was a unit I'd say the same thing though.

[naum]

Ugh, no fantasy elements in my vanilla Civ, thanks.

Good point. Should keep Christianity and Islam out.

Civilization without religion really isn't "civilization".  In fact, in ANE, religion, economy, and governance are yoked as one. The "nation" leader is a deity figure, or born/blessed as #1 Lord under, and festivals, harvests, war, economics, even "science" are all part.  All the way up the Renaissance and even post-Enlightenment, religion is major force or factor in any "civilization".  According to some anthropologists, without religion, there would have been no Bronze Age, Axial Age, etc.…

To omit from an even a crude, roughly hewn model of "civilization" -- you really need to remove the "Civilization" from the name and rebrand it "Empire Unversalis" or something to that nature…

[ezrast]

I think you guys are reading way too much into Sky's comment.

It got a smirk out of me.

[Sky]

I think you guys are reading way too much into Sky's comment.

Well, my patron diety IS Loki, so...

Also, a Jesus unit would be great. Provide +1 loaf to a city, +1 movement through water tiles, will respawn in nearby city in 3 turns, etc.

[Sheepherder]

That avatar is actually your portrait, isn't it?

[rk47]

I think you guys are reading way too much into Sky's comment.

Well, my patron diety IS Loki, so...

Also, a Jesus unit would be great. Provide +1 loaf to a city, +1 movement through water tiles, will respawn in nearby city in 3 turns, etc.

Don't forget medic rank 3 promotions. Hot damn, that's a good reason to have priests in FFH. Or orcs warren spamming Soldier of Kilrmorph for Wonders Dominations...shit. Stuff like civ-specific strats are really well done in FFH. I like it. I wish more of those things are in CIV V. i still have it installed, but not played. Still waiting for FFH mod.

[Sky]

Well, that was my round-about, chaos-laden point. I wasn't making another 'ffh2 is gawd' post, I was pointing out that vanilla civ is VERY vanilla, compared to what could be done with the engine. It doesn't need to be fantasy units, necessarily. There is some difference between civs, but not as much as say Hippus vs Clan, which are almost entirely different games despite both being basic warmongerers. And the addition of Basium and Hyborem out-Colonizationed the Colonization remake. I just think there's a real lack of creativity at Firaxis, while I agree the presentation and potential of Civ V is great.

I have always wondered how much of that was Brian Reynolds (Civ 2, Col, SMAC). And how much of a talent drain facebook games has been (on the industry as a whole, really).

[Maledict]

Um, civ has always been fairly generic by design. Personally I think civ 5 is more 'distinct' than previous versions of civ, as the unique civ abilities can and do really change how you play the game. Ulike civ 4 where the traints were common amongst many civs, and there were FAR too many civs by the end, each civ in civ 5 feels more unique and plays to different strategics better. (or has unique strats no-one else can play too, such as the Aztecs, England, Germany, Greece etc).

Fundamentally though, civ should always be more generic than a fictional setting, because it's attempting to mimic actual history. Part of that is having a common set of techs, units and city concepts to play with. As much as a love Alpha Centauri and other games,  no fictional setting can have the same impact as something instantly recogniseable such as writing, plastics etc.

[Trouble]

66% off on the Steam right now. $17.

[Kail]

Grabbed this from the sale, and it seems neat so far (two hours in) but there's one problem: I can't capture cities.  I select a spearman or warrior next to the enemy city, and I can't get them to attack the thing.  Right click doesn't work, attack doesn't work, move doesn't work.  First, I thought there was maybe something explained in the tutorial, but I just tried that and it says jack shit, and I can't conquer the city there either even though it's my only remaining objective, so I can't even finish the damn tutorial.  Is there some new trick to doing this in Civ V, or am I hitting some glitch?

edit: glitch, looks like.  Redownloaded and things are working fine.

[rk47]

Jumped back into the game, random - Prince. Oh, montezuma. Jaguars sucked. Rushed to bronze working. Grab whatever luxury resource to sell off to another civ asap. One spear man finishes, another is bought with gold. Cap a city state. Hopefully with luxury resource....sell off the resource...buy another spearman. Etc. The multiple culture monuments from the puppet states continues to increase my state policy gains while not increasing the requirement.  Annexing it would increase the culture req. How does that work?

