Patch 3.3

[Sjofn]

It's still basically a root, so DR should apply. If you'd rather nerf the 90% part down to a normal snare speed, that would work too.

[Fordel]

It's better then a root, since it doesn't have a damage cap.


If they turned Entangling Roots into 'Chains of Ivy', Moonkin representation would skyrocket overnight!

[Ingmar]

Yeah, DKs are still good at peeling.  That's pretty much the only thing left they excel at in an arena setting (which is what it sounds like you're talking about).  But CoI can still be dispelled if you're having that much trouble with it in the arenas, and as much as people like to imply it can be infinitely reapplied it does still cost a Frost rune every time it's used.  It can also be resisted (Frost Mages especially can do that a lot) and for extra hilarity, reflected.  It's not like their aren't counters to it out there.

Nah they still do plenty of damage, are very resilient, and the popular arena spec in particular, unholy, has a ton of control above and beyond just CoI.

If we're talking about things that cause me *personally* a lot of problems playing against DKs, its the self-healing that needs to be nerfed.  

[Fordel]

I've watched so many games where he loses 1v1 to a DK due to that.

[Nevermore]

How are DKs healing that much against you when you have Mortal Strike?  Warriors always gave me the most trouble of the melee classes because of that, even more than Rogues.  I realize part of my problem is my refusal to spec into Unholy because of my irrational hatred of that tree (which is why I haven't bothered PvPing for months now anyway), but that shouldn't have any effect on healing.

As for CoI, the only way it's 'basically a root' is if you're spamming it literally every couple of seconds.  If that warrants putting it on DR then just make the damned thing a real root.  Somehow I think that would make it even more annoying, though.

[Merusk]

but we're in a great spot for raids

That's an understatement.  Protadins are so absurdly and obviously overpowered compared to other tanks by every single possible metric that the only remaining explanation is that Blizzard is trying to see how overpowered they have to make them to get top guilds to abandon the warrior tanks they've been using for 5 years.

Didn't someone here previously link a Tankspot article wherein Ghostwalker said this was exactly what was going on?  They wanted to see more Druid and Pally tanks, so they are deliberatly overpowered when compared to Warriors and DKs - with DKs being constantly  nerfed because there's too damn many of them. The same thing that happened to Hunters prior to WLK.

[Merusk]

I totally agree about Warrior's though. Bunch of pricks they are.

Agreed.  A lot of this issue is oldschool rollover from EQ and previous games that's carried forward by the current Warrior community.

[Sjofn]

How are DKs healing that much against you when you have Mortal Strike?

Ingmar PvPs as a protection build. It is surprisingly not shitty.


Also, you CAN spam CoI every few seconds, or at least often enough that you can use it to do what a root does, which is make the target stop moving until you can kick their ass in melee. It would be a little different if DKs were casters, as then they would be using the root to keep people away from them (in which case, yes, it's not actually that great), but given it is for closing distances and used more as a "hold still you asshole," it is essentially a root.

Would it be more annoying as a regular snare? I'm not sure. It would probably still be annoying, as it would be a ranged snare, but it would smell less like total bullshit.

[Nonentity]

I just gave up PvPing in WoW, even though supposedly warriors are okay now? I don't know.

I miss Arms warriors. I have to be Fury these days to be competitive in PvE.

On an unrelated note, I always have to go to the WoW forum to find you guys.

[Fordel]

Chains is actually really great at keeping people away too, since it doesn't have a target limit either. For the first 5 seconds of the spell effect, your target will have moved all of 3-5 yards. I wish my root worked like chains.




Non - Arms Warriors are dominant, have been for awhile again. Weapon dependent as always though.

[Nonentity]

It's a tossup. At the top top top of the tree, Arms can't compete with Fury. But for middleground, an Arms warrior can beat a Fury warrior, it's true.

As far as PvP is concerned, yeah, Arms always has and always will be the PvP spec of choice.

[Ingmar]

Yeah I PVP/arena as a special protection spec:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Doomhammer&n=Thorgrim&group=2

Mind you I've barely done any arena this season so far, but DKs don't seem to have changed much from my side of things. I could go arms, but protection typically serves me better in 2v2 arena, particularly with a moonkin partner.

[Fordel]

He pretty much carries me, it's sad.

[Soulflame]

Looks like we're getting raid quests with ICC, happy days.

You mean goddammittofuckinghell days, right?  Right?

