Torchlight (The mmo version)

[Mrbloodworth]

Torchlight: Discussing the Torchlight MMO

Torchlight is a single-player Action-RPG game and the first offering of indie studio Runic Games founded by Max Schaefer and Travis Baldree. Do those guys sound familiar? Only if you played Mythos and Hellgate: London or knew about Blizzard North. Both were part of (now closed) Flagship Studios. These are the gentlemen with Diablo/Diablo II / Fate Action-RPG and Hellgate: London / Mythos MMOGs under their belt. Within months of Flagship Studios going down, we received news of Runic Games opening and a new Fate-like, Diablo-esque Action-RPG in the works with plans for taking it to MMOG.

Torchlight looked and played well in demos at conventions. It was easy to get into, with a simple interface, good sound and music, and good looking. Released on October 27th, it has received acclaim from many critics and I was curious to know how a game like Torchlight would be developed into an MMOG.
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Runic Games President and Torchlight Lead Designer Travis Baldree, Art Director Jason Beck and Zombie Pyrotechnician (no kidding) John Dunbar, a Producer type talked about their plans, their aspirations and their hopes for what we dubbed “Torchlight, the MMO” over the conference table.

“We hope to create a game that plays like Torchlight single-player in an MMO environment,” said Travis.

“Quick gameplay and highly soloable,” tossed in John.

“But with party support skills,” added Jason.

Soon, it was evident that all three were on the same page as they continued to speak of their plans, often ending each others sentences, adding to what each described.

There will of course be more classes. More customization, an expanded “wardrobing” system. Party support skills will be AE more likely than single target.

“We want to preserve the gameplay style. The look and feel of the Torchlight world,” said Jason,

“And we’re keeping the pets,” added Travis. A nod to Fate, revealed by Travis, a feature that not many knew about. In Fate, you could actually teach your pet spells by feeding them the spells. It would randomly use them and then forget them. In Torchlight, your pet can be taught two spells which it uses at random. It also has inventory space, picks up your treasures and takes a jaunt to town to sell them for you.

“Will it do that in the MMO?”

“Maaaaybe…” Travis responded, reminding me that although there are plans, ideas and aspirations, none are carved in stone.

“I’ll make sure it still can summon zombie skeletons!” quipped John.

“With fireballs?”

“With fireballs,” he agreed with a grin.

Torchlight is short on backstory and long on game-play. The town of Torchlight is like a wild-west border town and a precious magical material, Ember has been found in the mines and so it goes, giving you a reason to go into the mines to fight monsters, pick up precious Ember and other kewl lewt that just happens to drop off the monsters that live in there, never mind where that spider kept the honking big sword.

There will be PvP in “Torchlight, The MMO” and they hope recreate the “wild-west” PvP feel in Mythos as well as the Karma system. It will be fast enough so as not to be intimidating. Half hour fights aren’t planned. Quick, accessible, duels and team based PvP features are planned, and Region based territorial control hoped for.

“Competitive PvE too,” said John, “would be nice. Dungeon diving contests. Most points, most loot, that sort of thing.”

The world will be a mix of persistent elements and instanced elements. The open world, the towns and some of the dungeons will be shared, others will be instanced. Runic has a system to generate random dungeons and quests by putting different pieces together. Just like Diablo did with random maps and Torchlight currently does with random dungeons. It’s a feature that keeps the game fresh as you enter what’s seemingly the same dungeon again and again. Apart from the overarching storyline quests, random quests will also be available. Visiting NPC A standing in front of the mouth of the cave will yield a “Kill X number of Y monsters and bring me the head/toe/hand of boss Z for XP, gold and random reward.”

We talked about character development, including Crafting which will be skill-tree based. The team drew on the best of Mythos and what they would bring into “Torchlight, The MMO” from it. One of them was the idea of skill sub-sets; the ability to improve sub-sets of a skill. Another was the achievement system – the idea of equipable perks which gave stat boots.

“The plan really, is to take Torchlight as it is, get it to multi-player and balance for PvP as soon as possible,” said Travis. “From there, we expand the world, add new classes, get it to an Alpha state, start testing and iterate from there.”

