Guild Wars 2

[Mrbloodworth]

The "thief" video above shows him 'pew pewing' a mob with all of his shots hitting while he gets the luxury of avoiding most of the return fire.  I don't see how that would work in pvp unless it's a limited avoidance mechanic (meaning there are only a few attacks that can be avoided).  I'm fine with this, just saying that pve and pvp will feel and play very differently if that's the case.

Yeah, like in AOC. You will have Melee dancing, dodging, tumbling all over the place while casters stand around and 1,2,3,1,2,3 and never miss ( Except by dice roll ). Only AOC had really long spells that opened them up for stabbings. But you still have two different games here.

I'm not saying its a bad system. Just that, A MMO needs to come along and pick one and stick with it. What was once a necessity, is now a requirement by players ( Asynchronous combat systems ). Typical MMORPG combat Imparts a measured pace, that is always out of step with movement.

I liked Darkfalls combat ( The core of it ) and I thought Mortal online had something good. Its the rest of those games that detract ( Like horizontal power increases, or RPG stats to negates stats that in turn negate stats ). So, I'm still left waiting for a M&B or Oblivion style combat, or relegated to an indi group doing it, but tossing in throwback features around it that kill it ( Permadeath and ganking is awesome dudes ).

And most of this is because no AAA is going to alienate people that can't be with out a global cooldown.

[Rokal]

Check out TERA if you want to see a game that fully embraces that style of combat.

[Kageru]

Real time combat and targeted ranged abilities can come when they've solved ping, lag, positional uncertainty and make sure the game is ugly enough to run fast on a broad enough range of gamers machines. The MMO model of having large centralised heavy weight servers cannot mimic the game-play of a locally served simple fps which probably has a relatively lightweight server model. Especially once the number of active players climb.

If you want that sort of game-play it's probably more likely to come from FPS games having increasing persistence. And they seem to prefer guns over swords.

[Ingmar]

Check out TERA if you want to see a game that fully embraces that style of combat.

Assuming you can play it for 5 minutes without feeling like you need a shower to wash the creepy off.

[Mrbloodworth]

I was not speaking about TERA, or shooter fast combat. None of my examples would give you that idea.

[caladein]

It's not about "shooter fast combat" but about having projectile modeling at all where the scale of the game creates a trade-off between how movement feels and how accurately you know your own position.

[Zetor]

Pretty much what Kageru said.

Take your dream-design of a '100% twitch' MMO; now add a latency of ~200-300ms to every player interaction and you'll soon find yourself "regressing to the primitive GCD model". And if you're talking about a game where animations are in sync with your attacks, play City of Heroes - in that game everything is 'instant with an uninterruptable animation time'. Even in COH they had to make it so that your attack will hit dudes that were in position when you started the attack (leading to jousting-like tactics - jump in, hit the attack while jumping away, your character will execute the animation while jumping and the bad guy will take damage), or the latency issues would've made it even more of a niche title.

e: what about vindictus etc? Though I never played those so yeah.

[Margalis]

Plenty of FPS games work with hosted servers.

What about MMOs magically increases latency. Like....the speed of light becomes slower when you play one?

[Zetor]

In a FPS you typically have a server close by (in your country / state / whatever) that you can play on. That's usually not the case with a MMOG.

When I play TF2 I only play on Hungarian / Eastern EU servers with <100 (preferably <50) ping, because more than that makes everything way too unresponsive. In MMOs I play on an US server since I'm in an international guild. The most extreme example is WOW (west coast server, 700+ ping), but having 400-500 ping is more likely for east-coast servers. I imagine Australians don't have their own servers in most games, and someone in the midwest will have at least a ~200 latency playing on a west / east coast server. Heck, my guildies living in California (same state as the WOW west coast servers) have reported sustained periods of 100-200 latency, and I don't think that's the fault of the hosting.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yes, keep bringing up games made during the 56k era.

Any way, its possible, and getting more so every day. Really not sure how you guys are getting FPS shooter from M&B, Oblivion, Mortal online, or dead island like combat. We can toss Demon souls in here too.

What about MMOs magically increases latency.

Nothing, other than 56k or low bandwidth limits ( To save money on bandwidth ), and a glut of "skills" that are mostly redundant or unnecessary, including all the RPG like calculations that happen before the client is even informed. Even in the largest battlefield, you are unlikely to see more than a typical FPS on screen at once ( Performance ), let alone be in such proximity that data needs to be sent to your client beyond rough position ( Network ).

A slower combat design, with a more thoughtful, measured damage and blocking system would be needed to go hand and hand with the network code and server structure to support this. Imagine Oblivion or Skyrim like dungeon crawls with your friends ( What mortal online attempted, got mostly right, but what can a group of 20+ that are self funded do in a short time? ).

However, many MMORPG players would be turned off. So no AAA will do this. IMO. There have only been attempts by Indi houses, arguably, successfully as far as the base combat and networking go ( Rest of the game, not so much. Its ALWAYS hampered by some bastard idealism of "hardcore" ). Point being, what was once a limitation, is now part of the core design for many MMO games, not out of necessity, but because that's the template that works, and costs are known. Users also expect it.