Because I know my entire guild was just needing a reason to go back into naxx and kill mobs we stopped caring about well over eight months ago.  Much less Malygos.  Yes, I want a three phase fight that culminates in a buggy ass vehicle phase.  Even though I'm in the #2 or #3 guild hordeside, I've downed the 25 man version of Malygos exactly once.  We tried to do it a second time, and gave up after too many tries where idiots wouldn't move, died to fire, and my personal favorite, we got to phase three, Malygos broke the platform, and we all plunged past the drakes to our deaths.  We've never been back to Malygos since that.

Wait.  That's completely wrong.  I actually don't want that.

Yes, I know, 10 man versions.  I'll probably end up doing those, as we can't get enough interest in guild to do much more than one or two heroic dailies, despite them being free emblems.

[Musashi]

You're too close.  Back away from the keyboard.

[WindupAtheist]

They've pretty much shitcanned the idea of raiding gear progression in the "Hey newbie, want to see Icecrown? Okay go start Naxx and we'll see you in six months!" sense. From what I understand, come 3.3 you'll be able to pick up Naxx 25 level gear in a five-man normal dungeon. With that being the case, they apparently feel they need a reason for people to continue running the early-expansion raids, and quests are it.

I can't say I disagree with their reasoning. Not that I'll bother to do anything except grab whatever the new shiny heroic weapon is for my pally.

[Ingmar]

Its also a way to deliver more badges for people to gear up with who aren't ready to go right into Icecrown. Full approval here.

[Delmania]

Good stuff.  I like how Blizzard is trying to make content accessible to anyone.

[Thrawn]

Good stuff.  I like how Blizzard is trying to make content accessible to anyone.

I think it's also likely to help people get bored of the game quicker since it's so much easier for everyone to "see everything".

[Nebu]

I think it's also likely to help people get bored of the game quicker since it's so much easier for everyone to "see everything".

Why will that make them quit faster than the barrier to raiding? 

Being able to get decent purple gear on a casual schedule will do nothing but help the game.  People give up when they have nothing to do.  If you're not someone with a raiding guild handy, this happens pretty quickly already.  Now they have the option to keep improving their toon in a more user-friendly manner.  This may do a lot to encourage alts which will also keep people around. 

The changes seem like a huge win to me. 

[Gobbeldygook]

They're just applying the PVP model of advancement to PVE.  In PVP, you can get the gear that's two seasons behind by afking in AV and the gear that's a season behind by not being terrible.  In PVE, you can get the gear that's two 'seasons' behind (ulduar-25 normal) by facerolling through heroics and one season behind (ulduar-hard mode) by not being terrible (toc 10/25 normal).  I wouldn't be completely surprised if they changed all heroics to start dropping triumph badges in 3.3.

[Fabricated]

They've pretty much shitcanned the idea of raiding gear progression in the "Hey newbie, want to see Icecrown? Okay go start Naxx and we'll see you in six months!" sense. From what I understand, come 3.3 you'll be able to pick up Naxx 25 level gear in a five-man normal dungeon. With that being the case, they apparently feel they need a reason for people to continue running the early-expansion raids, and quests are it.

I can't say I disagree with their reasoning. Not that I'll bother to do anything except grab whatever the new shiny heroic weapon is for my pally.

Actually you'll be getting Ulduar 10 level gear from the normal icecrown 5-man, and the gear from the heroic version will be the same quality as the current bleeding edge 10 man. A gear reset from a 5-man! Blizzard rules, this is a godsend for my guild's new players and people who are coming back after RL stuff (like oh, the two officers in
my guild who are in Iraq right now).

[dd0029]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/icecrown-citadel-the-frozen-throne/

I think the fantasy name generator seems to have gotten stuck on "Batman".  Professor Putricide and Ashen Verdict?

[WindupAtheist]

A certain middlecore level of raider might be more inclined to quit because they've seen everything. (Hardcore enough that they want to see everything, but not so hardcore that seeing it all is a given anyway.) But those people are a subset of a subset, and easily made up for by casual raiders who would otherwise be stuck running heroics until they get bored and quit.

Edit:

Actually you'll be getting Ulduar 10 level gear from the normal icecrown 5-man, and the gear from the heroic version will be the same quality as the current bleeding edge 10 man.

So one can theoretically go from heroic Icecrown 5-man straight into 10-man Arthas? I see what they did there.

[Sjofn]

Good stuff.  I like how Blizzard is trying to make content accessible to anyone.