“Not just a generic fantasy world, but our own version, our own style,” said Jason who liked that fact that the look and art style of Torchlight could not be simply categorized. “We’ve made a much richer world than a generic fantasy land. Yes, we have heard it called a fantasy/steampunk/pixar mash-up.” With a pinch of luck, it will soon be called the Torchlight style.

Launch of the MMO is still about two years off and at this time, their first patch for Torchlight the single player game is coming up. Player modding tools are about to be released and it’s full-steam ahead for the MMO. Torchlight is available via download only. At a price-point of $19.95, it has been a “I’ll try it” among my gaming buddies and a couple of programmer friends are already drooling at the prospect of the Modding tools. As for me, I played Diablo II and am loving my doggie pet Phydeaux in Torchlight. There are no plans at this time to bring a multi-player aspect to the current Torchlight game, but who knows what developments will come in the future as Runic preps the game for the MMO?

[Malakili]

I'm actually looking forward to this.  I don't know how many people played Mythos here, but it was really great fun.  It played a lot like Torchlight plays (for obvious reasons).  It really was an ARPG mmo with all the trappings you would expect.  Its a shame it never got off the ground, but frankly, I'm happier to see Runic running this than Flagship anyway, cause Flagship didn't seem to have a lick of business sense, and Runic seems to have plenty of it.

Its going to be Free to play with micro transactions. That used to be a pay model that turned me off games, but frankly I just don't care anymore.  If they game is fun, I'll play it, and spend cash on the things I want.  Hopefully they can bring back the magic they had going with Mythos.

[Sjofn]

I just ... I guess I just don't see why they feel the need to make an MMO out of Torchlight. While the single player game screeeeeams for multiplayer, it doesn't really cry out to be MMO'd.

But if it means I can play a lady alchemist, I guess I can allow it. 

[Lantyssa]

But if it means I can play a lady alchemist, with pants, I guess I can allow it. 

Tweaked it for you.

[Merusk]

Maybe they mean "MMO" in the same sense that Guild Wars is an MMO.  The game's fun.. tons of fun (Which surprises me because I usually hate Diablo Clones) but I can't see it being your traditional "one world, many players" MMO.

[Mrbloodworth]

Bet its just like dungeon runners.

[Ingmar]

Did Dungeon Runners have a shared overworld?

[Mrbloodworth]

Town hub(s).

[Ingmar]

It sounds like this will have a bit more than that - the implication is you can run around wherever outside, together, a la a more traditional MMO. But it's precious few details to go on at this point I guess.

[Sjofn]

But if it means I can play a lady alchemist, with pants, I guess I can allow it. 

Tweaked it for you.

Goodness, how could I have forgotten pants? 

[Malakili]

For a long time Mythos was only shared towns with dungeons that were instanced.  I think this might be dungeon runners style (but I never played that).  However, after a LOT of playerbase feedback asking for an "Overworld" they eventually added in larger shared non instanced world from which countless dungeons spawned off of. Generally outside every dungeon there would be a vendor, and a guy that could send you back to the deepest level of that dungeon you had been to.  Then the whole thing went belly up when Hellgate: London folded, and Flagship had put up all their assets for a loan at some point, so there it all went.

It is sort of hard to explain, cause you would think the genre really doesn't "need" a traditional MMO structure.  And it probably doesn't "need" it.  But damn, it was fun. 

[Tannhauser]

Very much looking forward to this!  But I hope they put a few static dungeons in.  I really liked UO because they had/have these permanent dungeons where you knew what was around the corner.  You knew where the lich was etc.  Maybe that's a throwback idea but it makes the world more real to me.

[Draegan]

Mythos was great, but their classes were terrible.

[Teleku]

Very much looking forward to this!  But I hope they put a few static dungeons in.  I really liked UO because they had/have these permanent dungeons where you knew what was around the corner.  You knew where the lich was etc.  Maybe that's a throwback idea but it makes the world more real to me.

How is it more real to have the same lich you've already killed appear in the same dungeon in the same place every time you walk back into it?   

[Malakili]

Mythos was great, but their classes were terrible.

I liked them conceptually, but the balance was pretty bad.

