Guild Wars 2

[Typhon]

I'm convinced he's trolling.  Especially since this is the GUILD WARS 2 thread.

[pxib]

Indeed. Diminishing returns and cosmetic enhancements are proven and successful commodities.

The prestige emotes in Guild Wars were quite popular for e-peen flaunting. Also the hard to reach costumes. People who work hard (and/or waste a lot of time) get to look their own special kind of awesome, even if their stats are the same as the rubes'.

[Murgos]

...why should you get the same rewards as people who have to coordinate dozens of individuals in completing a complex multi-stage task?

Because you'll retain more subscribers?

Anecdotally, the big companies who can afford studies into what contributes most to player retention and new subscriptions and who are on their third gen MMO don't seem to agree.

[Murgos]

Because my money is just as good as theirs.

But your effort is worth more?  This is what you are saying with that argument.  That you, being a better person than the people in the raid guild, deserve to be rewarded more for your effort than they do for theirs?

[Murgos]

Because it's just a game and not work?

Right?  Games have winners and losers?  No idea what you're talking about.

[Lantyssa]

Well, Guild Wars 2 seems to disagree with your (and their supposed) assessment.  We'll see who is right in the end.

[Sky]

Murgos is trying to out-Bruce Bruce. Did that really need three posts?

Then again, what do us mouth-breathers know, right?

Oh, and you're sounding like an entitled twat.

[Mosesandstick]

Can't we be civil and discuss that GW2 might be targetting a different segment of the audience than other MMOs?

[SnakeCharmer]

Oh, and you're sounding like an entitled twat.

To be fair, even though I'm in agreement with the following statement, so does this:

Because my money is just as good as theirs.

Truth is, nobody is right about this and nobody is wrong.  Just got to meet in the middle.

[Typhon]

[snip] Just got to meet in the middle.

Not really.  There are enough games in the market for you to pick you preference.  Want gear to matter?  Play WoW, Vanguard, EQ, there are many options.  Want to not be blocked from content and PvP by gear only obtainable by enforced grouping?  Play GW 2.  Everyone gets to be right, no need to meet in the middle.

Sorry.  I didn't mean to distract from Murgos' trolling.  Carry on.

[Sky]

I wasn't talking about the group v solo issue, I was talking about the constant framing as:

winners and losers

being a better person...deserve to be rewarded

mouth breather.

That kind of twattery where the implied thought is that people who can put up with the bullshit for a raid are somehow better people. Weighing the argument like that is utter douchebaggery.

I like Murgos, but enough of that shit. You want to debate group content vs solo content, fine. But leave your superiority complex at the door, thanks.

[Sophismata]

Anecdotally, the big companies who can afford studies into what contributes most to player retention and new subscriptions and who are on their third gen MMO don't seem to agree.

Hasn't WoW, the only 'successful' MMO after EverQuest (in the sense of meeting or exceeding its publisher's expectations for profit), continually reduced the requirements for raiding and continually provided more options for obtaining 'loot' outside of raiding? Given the continued (and increasing) successes of WoW, doesn't that say something about subscriber retention having nothing to do with kowtowing to the elitist?

[UnSub]

I'd like a link to the anecdotal evidence, but I don't think it would surprise people that different MMOs cater to different groups, so what might retain players in one title won't retain them in another.

From a content point of view, you need to give something to the elitists - which also gives the non-elite something to aspire to - but you also have to create content that the non-elite enjoy too. And release it at the same time. Major content updates that only focus on one group tend to alienate the other groups who are left twiddling their thumbs / replaying old content.

[Zetor]

Guild Wars (1) has elite pvp (and pve, iirc?) guilds, even though there's nothing to gain from hardmode pve or high-end pvp other than titles and swanky-looking armor with the same stats as average joe armor from the first level 20 outpost.

[Sky]

Yeah, because solo players don't want swanky-looking armor. 

[Zetor]

You can just opt to buy the armor instead (since it only takes tradable crafting materials and gold)... and the most expensive piece [obsidian armor] is ugly as sin anyway. :p

My point was that vanity rewards [titles and such] are fine as a 'differentiator' if they want hardcore players to feel special.

[Sky]

Or, you know, stop rewarding "hardcore" players. There are games for that. And hardcore really translates into 'willing to grind' or group/raid content. I guess since we're beating the horse, I could drag out the old equine corpse that says in many ways soloing content is more difficult than taking it with a group, since you don't have the trinity to back you up (even npc help won't be as good as having players fill those roles, though I didn't play GW1).