I think it's also likely to help people get bored of the game quicker since it's so much easier for everyone to "see everything".

Yeah no. Prior to this approach, guilds like mine who can do 10 mans but not 25s were stuck with fuck-all to do once our one 10 man was cleared (and prior to THAT, in Vanilla, we had NOTHING AT ALL to do besides the same ol' 5 mans). We could do Zul'Aman if we really wanted, but the time investment for us was not worth it until it got nerfed. Now we have an actual damn progression, and actually have a hope of seeing the last boss of the expansion. Without that, I would've been bored months and months ago, because I would know there was no way I was going to see the "end."

It might hurt the hardcore epeen knowing plebes like me might actually see shit, but there are waaaaaay more people like me playing the game.

[Gobbeldygook]

We could do Zul'Aman if we really wanted, but the time investment for us was not worth it until it got nerfed.

ZA was never nerfed, unless you mean the pre-WOTLK patch that nerfed every raid to the ground.

[Sjofn]

We could do Zul'Aman if we really wanted, but the time investment for us was not worth it until it got nerfed.

ZA was never nerfed, unless you mean the pre-WOTLK patch that nerfed every raid to the ground.

That was what I meant, yes.

[Soulflame]

ZA did experience a couple nerfs, IIRC.  Mostly to take bear runs from OMG IMPOSSIBLE to just barely doable.

I have no problem with gear resets, I just find it annoying that I have to try to drag a bunch of reluctant idiots into old content in order to get badges for current gear.

Stupid lazy players.  /grumble

Having said that, we'll probably end up seeing how much of it we can five man.   

[Musashi]

Blizzard has been resurrecting, refocusing, and outright redoing old content in an effort to make it relevant/necessary for as long as I can remember.  It's not out of the blue.  Just embrace it, and realize that for better or worse, this is one of the tools they use to keep people playing.  Expect it to continue.  Personally I just view it as one of those things where they can't always please all the people all the time.  Sometimes you're going to fall into the category of people who aren't pleased.

[Selby]

Blizzard has been resurrecting, refocusing, and outright redoing old content in an effort to make it relevant/necessary for as long as I can remember.

Considering only like 1% of a given server ever got to see Naxx-40 and very few guilds were clearing Blackwing Lair and AQ-40 combined with the insane keying requirements of TBC, I welcome recycling content to be able to see it without all of the old cockblocks that were in place years ago.

[Paelos]

Redoing AQ40 would be horrid.

Let's just toss that out of the equation right now if possible. Don't remake mistakes.

[Rasix]

AQ40 had what, 3 different guild breaker bosses?

FUN TIMES.  AQ20 wasn't all bad, however.

[Shrike]

AQ20 was damned fun. AQ40...not so much.

I enjoy large raids, but it really is easier on everyone involved in 10 mans. Less wear and tear on the guild administration is a good thing. New 5mans with progression loot? Yeah, sign me up. I stil enjoy 25s, but what I really play these games for is to grow and fiddle with my character. Anything that allows me to do this more easily is a good thing.

[bhodi]

Hey guys, let's go farm marudon for nature resist blues and greens!

Oh it'll take 25 minutes to get there since you have to take a boat and fly across an entire continent, then across the entire desolace zone from north-west to south-east, and if you want to run it more than once, you'll have to hearth since there's no way out of the final area, it'll be fun!

While we're there, we can finally get that enchantment trainer for our guildie firiend, too!

[Selby]

Redoing AQ40 would be horrid.

Well obviously.  Guild destroying bosses and encounters, I *never* understood why it had to be so hard.

Hey guys, let's go farm marudon for nature resist blues and greens!

Combine that with "farm MC and Ony for months to get materials to make Onyxia Scale Cloak to even stand a chance in the next progression of the raid (BWL)" and you have a recipe for fail.  Luckily the Shadowbreath doesn't exist anymore.  I did BWL the other night and can only imagine how painful it would have been coordinating 40 people through that at 60.  Some of the mobs and bosses had hit points similar to Naxx-25 bosses and mobs.  At least with Mara you could run it over and over again with 2-3 people at 60 unlike MC where you had to gather 39 of your best personal friends a few times a week for the *chance* that you would be "approved" by the guild for the materials for your cloak and fire resist gear to craft if they actually dropped...

I still run into people who insist the old 40-man days were the best and how they wish they were still around.  And how Blizz should have gone to 60 and 80 man raids... I don't understand those people.