SkyFall: James Bond #23

[eldaec]

There was nothing wrong with Timothy Dalton.

Plenty of people in this thread (and all British film critics) seem to think Bond films should be regarded as either pure awesome or terrible, and that unlike almost every other film we discuss here discussion of them is somehow invalid.

I don't know what it is about bond films that makes people feel that the kind of nerd discussion going on *right now* in the looper and hobbit threads is out of bounds.

[Sir T]

I thought Dalton was pretty good too. It wasn't his fault that his second film sucked, he was fine in a lousy script.

[Rishathra]

The Living Daylights is one of my favorite Bond films.  I didn't understand the Timothy Dalton hate until I saw License to Kill, but even then, as has been said, it was a good Bond in an awful movie.

[Shannow]

I thought Dalton was pretty good too. It wasn't his fault that his second film sucked, he was fine in a lousy script.

Quantum of Solace vs License to Kill? Which is worse?

Personally I think Ltk was the worst Bond movie I ever saw (I enjoyed Living Daylights), QoS was bad but not THAT bad.

[Merusk]

LTK was by far one of the worst Bond scripts ever, but I wouldn't call it THE worst.  Some of Roger Moore's scripts were far worse because they delved way in to ridiculous camp.  Bond can be campy, but when you have a recurring character that's a Southern Hick stereotype you've gone too far.

Dalton and Moore are often regarded as the worst Bonds, but I think they acted well given what they had to work with.  I certainly never thought they were terrible in and of themselves.

[Rishathra]

If you haven't already, I would suggest re-watching Quantum of Solace.  I found it to be much more enjoyable and not at all bad on subsequent viewings.  It was VERY disappointing for something immediately following Casino Royale, but seen on its own merits it gains considerably.  My one major gripe is the car chase at the beginning, which consists of nothing but non-stop cuts.  The entire sequence spends no longer than two seconds on any one shot.

[Khaldun]

I thought the plot line and the introduction of SPECTRE in QoS were fine, and there was some nice characterization continuity with Casino. It was really the shaky cam cinematography that put me off.

[eldaec]

Quantum of Solace vs License to Kill? Which is worse?

Question of Sport - it isn't even close. QoS goes into the same bracket as Die Another Day or Never Say Never. Picking the worst of those three is tougher (it probably isn't QoS).

License to Kill isn't actually as bad as the rap it gets. It got hit by a writers strike like QoS, but at least has a story - in common with the connery films and early moore, there is an actual thriller alongside the explosions.

[eldaec]

On reflection, worst 5 bond films:

1) Die Another Day
2) Never say Never*
3) Quantum of Solace
4) World is Not Enough
5) Tomorrow never Dies

Honorable Mentions:

Octopussy
Licence to Kill



Top 5:

1) From Russia With Love
2) Live and Let Die
3) Goldfinger
4) Casino Royale
5) The Man with the Golden Gun
 
Honorable Mentions

Goldeneye
OHMSS
Living Daylights

Top 5 is much harder to write out than bottom 5.



*I know.

[Trippy]

Dalton's Bond in License to Kill was much more like the Bond in the books than the "dandy" that was Moore.

[eldaec]

Even in Living Daylights Dalton managed to give the character an edge - which is even more impressive given the writers clearly had other things in mind.

[Sir T]

I would agree. I wish Dalton would have stuck around for more than the 2 films.

[eldaec]

To be fair, he would have been a bit over 50 by the time Goldeneye was made.

[Sir T]

Yeah, there was something like 6 years, a few law suits and a change of company between LTK and Goldeneye, wasn't there.

[Shannow]

You really don't like brosnan bond movies huh?  Honestly I can't disagree though.  Still think ltk needs to be in bottom five though.  The one thing I seem to remember is that it had the production values of a bad telemovie. 

[eldaec]

If you can explain the plot of either world is not enough or tomorrow never dies inside of two sentences you can have LtK in the bottom 5.

[Ubvman]

If you can explain the plot of either world is not enough or tomorrow never dies inside of two sentences you can have LtK in the bottom 5.