 

But srsly, so tired of 'grind = reward'.

[Nebu]

But srsly, so tired of 'grind = reward'.

I'm also getting increasingly bored with time = power as well.  I'm all for character development, but I'd rather that time = more choices. 

[Lantyssa]

Or, you know, stop rewarding "hardcore" players. There are games for that. And hardcore really translates into 'willing to grind' or group/raid content. I guess since we're beating the horse, I could drag out the old equine corpse that says in many ways soloing content is more difficult than taking it with a group, since you don't have the trinity to back you up (even npc help won't be as good as having players fill those roles, though I didn't play GW1).

Except GW allows you to have henchman, and with Nightfall heroes.  With their next update your entire party can be made up of heroes, with challenge missions even allowing you to put heroes in all 11 slots.

Now GW2 isn't going to have heroes, but events will scale to the number of people there.  Dungeons always drop an armor token.  If a creature drops an item, everyone gets a drop.

I think they have the soloers and casuals covered.

Dungeons might require a group.  We'll have to see how they work.  Given the rest of their systems that may be okay though.

[Sobelius]

Part of me wonders if the whole time/grind=better reward thing isn't at its heart a much deeper issue. The Christian biblical parable about the workers in the vineyard came to my mind, as it showcases a group of folks who felt that those who had worked "longer" should be paid "more". Fortunately, in game worlds, when it comes to fun and achievements, you don't always have to pair reward with difficulty/complexity.

Personally, I prefer the reward of the game to be a "fun experience" instead of "pixellated stats/money". Many times the early part of a game is the most enjoyable to me because it usually feels less like work and more like play.

[Malakili]

Part of me wonders if the whole time/grind=better reward thing isn't at its heart a much deeper issue. The Christian biblical parable about the workers in the vineyard came to my mind, as it showcases a group of folks who felt that those who had worked "longer" should be paid "more". Fortunately, in game worlds, when it comes to fun and achievements, you don't always have to pair reward with difficulty/complexity.

Personally, I prefer the reward of the game to be a "fun experience" instead of "pixellated stats/money". Many times the early part of a game is the most enjoyable to me because it usually feels less like work and more like play.

The real problem is that these games are intended to be played for months or years on end.  There isn't any grind in games you are supposed to play once because it doesn't matter if you put it down in a few weeks when its finished.  If everyone could get what they wanted solo/easily, the retention would drop dramatically in my opinion.   The % of people who end game raid has always been kind of small compared to the people who don't, but the other side of it is that the people who don't get reinforcement of the fact that there is tons more out there in front of them, even if in reality they probably won't ever do it.

[Sobelius]

... but the other side of it is that the people who don't get reinforcement of the fact that there is tons more out there in front of them, even if in reality they probably won't ever do it.

So much of the fun for the non-end-game-raider types is dependent upon constantly looking at the carrots dangling in front of them? Maybe, but even that won't keep someone around if another game comes in with equally good carrots obtainable for less 'work'.

I always find myself back at the place of seeing MMOs as attracting/losing players for lots of different reasons. Much depends on what the player wanted from the game in the first place and, kind of like musical taste, what experiences hit the right pleasure centers in the brain and signal that something is "fun" or "what I like and want more of".

[Malakili]

... but the other side of it is that the people who don't get reinforcement of the fact that there is tons more out there in front of them, even if in reality they probably won't ever do it.

So much of the fun for the non-end-game-raider types is dependent upon constantly looking at the carrots dangling in front of them?

Thats not really what I said.  So much of what keeps them playing long term is that.  Whats "fun" might get you into the game, or what gets your to resub if you've cancelled, but I don't think that most people play MMOs, especially DIKU MMOs, long term because its just so damned entertaining to play.  Probably that any playing with friends are the two major factors.  Without something to aspire to, and people to help you get there, these games break down pretty quick in my opinion.

[Gunzwei]

Dungeons might require a group.  We'll have to see how they work.  Given the rest of their systems that may be okay though.

PC gamer did an article on dungeons awhile back http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/10/19/guild-wars-2-exclusive-dungeon-reveals/. Also gathering nodes as well are per individual and not shared. So if I mine a node it disappears for me but is still there for everyone else.