TERA is not even close to what I am talking about. Its extremely fast paced, arcade like, stylized combat. In fact, most MMORPG's are likely faster paced that what I am talking about.


GW2 looks like a great game, sorry for the derail. There are lots of things to like about GW2, my comments are unrelated, mostly.

[Zetor]

Actually, now that you put it that way it sounds interesting (esp. if it'd be playable with my usual 400 ping  )... though I gotta say I'm skeptical about blocking systems after playing Champions Online (which soured me pretty badly on the entire thing).

(yea, sorry for perpetuating the derail... OTOH I haven't gotten a confirmation email after I signed up for the beta last week, so /sadface)

[Nebu]

Yeah, like in AOC. You will have Melee dancing, dodging, tumbling all over the place while casters stand around and 1,2,3,1,2,3 and never miss ( Except by dice roll ). Only AOC had really long spells that opened them up for stabbings. But you still have two different games here.

In a game that will attract a pretty solid pvp base, I find this a bit concerning.  Ranged dps is always at an inherent advantage due to latency and circle strafing.  This doesn't seem to help that balance much.  

I'm dying to get my hands on this and look at the subtle things (class balance, utility, interrupts, resource management in prolonged fights, etc.).  PvP in GW seemed so geared toward gimic builds that exploited a particular mechanic that I'm concerned we'll see a repeat in GW2.  It's always tough to have fun and interesting classes while maintaining a solid sense of balance.  The trade-off between dps and survivability is the first thing I'm looking at when I get a chance to play for myself.  

[Crumbs]

The missing puzzle piece in this discussion is game mechanics that have nothing to do with class balance or twitchiness.  The environmental stuff that we can employ in GW2 sounds great.  For example, Crossroads pvp was always fun because, even though I was level 14, I could eventually lure that level 60* to the elite mobs, or have fun wiping the groups at Drek/Vann by taking out the tank. 

In other words, don't make my success rate completely reliant on my gear vs. my opponent's gear.  Give us both some extra tricks to use.  Give a lowbie or undergeared player some way to contribute.

*old reference, but go with me on this

[Outlawedprod]

It's not pure action/fps style gameplay.  Its kind of like a hybrid.

The "thief" video above shows him 'pew pewing' a mob with all of his shots hitting while he gets the luxury of avoiding most of the return fire.  I don't see how that would work in pvp unless it's a limited avoidance mechanic (meaning there are only a few attacks that can be avoided).  I'm fine with this, just saying that pve and pvp will feel and play very differently if that's the case.

My understanding is there is some type of dodge bar that depletes.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge

[Tyrnan]

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/spells-and-their-target-t26493.html?t=26493

I know it's not an official source but I've always found guru pretty accurate about stuff like this. I also definitely remember a developer saying that a large percentage of spell attacks in the game are treated as projectiles (I can't for the life of me remember where I saw/read this though, hence searching produced the above thread), and as such can be dodged, blocked, reflected(), etc just like any other projectile.

Projectiles aim with motion compensation. They don't however auto home. So if you shoot at a moving target and that moving target keeps moving in the same direction you will hit it. If it starts to move in a different direction after you fired your shot then it most likely will miss.

Projectiles also have regular collision detection, so you can intercept them by simply moving into their way to save someone.

So, assuming the above is correct, melee vs caster should be a lot more fun.

[Outlawedprod]

The positional awareness part of this game is going be HILARIOUS....HILARIOUS

Forget awareness even.  The biggest problem with that reviewer video is the moron delcared it tank and spank and then zerged it.  At no point did he show inquisitiveness or the desire to actually figure out how the mechanics of the fight worked. He simply declared it tank and spank and then expended no effort.  Yes man mmorpg gamers will do this and it has become bad habit.  However usually there are other people who test the fight and declare it tank and spank and then people like the reviewer can fight it that way.  Right now you simply have "press" videos like this masquerading as showing you something about the game when all they usually do is end up exposing the reviewer to online trolls.  I'm not a fan at all of gaming streamers like that WoW biscuit guy or whatever his name was but at least some of them have the common courtesy to actually test things.

[Mrbloodworth]

Stuff.

Interesting compromise. Not 100% synchronous, or modeled projectiles, but also not enough to annoy MMORPG fans, the targets will still be hit if they think this is Wow.

Now I want to try it. Part of this is likely the best feature of this title, you can only take so many skills with you. Loading up, and tracking the 60 variations of really just a hand full of "abilities" ( The really is only a handful of true mechanics in MMO's, all variations are just number/resist/timer/effect tweaks ) is overhead.

So yeah, whats that about it not being possible?  

Does the fireball follow the target around like a heat seeking missle, making imposible turns?

No, the fireball goes to the target person 1 aimed at. If the person moves, then he will miss.

Point A to B by time, with collision check during the path. VS LOS check on cast, damage applied Deferred, but calculated, until it reaches target. Show damage.

Good stuff.