World is not enough:
Rich traumatized beautiful girl turns evil, teams up with former captor turned henchman; kills father and intends to blow up oil pipeline with a nuclear bomb for profit. (plan does not makes sense)
Bond teams up with hilariously miscast "wild things" actress and Hagrid to foil them.

Tomorrow Never Dies:
Rich evil media baron plots using a stealth supership to provoke a war between China and Britain so he can corner the China media market. (!!!! plan also does not make sense)
Bond teams up with China's own female superspy to foil evil baron plans.

Tomorrow Never Dies is pretty decent IMHO despite Jonathan Pryce being one of the lousiest villains in the Bond films. Michelle Yeoh more than makes up for it IMO.
I don't see where this Brosnan hate is coming from, he is clearly miles better than Moore even when Moore actually fitted the role.

Also, how did "Man with the Golden Gun" rank so high on your scale? Man with triple nipples killing people with a gun made out of a gold pen and lighter and his evil henchman Tattoo intends to corner the world solar power market (plan does not make sense). Bond teams up with red neck sheriff (who was on holiday in Thailand) to foil him.

Timothy Dalton is actually a good actor and would have actually been a great Bond if he had been given decent scripts and directing to work with.

[eldaec]

We went over it earlier, but I have no beef with Brosnan. He's easily the least good bond but not actively bad.

The problem with his films post-Goldeneye was in hiring the worst screenwriters working today and mediocre direction.

Golden Gun I probably just like for being one of first I remember watching. But, like LaLD, OHMSS, or the Connery films, there is an actual thriller in there. Maud Adams acts genuinely scared. Bond rides a proper tightrope of using her while trying to protect her (not, for example, fucking her after a 30 second conversation which established she was deeply disturbed and throwing her life away for no reason in the next scene) . I wouldn't argue if someone wanted to put any if the honorable mentions or two or three others in 5th spot.

Tomorrow never dies was the first bond film I found myself dozing off in. It isn't a story, just a sequence of bits in which stuff just happens arbitrarily. Aside from first and last scene it might as well be another "Transporter" movie.

Underpants elves references are not the same thing as a plot.

[Shannow]

If you can explain the plot of either world is not enough or tomorrow never dies inside of two sentences you can have LtK in the bottom 5.

I refuse!  Actually I didn't mind the world is not enough. Tommorrow never dies and whatever that stupid one was with Halle berry can however burn in hell.   I actually never got through the one with Halle berry is was that bad.

Man with the Golden gun was also the first bond I ever saw and is still awesome!  Bond does karate! Cars doing spins while jumping ...3 nipples!   

[lamaros]

No one having a go at scripts can say that skyfall was decent.

[eldaec]

Tomorrow never Dies through to Skyfall are all written by the same pair of "writers". Casino and Skyfall are far better than the other four. I presume they had more help on those two.

[UnSub]

"Casino Royale" had the support of existing Bond material. Although probably not the Larry Niven movie.

A big issue with "Quantum of Solace" is that the villains were horribly miscast. No-one looks threatening with a bowl cut. Plus the "we'll steal all the water!" angle meant very little to a lot of audiences, even if it was a solid plan.

"Skyfall" had a much better villain, but the script was awful. "Bond / MI6 is old, old, old" was a straw man argument that the writers tried to hammer into the audience, but there never was a valid alternative provided. It was a false threat that never took.

[Tebonas]

That, and James Bond came off as a total loser in Skyfall. I think there wasn't a single objective he succeeded at and his disgregard for collateral damage was also baffling. I realized that when I saw an older Bond a few days ago where Bond actually tried not to get his bedbunnys killed if it could be helped.

[tazelbain]

Prefer this Bond vastly over Mary Sue Bond.

[K9]

Prefer this Bond vastly over Mary Sue Bond.

*nod*

Also, Moonraker is my guilty pleasure. Sure it's fucking daft beyond words, but it's daft in a fun way.

[Tannhauser]

Moonraker was the first Bond movie I saw in the theater.  Snuck back for a second showing. :)  One of my top 5 Bond films; mainly for nostalgia I guess.

