Patch 3.3

[apocrypha]

Did the first 3 parts of ICC in a cross-realm PUG this morning. Couple of wipes, some learning, but overall it was awesome. Fun instances, good loot, good fun.

My only complaint so far is the crippling of the Need/Greed system. As a shaman I can now no long roll for cloth/leather items for my resto off-spec, which is just stupid. I'd never roll Need over someone who wanted an item for their main spec but now with the Disenchant option you often can't even trade the item afterwards because it's been sharded. Had to watch two resto set upgrades get turned into dust this morning. Stupid stupid stupid.

[Merusk]

Then don't run them in the PUG system.  The old "run there yourself" is still an option.

The NBG system has to be that way, because even if YOU wouldn't abuse it, plenty of others would.  4 random strangers, no chance of any consequences stemming from being a dickweed, yeah that always works out for the best.

[Merusk]

I PUGed all three heroic ICC 5 mans today.  Not one dude was over 3k DPS.  We had a Shaman healer who was just as badly geared as I was.  The tank had Uld 10 gear. 

I wasnt saying that is super hard, just that you do need some existing gear, making these not into level dungeons. If a full group hits HoR in a mix of green and blue gear, they will fail unless they are a very high quality of player.

Well, we'll never know for certain on that one. You're locked out of the dungeon if you're in mixed blues & greens.  My Horde pally has all of 6 hours at level 80 so the dungeon system tells me "You need better gear" for both ToC and ICC instances.   Oh noes, gear scoring!

[Jayce]

Important undocumented change!  Wyrmrest Temple is now a proper inn, where you go into zzz mode and can logoff immediately!

But seriously, I used the dungeon finder last night to get my Oculus run for a few pieces of my tanking set and got a group immediately.  When the instance server kicked us out, two groups quit on me. But we found that you can spam the "Teleport to instance" button (right click the eye icon hanging on your minimap) and eventually it will let you in. Little protip there.

[Simond]

A mod named "Gearscore Breaker".  It does exactly what it says on the tin.

[Mattemeo]

# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Icecrown Citadel raid dungeons has been reduced.
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Frozen Halls 5 player dungeons has been reduced.

Haha, no shit. For the hour or so I was on last night (mostly to say hello to guildies but also managed to kick Anub'rekhan's beetle-arse for the raid weekly*), someone got a Dalaran-wide shout-out for creating Quel'Delar every 2 minutes.




*bring back the dungeon dailys, Blizz. There was no reason to remove them at all, and now Timear doesn't even do anything. I don't see why Lan'dalock can't offer both daily and weekly quests

[Delmania]

A mod named "Gearscore Breaker".  It does exactly what it says on the tin.

Win, I am getting that!

[Nebu]

A mod named "Gearscore Breaker".  It does exactly what it says on the tin.

Win, I am getting that!

This is one mod that I can get behind.  I love it. 

[Selby]

Heroic Halls of Reflection really comes down to group makeup.  Last night no matter how much we tried, our DK tank, pally healer, and mage\'lock\hunter just could NOT overcome the amount of damage generated on that last wave of spirits.  Either the priest would cower the healer or the rogues would shadowstep and insta-kill me or the warlock before the healer could react.  I'm sure it'll get detuned or easier once people know it better, but so far it's definitely not something I would be comfortable stepping into with random people in blues and greens ;-)  The other 2 new heroics aren't that bad though, some mechanisms to be learned obviously.

[apocrypha]

Then don't run them in the PUG system.  The old "run there yourself" is still an option.

The NBG system has to be that way, because even if YOU wouldn't abuse it, plenty of others would.  4 random strangers, no chance of any consequences stemming from being a dickweed, yeah that always works out for the best.

I shall be pugging anything beyond normal 5-mans for a while yet, my guild is small and mostly fairly new to the game. I understand the reason behind it, doesn't stop it being galling watching gear get sharded like this.

Maybe my server is particularly mature/good-natured/whatever, but there's never been any loot problems in pugs I've been in since WotLK, and it feels like a shame that we have to see good loot that could be useful to others getting sharded because other people are dicks.

[Ashamanchill]

# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Icecrown Citadel raid dungeons has been reduced.
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Frozen Halls 5 player dungeons has been reduced.