[Yegolev]

Initially, Mythos was like Dungeon Runners, or maybe DR was like Mythos, but at the end they added the overworld.  I had mixed feelings about that, preferring the instance-dungeon-with-minimal-travel gameplay.  On the other hand, I did enjoy exploring the overworld.  No matter, this will be a day-one purchase for me.

[Malakili]

  No matter, this will be a day-one purchase free download for me.

Fixed.

Just want to pre-empt confusion about the price structure.  Free to play with micros.

[Tannhauser]

Very much looking forward to this!  But I hope they put a few static dungeons in.  I really liked UO because they had/have these permanent dungeons where you knew what was around the corner.  You knew where the lich was etc.  Maybe that's a throwback idea but it makes the world more real to me.

How is it more real to have the same lich you've already killed appear in the same dungeon in the same place every time you walk back into it?   

It's more real because it makes the world feel more static in a world of random dungeons.  Yeah I know it's kinda weird.

[Malakili]

The team behind the fantastic action-RPG Torchlight are making an MMO, an MMO that will be free-to-play, but supported by microtransactions. Although little’s known about the MMO, the Torchlight team talk about their plans in the new issue of PC Gamer, on-sale in the UK on Thursday. In the mag, they reveal that they’re aiming for an MMO that feels like a single player game, and it’ll retain the same fast action. Their president Travis Baldree also shows he has a traditional PC gamer attitude towards microtransactions.

Baldree says, “our vision is to have an MMO that plays as close to single player as we can get it. It will have the same focus on relatively fast action: carving your way through hordes of monsters with a large number of hugely devastating skills. The game has to be solo-able, but players will have to have skills that make them useful in a party and make them work together.”

Travis also says that even though the Torchlight MMO business model will be based around microstransactions, he won’t be buying any items. “I will never, ever buy a microtransaction item,” he states. “I’m that kind of player. And the game has to be enjoyable for me, too. We don’t want our monetisation stuff to offer ways to skip the game because the game is boring.”

Many more details in the new issue of PC Gamer UK – on-sale on Thursday.\

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/29/torchlight-mmo-details-in-the-new-pc-gamer/

Sounds similar to how Mythos was shaping up.  Hopefully this'll live up to the single player version.

[Paelos]

If they do the game as various instances with a chat lobby / trading system / player housing, they will be just fine and I will support their product.

[Modern Angel]

It being just like Mythos would be more than fine. The real tragedy of Flagship folding was Mythos, not Hellgate.

[Malakili]

It being just like Mythos would be more than fine. The real tragedy of Flagship folding was Mythos, not Hellgate.

So true, it was the superior game.  Luckily Torchlight has taken up the mantle nicely so far.

[Ratman_tf]

If this is just the missing multiplayer component, I won't bark too much. But really, Torchlight 2 is all I want. I realize I'm in a vocal minority, but fuck multiplayer. And fuck MMOing it right in the ear.

[Malakili]

If this is just the missing multiplayer component, I won't bark too much. But really, Torchlight 2 is all I want. I realize I'm in a vocal minority, but fuck multiplayer. And fuck MMOing it right in the ear.

Did you play Mythos at all?  It was really excellent.

[Ratman_tf]

If this is just the missing multiplayer component, I won't bark too much. But really, Torchlight 2 is all I want. I realize I'm in a vocal minority, but fuck multiplayer. And fuck MMOing it right in the ear.

Did you play Mythos at all?  It was really excellent.

I think I played it for a little bit, but I honestley don't remember.

[Typhon]

If this is just the missing multiplayer component, I won't bark too much. But really, Torchlight 2 is all I want. I realize I'm in a vocal minority, but fuck multiplayer. And fuck MMOing it right in the ear.

A Torchlight that is playable with a small squad and has access to an auction house.  That's what I want. 

MMO?  Who cares?  I played DAOC, I know first-hand that "MMO" doesn't mean what people think it means.  MMO = lag.  MMO = barrens chat.  MMO means that your contribution to a battle means both jack and squat.

I just want MO - multiplayer online.  Massive brings nothing that I like.

[Malakili]

If this is just the missing multiplayer component, I won't bark too much. But really, Torchlight 2 is all I want. I realize I'm in a vocal minority, but fuck multiplayer. And fuck MMOing it right in the ear.