My Bond ranking

Connery ***** Not afraid to smack a bitch, but only if she gets in the way of his mission.
Moore **  Some great early movies followed by less great.  Penalized two stars for the clown suit alone.
Lazenby *** Only one movie.  He was good but I never fully embraced him as Bond since he was so brief.
Dalton ****  Criminally underrated.  Only two movies, but he WAS Bond.
Brosnan ****  I don't understand the hate.  Brosnan always brought the goods.  Only had one bad movie IMO.
Craig **** (before Skyfall), ** (after Skyfall)  Bond doesn't cry.  Taking an elderly woman out to a drafty manor in the winter to die was 

[Rishathra]

I don't think the Brosnan hate is directed towards Brosnan himself.  The scripts were mostly ass, though.

[eldaec]

Brosnan himself is just a blander version of Dalton or Lazenby.

He brings little, but the films (except GoldenEye) would be dire even if Laurence Olivier was resurrected to play Bond.

[Shannow]

Prefer this Bond vastly over Mary Sue Bond.

*nod*

Also, Moonraker is my guilty pleasure. Sure it's fucking daft beyond words, but it's daft in a fun way.

You've described 80% of Bond films, and 100% of Roger Moore's....(I mean shit they had George Mcdonald Fraser write Octopussy...which is secretly in my top 5 bond movies)

[HaemishM]

Brosnan himself is just a blander version of Dalton or Lazenby.

He brings little, but the films (except GoldenEye) would be dire even if Laurence Olivier was resurrected to play Bond.

Brosnan brought a lot of the charm that Dalton lacked. Dalton is by far the better actor and much closer to the Bond written by Ian Fleming than most (as is Craig). It didn't help him that his movies came right after the Cold War when the very concept of Bond SUPER INTERNATIONAL SPY was being re-examined as kind of outdated. I mean, he had to fight fucking drug dealers FFS. The Brosnan movies all suffered from the scripts being complete and utter fucking assgargle. Even Goldeneye, the most sensical of the lot, had that ridiculous goddamn motorcycle chasing a plane down a ravine scene. Tomorrow Never Dies was my favorite of the Brosnan movies, but only because of Michelle Yeoh - the villain and plot were 

[Lantyssa]

It's sad the Bronsnan scripts were so bad.  I've loved his style since Remington Steele (thanks, mom).

[Strazos]

I'll take the challenge from above:

Tomorrow Never Dies - Media mogul attempts to manufacture a war between the Brits and Chinese for fun and profit, foiled by Bond and his Chinese femme fatale counterpart.

Also, Teri Hatcher. 

See, was that so hard? 

As for ranking Bond films, I'm a bit under-equipped as my first Bond film was Goldeneye, though I recently purchased the complete BD collection and I'm working my way through it. Without commenting on Lazenby/Dalton:

1. Craig
2. Connery
3. Brosnan
4. Moore

Craig and Connery are honestly a toss-up for me, depending on mood - I found Dr No to be pretty tough to get through, though FRWL was awesome and I'm still working my way forward. I've liked the Craig films so far, but haven't seen Skyfall yet. I'm generally a Brosnan fan, though his films went steadily downward (not his fault). Moore is generally just too damn campy - does that damn clown suit show up in multiple films? 

[satael]

I prefer Connery and Moore over Craig due to them having a slight humorous side while Craig is just too serious (for what I grew up thinking Bond movies should be like)

[K9]

Skyfall is now the 7th highest grossing film of all time

The people have spoken, and I'm impressed that a Bond movie managed to gross that much

[MahrinSkel]

Finally saw this.  Not sure why all the hate, it's a darker, less gadget filled (read: fewer product placements) Bond, but it's a Bond film.  Sure, Bond fails at every single objective, but that's because M is failing in her chess game against Silva.  The whole point is that M's older broken toy has come back to haunt her, and Bond, who has been treated just as badly, is trying to stop him and not succeeding.  Bond is trying to save M from her own mistakes, but he *is* one of her mistakes and therefore destined to fail.

--Dave