Haha, no shit. For the hour or so I was on last night (mostly to say hello to guildies but also managed to kick Anub'rekhan's beetle-arse for the raid weekly*), someone got a Dalaran-wide shout-out for creating Quel'Delar every 2 minutes.

Bastards. God forbid they wait to do it until I get the drop. 

[SurfD]

Heroic Halls of Reflection really comes down to group makeup.  Last night no matter how much we tried, our DK tank, pally healer, and mage\'lock\hunter just could NOT overcome the amount of damage generated on that last wave of spirits.  Either the priest would cower the healer or the rogues would shadowstep and insta-kill me or the warlock before the healer could react.  I'm sure it'll get detuned or easier once people know it better, but so far it's definitely not something I would be comfortable stepping into with random people in blues and greens ;-)  The other 2 new heroics aren't that bad though, some mechanisms to be learned obviously.

HoR is probably the worst instance out of the 3 to try with undergeared people (and by undergeared, i mean full normal Heroic Epics is cutting it close).  Assuming you get past the first part (which is more about actually using croud controll if you have it, and prioritizing targets to burn while hopeing you have at least 1 decurse / poison / disease clenese), the Escape from Arthas event will probably crush your group unless you can pull some pretty crazy dps (its almost completely a DPS race, and is tuned pretty high).

if you had a Holy Paladin / Hunter in your group, you should have tried to have something Feared / Trapped as often as you could (priest / Hunter / Mage being prime targets).

[Lakov_Sanite]

You know you are NOT locked out of the new instances based on your gear right? You just can't use the new nifty lfg tool to get to them. The 'old' method of having your guildies carry your alt through them is still viable, you just have to go there manually.

[Soulflame]

I've cleared H Gundrak in 11 minutes.  I think the longest it takes, for a four boss instance, is maybe 20 minutes, and that's one with stupid slow-you-down mechanics like HoL or UP.  I think being annoyed about a two boss dungeon taking 20 minutes is warranted.

I'll be waiting to watch your tears when you hit HHoR though.  I hope you enjoy wiping!  (Bring CC, an AE healer, and a damn sharp tank.  Or don't even bother.  Oh, and be prepared to cleanse a multitude of debuffs, deal with silences, fears, etc.)

It will be delicious.

No, I'm pretty sure bitching about not being able to clear a two boss heroic that drops the loot it drops in 20 minute is just that. Bitching.

I did indeed spend a lot of time wiping in HHoR tonight. My cheeks remain dry, however. This reminds me of the wailing about heroic MgT back when that was brandy dandy new. My God, we have to think?! BLIZZARD YOU SUCK OMG


EDIT: Also yeah, Wipefest 2009 was partly due to crappy CCing, some not paying attention to OW WTF IS HITTING ME AUGH, the healer not having healed a 5 man in a billion jillion years (I'm not gonna say which is easier, but I think they're pretty clearly different styles), etc. Plus I sux at tank. 

I think you misunderstood me, so I'll clarify.

I found the place challenging.  We wiped once, and then plowed through the rest of it with little issue.  We even got the "We aren't retreating!" achievement.  It annoys me a bit, because I overgear the place.  My point is this - if you do not overgear the place, you will have a very hard time clearing it.  I think the instance is overtuned for the people it should be targeted to, which is the people who are running it for the loot.

I don't mind -hard-.  I do mind that "hard" is currently defined as "spam your biggest heal until enough mobs are dead that you can spam your smaller heal, maybe.  Oh, and move from fire, plus use assorted cooldowns and abilities.  On top of that, manage your mana!"  None of that is hard, and most of it is second nature to me after this expansion.

I guess I said it poorly the first time.   

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm such a badass at this game that if I had some trouble with it, it must be impossible for you scrubs.

[Soulflame]

Ooo, a poopsocker called me an elitist.  I'm so hurt.

[Jayce]

Ooo, a poopsocker called me an elitist.  I'm so hurt.

Either everyone in the thread is out to get you, or you're coming across like a jackass. Unless you're aiming for b), you could consider it constructive criticism.  Just a thought.

[Ashamanchill]

I don't want to get in the middle here, but I will say I fucking hate HoR already. As a tank, that wave of undead is a fucking pain. Those bastards fucking jump to a new target at the slightest whim.