Yeah, because solo players don't want swanky-looking armor. 

I played GW1 primarily solo and had about 20 sets of prestige armor across all my characters. Any of the elite missions I wanted to do I pugged just fine (many times with most the group not speaking the same language). As someone who played GW for years I just see GW2 taking the good parts of GW (exploration/community/art) and dumping the shit parts of GW (super specific team builds, no jump/swim, healers).

[Stormwaltz]

Hey, will I create any issues for myself by starting with Nightfall rather than Factions? One of the Nightfall female Ranger hair styles is this awesome gypsy/hippie deal. I must have.

Unless there's some way to access another campaign's appearance options that I don't know about.*




*Aside - GW vies with Star Trek Online for "most non/under-documented features."

[Ingmar]

Hey, will I create any issues for myself by starting with Nightfall rather than Factions? One of the Nightfall female Ranger hair styles is this awesome gypsy/hippie deal. I must have.

Unless there's some way to access another campaign's appearance options that I don't know about.*




*Aside - GW vies with Star Trek Online for "most non/under-documented features."

No issues in particular, a Nightfall character can go do (most of) Factions and vice-versa, it just determines which starter experience you'll have basically.

On documentation, GW has (two) giant well-detailed wikis:

wiki.guildwars.com
guildwars.wikia.com

Honestly besides perhaps WoW it is the best-documented MMO I've ever played.

[Ard]

Except GW allows you to have henchman, and with Nightfall heroes.  With their next update your entire party can be made up of heroes, with challenge missions even allowing you to put heroes in all 11 slots.

Wait, sorry to derail, they actually confirmed this when I wasn't looking?  I thought it was still in the "we're seriously thinking about this" phase.  This makes me happy if so.  I hate people with the fire of a thousand starved piranhas.

[Nevermore]

Hey, will I create any issues for myself by starting with Nightfall rather than Factions? One of the Nightfall female Ranger hair styles is this awesome gypsy/hippie deal. I must have.

Unless there's some way to access another campaign's appearance options that I don't know about.*

Not only can you do that, but I'd recommend it so you'll have heroes when you go back to do Factions.

You can change a character's appearance after the fact by talking to an NPC at the Great Temple of Balthazar, but it's a micro-trans you have to pay for.  $9.99 for five appearance change tokens, I think?

[Lantyssa]

Wait, sorry to derail, they actually confirmed this when I wasn't looking?  I thought it was still in the "we're seriously thinking about this" phase.  This makes me happy if so.  I hate people with the fire of a thousand starved piranhas.

Won't know for sure until it's done, but the wiki reads like it's a firm commitment now.

[birdsguts]

No issues. Starting in Nightfall is the way to do it. You only miss trivial "starter" content.

Also, as far as the "full part of heroes" deal? That's confirmed to be coming in after the update that includes dervish changes. Whenever embark beach hits the heroes change should supposedly go live.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Upcoming_changes_and_features

[FatuousTwat]

Also gathering nodes as well are per individual and not shared. So if I mine a node it disappears for me but is still there for everyone else.

Why was it ever anything else? I mean, sure, It's fun to snake people, but it does get tedious after a while (especially if your class doesn't have some kind of speed buff).

[Nevermore]

No issues. Starting in Nightfall is the way to do it. You only miss trivial "starter" content.

Also, as far as the "full part of heroes" deal? That's confirmed to be coming in after the update that includes dervish changes. Whenever embark beach hits the heroes change should supposedly go live.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Upcoming_changes_and_features

The update that includes Dervish changes went live last week, so I guess that means the one with the hero changes is next?

[Lantyssa]

Yep yep!  <bounces>

[Arrrgh]

No issues. Starting in Nightfall is the way to do it. You only miss trivial "starter" content.

Also, as far as the "full part of heroes" deal? That's confirmed to be coming in after the update that includes dervish changes. Whenever embark beach hits the heroes change should supposedly go live.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Upcoming_changes_and_features

Don't you miss out on spells/abilities if you don't have all the games?

[Lantyssa]

There are four sets of skills:  Core, Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall.  (Eye of the North stuff is all racial/reputation based skills)

If you don't own a campaign then, yes, you do not get access to those skills.  If you own it, then the campaign you start in only affect your starting skills.  All can be purchased or captured.  But there are so many, and with the core skills, it's possible to make a viable character no matter which campaigns you own.