I mean, this isn't rocket science, you just have to use gold actively for attack and defense,  but the AI doesn't seem to realize that. Abusing full heal promotions will allow any double team spearmen win most fights in early game. Especially when city states have no army at the start. I puppet a dozen cities and unlocked Steel before getting bored.

[Maledict]

Um, spearmen only have 1 more strength than jaguars. Jaguars rock, and you often end up with units in the end game being the result of 3000 years of careful upgrading and preservating jaguars.

Re. The difficulty - assuming you get a decent start, Montezuma will steam roll opponents on prince level. I'm not sure why this is a shock - every single version of civ, from the original through to 5, has been broken by aggressive steamrolling and rushing in the early game. If it's not a challenge you just up the difficulty level whereof quickly becomes unviable to win that way early on.

I'm really not sure what your complaint is about civ 5 here.

[Ingmar]

Remember too Prince is the "normal" setting now in Civ whereas in prior versions it was the first of the "AI gets to cheat" settings.

[rk47]

Um, spearmen only have 1 more strength than jaguars. Jaguars rock, and you often end up with units in the end game being the result of 3000 years of careful upgrading and preservating jaguars.

Re. The difficulty - assuming you get a decent start, Montezuma will steam roll opponents on prince level. I'm not sure why this is a shock - every single version of civ, from the original through to 5, has been broken by aggressive steamrolling and rushing in the early game. If it's not a challenge you just up the difficulty level whereof quickly becomes unviable to win that way early on.

I'm really not sure what your complaint is about civ 5 here.

Well, fuck. King doesn't even provide much, I rolled France on King and still beat them with the same method. AI gets to cheat is not even going to fix that.. They're barely competent at all unless they have unique units in early play while relying on 'must use hammers to build things' old rule. The Classic Civ IV, pump out mines on high production tiles and such doesn't really pay off in this game. Not that early anyway - you'd better off using gold to finish military units to conquer which has the added effect of golden age from extra great generals you might get.

Jaguars unique ability doesn't mean a thing if you reserve promotions for full heals. And the Jaguars can't even be promoted to Spearmen...wtf ?

My point here is:
Puppet / Annex mechanics isn't going to work well at all when you talk about the culture gains and state policy unlocks being magnified by number of controlled cities. Unhappiness aside, Puppet states is the way to go unless you want to micro the production.

Combat is messed up by the Full Heal Promotions. AI cannot take advantage of that, but human players do, and man, it feels like cheating.

[dusematic]

Um, spearmen only have 1 more strength than jaguars. Jaguars rock, and you often end up with units in the end game being the result of 3000 years of careful upgrading and preservating jaguars.

Re. The difficulty - assuming you get a decent start, Montezuma will steam roll opponents on prince level. I'm not sure why this is a shock - every single version of civ, from the original through to 5, has been broken by aggressive steamrolling and rushing in the early game. If it's not a challenge you just up the difficulty level whereof quickly becomes unviable to win that way early on.

I'm really not sure what your complaint is about civ 5 here.

Well, fuck. King doesn't even provide much, I rolled France on King and still beat them with the same method. AI gets to cheat is not even going to fix that.. They're barely competent at all unless they have unique units in early play while relying on 'must use hammers to build things' old rule. The Classic Civ IV, pump out mines on high production tiles and such doesn't really pay off in this game. Not that early anyway - you'd better off using gold to finish military units to conquer which has the added effect of golden age from extra great generals you might get.

Jaguars unique ability doesn't mean a thing if you reserve promotions for full heals. And the Jaguars can't even be promoted to Spearmen...wtf ?

My point here is:
Puppet / Annex mechanics isn't going to work well at all when you talk about the culture gains and state policy unlocks being magnified by number of controlled cities. Unhappiness aside, Puppet states is the way to go unless you want to micro the production.

Combat is messed up by the Full Heal Promotions. AI cannot take advantage of that, but human players do, and man, it feels like cheating.

Yes, Civ5 is shitcode.  It's rank amateur-hour bush league boring obvious faux-smart guy gameplay.  Basically this is obvious to everyone except newish entrants to the series, casuals, and desperate types.

[Maledict]

Um, spearmen only have 1 more strength than jaguars. Jaguars rock, and you often end up with units in the end game being the result of 3000 years of careful upgrading and preservating jaguars.