But yeah, shackle undead for the win.

[Soulflame]

All right.  I'm going to try again.

First off, I apologize for coming across as a jackass.  I thought it would be useful or interesting to include some anecdotal thoughts and experiences on HHoR, but apparently it came across as LOL I R TEH AWESOME.  I'm sorry.  I don't think I'm awesome.

Okay, with that hopefully out of the way.

I personally think HHoR is overtuned for people who need to run it for the gear it drops.

Do you agree (Y/N)?

If not, then why?

[apocrypha]

It's difficult for a healer too. And hard for a DPS. Done it twice now (on normal this is), once as shaman healer, once as shaman DPS, in PUG groups that were OK geared but not massively over-geared. Both times the group wiped 1st try, stopped and planned a bit - prioritising targets mainly - and then succeeded on 2nd try. It requires people to play their characters well - use every cooldown and trinket etc, swap to the right target quickly, manage agro carefully.

It feels to me about right in terms of challenge - harder than (for instance) ToC5 heroic but not stupidly so. I don't like the "hide in a corner to force the ranged DPS to come right too you" trick, that feels cheesy, but it's better than wiping repeatedly  

I personally think HHoR is overtuned for people who need to run it for the gear it drops.

Do you agree (Y/N)?

I think it's borderline. Both the times I ran it I think almost everyone in the group got an upgrade drop. I'd have got 3 if it hadn't been for the "can't roll on cloth" thing. We'd not have managed it if our gear had been significantly worse and if our gear had been much better we'd only have been getting emblems. So I think it's perfect. Factor in the heroic/normal option and you've got a range of challenge and reward that fits what I am seeing (as a casual PUG'er) very well.

[Fabricated]

After getting through the release versions of the ICC5 trilogy I have to say that Blizzard is pretty good at tuning 5-mans at the least. As a warrior tank I hate the fuck out of some the pulls in FoR and PoS with the widely spaced out casters I have to try and corral, but it's a lot of fun and definitely not a cakewalk even if you overgear it. The last wave or so before Falric and Marwyn are pretty fucking crazy.

There is a "stupid mode" for HoR however with tanking in the alcoves where Marwyn and Falric are.

[Ashamanchill]

As soon as I get that damn hilt drop, I'm not setting foot in there again. HoR is the new occulus!

[Soulflame]

ICC 25
- Marrowgar downed after about 6 tries
- Lady Deathwhisper not downed after about 4 tries.

ICC 10
- We managed to make it through gunship, which is probably the best fight in the instance so far.
- Marrowgar - much easier after you've done it a few times
- Deathwhisper - phase 1 is very much about having your RL call out for target switches.
- Gunship - yay jetpacks!

Most of the people who did 10 were also present for 25, so a number of us got to friendly with Ashen Verdict, yay for new rings.


Oh, and my favorite bit, since the heroic mode is baked right into the instance, no more clearing current content 3 or 4 times a week.   

[Morfiend]

Well, we'll never know for certain on that one. You're locked out of the dungeon if you're in mixed blues & greens.  My Horde pally has all of 6 hours at level 80 so the dungeon system tells me "You need better gear" for both ToC and ICC instances.   Oh noes, gear scoring!

No you are not. You are just locked out of using the LFG tool to queue for those dungeons. You could still form a group and fly there.

[Ingmar]

Important undocumented change!  Wyrmrest Temple is now a proper inn, where you go into zzz mode and can logoff immediately!

Sadly it still doesn't seem to have a damn mailbox.

[kildorn]

Important undocumented change!  Wyrmrest Temple is now a proper inn, where you go into zzz mode and can logoff immediately!

Sadly it still doesn't seem to have a damn mailbox.

It's being built in Darnassus's now happy blacksmiths. They have a bit of a backlog.

[sickrubik]

Sadly it still doesn't seem to have a damn mailbox.

No one wants to be the penpal of a dragon. :(

[Musashi]

I personally think HHoR is overtuned for people who need to run it for the gear it drops.

Do you agree (Y/N)?