A Torchlight that is playable with a small squad and has access to an auction house.  That's what I want. 

MMO?  Who cares?  I played DAOC, I know first-hand that "MMO" doesn't mean what people think it means.  MMO = lag.  MMO = barrens chat.  MMO means that your contribution to a battle means both jack and squat.

I just want MO - multiplayer online.  Massive brings nothing that I like.

Well, thats more or less what you'll get with this, I suspect, if it is like Mythos.  Mostly instanced except for towns, group up for added fun, mostly soloable.  Kind of funny that this is exactly the kind of thing I would HATE in most other things labeling themselves an MMO, but this is an ARPG, and for some reason thats enough of a difference for me.

[Nija]

When they say MMO, my guess is that it's obviously going to be like Mythos right before the plug was pulled. It was leaning towards a cross between Anarchy Online and graphical version of battle.net. You'll have shared towns and some overland maps that are also shared before you go into instanced dungeons and that sort of thing.

It'll be as massive as you want to make it. Friends list it up and play with a couple other people or be a 39 year old 300 lbs female social butterfly/guild destroyer.

[Fordel]

Free to play Multiplayer Torchlight, I could see myself screwing around with that for awhile.

[Signe]

Free to play Multiplayer Torchlight, I could see myself screwing around with that for awhile.

Me, too.  I certainly had good fun with Mythos, even all by myself.  It was a really, really good time waster when I was doing laundry or waiting for the oven time to ding.

[Malakili]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/07/08/light-from-the-darkness-the-making-of-torchlight/

Longer article that was referenced in my previous link.  1/2 Post Mortem on Torchlight, 1/2 info about the upcoming MMO version, though most of it is vague. 

[Ratman_tf]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/07/08/light-from-the-darkness-the-making-of-torchlight/

Longer article that was referenced in my previous link.  1/2 Post Mortem on Torchlight, 1/2 info about the upcoming MMO version, though most of it is vague. 

Vague, but promising.

[Count Nerfedalot]

I like the sound of it so far, but there was one quote that really worries me:

<quote>
“I think our overall business philosophy is that we just want to have the widest base possible,” says Erich. “We want as many free players as possible. We’ll worry about converting a few into payers as a secondary thought.”
</quote>

Doesn't that pretty much sum up the business philosophy that sank Flagship Studios?  Build it now and figure out how to make money on it later?

[Malakili]

I like the sound of it so far, but there was one quote that really worries me:

<quote>
“I think our overall business philosophy is that we just want to have the widest base possible,” says Erich. “We want as many free players as possible. We’ll worry about converting a few into payers as a secondary thought.”
</quote>

Doesn't that pretty much sum up the business philosophy that sank Flagship Studios?  Build it now and figure out how to make money on it later?

I hope they don't just assume that free players will pay as a matter of course if they like the game.  I mean, if I'm enjoying the game I might buy a new outfit or something for my character every so often, but I won't if its more than a couple bucks, a couple bucks every once in a while isn't going to make them the monies.

Frankly, I just wish they'd figure out what the need the average monthly bill to be and just charge that per month.

[Stabs]

My impression from DDO's f2p system was that a great deal of research, thought and marketing expertise went into crafting it. It wasn't simply tacked on. I believe one of their executives said it took two years to plan. It's very good at breaking down certain significant barrier moments to paying.

- free Turbine Points as you play breaks down the barrier to using the shop. Everyone uses the shop to at least spend the free points.

- big upgrade to your account first time you spend cash. Any amount, the minimum is $6 or so, upgrades you to Premium which is much better.

- continually changing list of discounted items. Even when I had no intention of spending anything I had to look just in case there was a huge discount on something I wanted.

- very regular content updates some of which is free. So if you had hit the paywall and got bored you could come back to try out new free dungeons.

- forum support without giving non-payers the ability to spam every board. The free players forum is very helpful and the elder community really works hard to help new people get started.


You can't get all that right if your cash shop is an afterthought. Of course the opposite is also terrible: over-design of monetising features. No one wants to feel they put this cliff in to get you to buy the levitation potion from the cash shop.