Re. The difficulty - assuming you get a decent start, Montezuma will steam roll opponents on prince level. I'm not sure why this is a shock - every single version of civ, from the original through to 5, has been broken by aggressive steamrolling and rushing in the early game. If it's not a challenge you just up the difficulty level whereof quickly becomes unviable to win that way early on.

I'm really not sure what your complaint is about civ 5 here.

Well, fuck. King doesn't even provide much, I rolled France on King and still beat them with the same method. AI gets to cheat is not even going to fix that.. They're barely competent at all unless they have unique units in early play while relying on 'must use hammers to build things' old rule. The Classic Civ IV, pump out mines on high production tiles and such doesn't really pay off in this game. Not that early anyway - you'd better off using gold to finish military units to conquer which has the added effect of golden age from extra great generals you might get.

Jaguars unique ability doesn't mean a thing if you reserve promotions for full heals. And the Jaguars can't even be promoted to Spearmen...wtf ?

My point here is:
Puppet / Annex mechanics isn't going to work well at all when you talk about the culture gains and state policy unlocks being magnified by number of controlled cities. Unhappiness aside, Puppet states is the way to go unless you want to micro the production.

Combat is messed up by the Full Heal Promotions. AI cannot take advantage of that, but human players do, and man, it feels like cheating.

Your point is separate to your complaint. The fact you are rolling via early aggression just means you step up the difficulty, and has nothing to do with the puppet state situation you are outlining.

The puppet mechanics work fine because whilst you do gain an edge in culture and social policies by pupating, you several lose out in terms of happiness and productive cities. Puppet states will build monuments and temples but won't build culture buildings above that level. They prioritise things badly, and focus entirely on making money above all else. You can't rush buy units in them, and in the long run they generate a lot more happiness than annexed cities with courthouses. Puppeting everything works fine on a difficulty level where you don't need the extra power more cities gives you, but it doesn't break the game. Social policies are fantastic but they aren't so powerful they unbalance the game via puppet states.

Re. Full heal promotions - the AI does use them, and will do similar 'cheats' to human players to restore something to full health to then surprise attack. But no, overall the combat AI still isn't as good as it could be / should be. It's a lot better than it was in every respect, and the higher difficulty levels do present challenges now, but it's not perfect. Again though, the examples you are giving confuse me because all you are doing is exactly the same as players did in civ 1 through 4 to win on the lower difficul levels. The AI has *never* been able to cope with a human player going dedicated rush combat early on.

(re. Jaguars - they don't upgrade to spearmen which is a *good* thing. Spearmen only have 1 extra strength. They upgrade to swordsmen and long swordsmen, then musket men, riflemen and through to mechanised infantry. If they upgraded to spearmen they would get locked at the pikeman level).

[rk47]

Sigh.

The full heal promotions allows army to mount self-damaging attacks yet pull off a full heal right at the end of the round by spending his reserved promotion, THEN there's a chance he could pull off a second full heal from another upcoming promo...and that makes running around with veteran armies much too easy vs the AI.

The first step of balancing the combat would be to remove full heal promotion or at least nerf it to 75% health at best to prevent a no-loss scenarios to attacks who gain so much initiative and able to pull off ridiculous recovery at very little risk. 

[Sky]

Or you could, you know, not use that exploit.

[Malakili]

Sigh.

The full heal promotions allows army to mount self-damaging attacks yet pull off a full heal right at the end of the round by spending his reserved promotion, THEN there's a chance he could pull off a second full heal from another upcoming promo...and that makes running around with veteran armies much too easy vs the AI.

The first step of balancing the combat would be to remove full heal promotion or at least nerf it to 75% health at best to prevent a no-loss scenarios to attacks who gain so much initiative and able to pull off ridiculous recovery at very little risk. 

This is especiall devestation with Japan in my experience.

[dusematic]

Or you could, you know, not use that exploit.

That's like someone complaining about running the clock out in a game of Madden.  It's only an "exploit" in that it's an effective strategy that is completely permissible and even encouraged by the game rules. 

[Ingmar]

Or you could, you know, not use that exploit.

That's like someone complaining about running the clock out in a game of Madden.  It's only an "exploit" in that it's an effective strategy that is completely permissible and even encouraged by the game rules. 

Meh, they're talking about the game in a single player context. It isn't like it is hard to set yourself some extra rules to not use against the AI, nothing is at stake.