The only thing that makes it seem over tuned is the possibility of somewhat unhealable damage spikes.  These can be controlled via cc.  Either shackle or freezing shot on the random hunter/mage ranged mob that the tank can't get to, and then the healer doesn't have to heal himself or someone else on top of the tank.  (Freezing shot made me look like a super hero here.)  If no hunter/priest, I'm sure other forms of cc will work passably.  I'm thinking repentance or fear.

Other than that, it's pretty much conventional pve principles apply.  Kill the squshy first.  Don't let shit beat on your healer.  Focus fire.  These are all things that in the past have been pretty staple expectations for a high level 5-man - including cc.  But recently, they have not.  Recent 5 man tactics mostly get boiled down because of more effective AoE tanking abilities/classes introduced in this expansion.

So no.  It's not really over tuned.  Of course skill is a factor, and that's relative to individual experience.  But this isn't the hardest this level of content has been in previous iterations.  And when compared with that, it seems to me like it's tuned about right.

[Ingmar]

It is certainly difficult, but not unpossible. The main annoying thing is that the list of CC options that work on undead is pretty short compared to some other mob types. With the lineup we had last night, our main CC options were poly and hex. Doh.

[Ashamanchill]

I personally think HHoR is overtuned for people who need to run it for the gear it drops.

Do you agree (Y/N)?

The only thing that makes it seem over tuned is the possibility of somewhat unhealable damage spikes.  These can be controlled via cc.  Either shackle or freezing shot on the random hunter/mage ranged mob that the tank can't get to, and then the healer doesn't have to heal himself or someone else on top of the tank.  (Freezing shot made me look like a super hero here.)  If no hunter/priest, I'm sure other forms of cc will work passably.  I'm thinking repentance or fear.

Silly Musashi. Ret paladins don't take time out from blindly trying to climb to the top of a dps meter. Not to do something as journeymen as ccing.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It is certainly difficult, but not unpossible. The main annoying thing is that the list of CC options that work on undead is pretty short compared to some other mob types. With the lineup we had last night, our main CC options were poly and hex. Doh.

Stoneclaw/grounding totem would probably help mitigate some damage from the caster mobs, grounding especially. Also bloodlusting on the last wave...i was with a shaman who went the entire instance without bloodlust, saving it like it was some precious jewel. It was the same in toc too when the black knight was raping groups left and right until they realizing they might need to use a cooldown. cooldown?! what's that?! 

[Zetor]

I've tanked H-HOR in a cross-server pug on my "welfare geared" feral drood with only a hunter and a dps DK in the group having done it before. We wiped enough times to hit a 65-gold repair bill, but after that we just set the DK to 'offtank' mages, the hunter to trap enemy hunters, use the pet as an emergency OT and MD crap onto me, and things suddenly went much better. Keeping aggro wasn't even the real problem, not getting gibbed was... I had to kite enemy groups a few times while tanking (by charging a caster) to give time for the healer to top me off. Another memorable moment was the same pug in the pit of saron, where the healer got gibbed by a frostbolt with the end boss at 5% and enraged, and I had to kite him over a frost puddle just long enough to get a combat rez off.

All in all, I really like the new instances, they definitely need more awareness from EVERYONE (not just healer and tank). (Also, I think the final HOR event needs benny hill music in the background... badly.)

[Fabricated]

I recommend killing the shadowy mercenaries first when you get them in HoR. They like to stun the tank then shadowstep to nearly instagib other party members. After that, mages, priests, then whatever else. The riflemen are annoying but not really deadly if you can decurse.

[Sjofn]

# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Icecrown Citadel raid dungeons has been reduced.
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Frozen Halls 5 player dungeons has been reduced.

Haha, no shit. For the hour or so I was on last night (mostly to say hello to guildies but also managed to kick Anub'rekhan's beetle-arse for the raid weekly*), someone got a Dalaran-wide shout-out for creating Quel'Delar every 2 minutes.

Bastards. God forbid they wait to do it until I get the drop. 

For real, right?

[Musashi]

At the rate I was seeing them, it felt like everyone would have their hilt within the next two weeks.  I don't know how bad it got nerfed, but it probably won't be long before everyone has one still.  I was also seeing a shitload of random drops of trash.  Seemed too good to be true.  I mean, most of them were ilvl 200 pieces of shit.  But some, like me, got lucky and got a nice boe drop worth about 2k.