[Zetor]

As an aside, this is also how arrow projectiles (and projectile spells) worked in GW1 (except for the body-block stuff) since 2005, AFAIK. Firing a missile at a distant target allowed the target to move out of the way, causing the missile to 'stray' (if the target moved behind LOS) or 'dodge' (if the target changed direction). There were several classes of bows: at the two extremes were flatbows (huge range, fast firing but slow-travelling projectiles) and recurve bows (short range, slow firing but very fast-moving projectiles). There were also a few skills that could alter missile speed.

There was also an entire GW1 arena minigame (one of the festivals, and Dragon Arena) that fully depended on throwing and dodging various kinds of things at each other.

e: see this and this wiki article.
e2: full disclosure - my first GW1 character in 2005 was a ranger. The way projectiles and interrupts worked combined with my 400+ latency caused me to switch to an elementalist and mesmer instead. I guess this means I'm a scrub or something. :p

[Rokal]

A slower combat design, with a more thoughtful, measured damage and blocking system would be needed to go hand and hand with the network code and server structure to support this. Imagine Oblivion or Skyrim like dungeon crawls with your friends ( What mortal online attempted, got mostly right, but what can a group of 20+ that are self funded do in a short time? ).

...

TERA is not even close to what I am talking about. Its extremely fast paced, arcade like, stylized combat. In fact, most MMORPG's are likely faster paced that what I am talking about.

TERA combat is paced slower than that of Skyrim/Oblivion for most classes, which you keep using as an example. The Berserker class in TERA that I linked a video of below has lots of multi-tier charge attacks which is really the only way the class does real damage. The game encourages you to plan your attacks ahead of time so that you can get the maximum charge off possible in your opening window to attack without getting hit by the enemy mid-animation. Fighting BAMs (world elites more or less) reminded me of Dark Souls in that most of your time is spent playing defensively unless you're extremely familiar with what that particular enemy's attacks and tells are. I'm not sure what the combat being stylized has to do with a discussion about the pace and hit detection model of MMO combat.

Embedded youtube links don't seem to play well with linking to specific times so I'd recommend dumping the link into a new window rather than clicking it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIryFCWkQjE&t=3m20s

[Mrbloodworth]

TERA is indeed a MMO that shows that some of the above posted misconceptions are false in this age. However its simply not the combat model I'm talking about. Its extremely arcade based, and stylized.

[Draegan]

I made this chart to help out people see the variety of weapons and their "themes" class by class.  Realize this, these weapons are merely by "theme" and not by hard role.  For example the Warrior's Hammer has some controlling abilities like knock downs and knock backs, cripple and weaken.  I consider this defensive.  The Healing label is not a true "healer" but I thought it was significant to label weapons that allowed for healing allies.

Almost all weapons can be considered offensive, as the majority of them do damage along with other conditions and effects.  Also note, this is not considering healing, utility or elite skills that can be slotted.  These are just weapons only.

Spoiler for Size:

[Furiously]

I read they are going to maybe have 10% damage potions in their store.

[Draegan]

I haven't seen any data on their cash shop, and I don't think they've publicly talked about it either.

[luckton]

http://youtu.be/uPHuaza6sfY

So I watched the above video detailing the Engineer.  It's like someone at ArenaNet said "Man, I love me some Team Fortress 2!  What if we took all nine TF2 classes and then merged them all into one GW2 class?"

And then they fucking did it!   

[Arinon]

Those Yogscast videos have me more excited for a MMO than I have been in years.  I wonder how it will get horribly busted and sap my will to play after a month.

[HaemishM]

That engineer class video looked like a shitton of fun.

[Bungee]

That engineer class video looked like a shitton of fun.

I'm so playing a Necromancer... 

[Sky]

I love Yogs, but I keep thinking Carl Pilkington is going to say something.

I really like the look of the necro, but lots of nice looking classes.

[Lantyssa]

I'm going to have at least four Mains...

[Zetor]

I'm mostly looking at engineer, necro and elementalist now (since they seem to be less ping-reliant than the melee classes, mesmers, and rangers).

All Asura All The Time, obviously. Bookahs need not apply.

[luckton]

I made this chart to help out people see the variety of weapons and their "themes" class by class.  Realize this, these weapons are merely by "theme" and not by hard role.  For example the Warrior's Hammer has some controlling abilities like knock downs and knock backs, cripple and weaken.  I consider this defensive.  The Healing label is not a true "healer" but I thought it was significant to label weapons that allowed for healing allies.

Almost all weapons can be considered offensive, as the majority of them do damage along with other conditions and effects.  Also note, this is not considering healing, utility or elite skills that can be slotted.  These are just weapons only.

Spoiler for Size:

I liked your chart, certainly a lot more than the top comment reply on Reddit where you posted this as well 

Question: So Rogues are the only prof. that bring damage-only to the table?

[Dren]

I'm going to have at least four Mains...

Gotta have them all...yes we do!

[caladein]

Question: So Rogues are the only prof. that bring damage-only to the table?

Depends on what their stolen weapon outlay turns out to be.

[Typhon]

I thought there were no healers in this game, wtf?!  Am I reading that weapon chart wrong somehow?  Please say yes.

[Fordel]

You're not spamming heal spells or anything.