PvP for Dummies

[Sheepherder]

So... since PvP is the last set of achievements I have to accomplish and do it mostly solo, what advice would you give for a mage?  The last time I PvP'd was back in vanilla when you wanted to grind out rep in AV for the nifty purples and mount in addition to maintaining that Seargent rank.  Obviously resilience is now important, but should I just give up on a mage ever being anything but free honor for other people or would I be able to decently compete?

Frost > Arcane > Fireball > Frostfire (lolbad)

The blue craftable pvp cloth is your friend if you don't have epics.  Arcane is the build of choice if you want pvp and pve in the same build.

[Nebu]

Played in the BG's and WG the past three days.  I'm learning quite a lot and doing better thanks to the suggestions here.  I picked up a pair of gloves from the honor merchant in Stormwind immediately since that was the only slot I could find crafted pvp stuff for.  I'm going to buy my purge trinket with WG points as soon as I have enough (only up to 10). 

I have blown al of my cash on armor and a darkmoon: berserker trinket (which is wonderful!) so haven't had enough to buy a second spec page.  I've been playing as BM and there are some plusses to it.  My pet is a Wyyvern that has a ranged dd with a 5s snare on it.  It works great for kiting in conjunction with frost trap and concussion.  Sadly, I seem to be a punching bag for warriors, rogues, and paladins.  When confronted with any of those classes, it seems that no matter how well I play it that I'm toast. 

I'm looking at speccing MM once my gear gets looking solid.  If I'm going to be a glass cannon, I want to play the part.  I also like the ability to not only mana tap, but also decrease the rate of heals on my target.   

[Nevermore]

Pretty much all of my high level PvP experience comes from the viewpoint of melee characters so I've been wanting to get a ranged character I'm comfortable with up to higher level for a change of pace. 

One thing I'm learning though is you can't really use lower level BGs to get an idea of how a class will play at higher levels.  Sure this is also true to an extent in PvE as well, but some classes change so much in PvP as they get higher in level that you just can't use the lower levels to get an idea if that class is the right fit. 

Mage is a perfect example of this.  Mage was my first choice to try for a caster class because on paper Frost seems to fit my play style very well.  Lots of CC and some survivability.  But at lower levels, Mages suuuuuuck.  Now, I'm not the world's best player but I'm fairly competent and I've been able to hold my own reasonably well in PvP with other classes.  And I realize there's a learning curve involved with any new class, and some can be much steeper than others.  But under level 40 Mages are burdened with the following disadvantages I just have trouble overcoming:

• Low survivability - Wards are only helpful basically against other Mages and the Mana shield not only doesn't absorb much damage, but it also eats up your mana at a fast rate.  Frost Armor has the built in snare but then every melee class has a way to either snare you as well or remove snares from themselves (or both) so that's generally a wash unless you Blink, but I try to save Blinks for the inevitable stun that every class has.  Frost Nova is a great help, though.
• Mana inefficient - I'm always running out of mana.  Always.
• Low damage - This was one of the bigger disappointments.  Frost Bolts hit like wet noodles, which leads to having to cast a lot of them which leads to running out of mana and having to stand in place too much.  Shatter comboes seem to be few and far between.
• Long ass cast times - This is the most frustrating.  Snare or not, Frost Bolt doesn't hit hard enough to justify taking so long to cast, especially with so many other classes that have faster casting nukes and/or heals.  There are also no talents that provide passive pushback reduction for casting when you're being hit.  Icy Veins helps a bit but with the long cooldown it's not up nearly enough.  Long cast times means standing in place for too long which leads to death.

Now a lot of this stuff looks like it'll get better as a Mage levels up.  40 looks to be huge for a Frost Mage since you finally get Ice Barrier, which all by itself helps to alleviate problems with survivability and pushback issues.  It could possibly be the single biggest turning point for a Frost mage, at least the way things look on paper.  If Ice Barrier turns out to be a disappointment, then late bloomer or not Frost Mage probably isn't the class for me.

As for the other problems, mana looks like it'll be less of an issue as gear gets better and more talents are taken.  Damage will hopefully go up as it becomes possible to stack more spellpower.  The one issue that looks like it's insurmountable, at least until close to 80 when haste can finally be stacked, is the cast time issue.  In this I'd love to hear the opinions a high level Frost Mage.  How do you overcome the long Frost Bolt cast time?  I've experimented with using the level 1 Frost Bolt with its fast cast time just for applying the snare (and hopefully the all too infrequent Freeze proc) but that's extrodinarily mana inefficient.

At the risk of making this post even more of a novel, I would like to say that my experience with a low level Warlock has been the exact opposite of the Mage.  Warlock survivability is very high (Void Sac, Drain Life) and damage is quickly applied (two instant DoTs and a quick casting third DoT).  Ironically I expect Warlocks to actually scale up worse than most classes, at least relative to their power at low level.  A lot of new abilities that Warlocks receive get added to the different pets, which means choices between CC (Succubus), survivability (Void) or counter abilities (Fel Hunter).  High level Warlocks can be very effective from what I've seen, though.

I guess my point to all of this, besides venting some Frost frustration and asking for Frost advice, is that it's not easy figuring out what class is the right fit when you can't really get an idea of how a class plays first-hand without committing to leveling up all the way to 80.  Elemental Shaman is another class I'm wanting to try in PvP but it also looks like another very late bloomer (Lava Burst at 75, Hex at 80).  Luckily I want to level up my Shaman anyway.

[Vash]

Played in the BG's and WG the past three days.  I'm learning quite a lot and doing better thanks to the suggestions here.  I picked up a pair of gloves from the honor merchant in Stormwind immediately since that was the only slot I could find crafted pvp stuff for.  I'm going to buy my purge trinket with WG points as soon as I have enough (only up to 10). 

I have blown al of my cash on armor and a darkmoon: berserker trinket (which is wonderful!) so haven't had enough to buy a second spec page.  I've been playing as BM and there are some plusses to it.  My pet is a Wyyvern that has a ranged dd with a 5s snare on it.  It works great for kiting in conjunction with frost trap and concussion.  Sadly, I seem to be a punching bag for warriors, rogues, and paladins.  When confronted with any of those classes, it seems that no matter how well I play it that I'm toast. 

I'm looking at speccing MM once my gear gets looking solid.  If I'm going to be a glass cannon, I want to play the part.  I also like the ability to not only mana tap, but also decrease the rate of heals on my target.   

I would really recommend Survival for pvp, even now in crappy gear.  It's dps is just as good if not superior to MM and BM (explosive shot being magic dmg isn't mitigated by the high armor of most mele classes, especially if you run into tank spec'd players in BG's). 

The main reason to go Survival though is it enhances all of your baseline utility spells/abilities while adding several more, all without sacrificing any dps.

It enhances your traps with reduced cd's and additional CC if you spec entrapment (even in it's nerfed current form it is still useful).

It reduces the cd on disengage letting you get out of mele and gain range more often.

It boosts you health and converts a % of health into attack power, very helpful since you will be stacking tons of stamina in pvp gear often at the expense of better dps, this gives you the best of both worlds.

The usefulness of Scatter Shot and Wyvern Sting is pretty much immeasurable for pvp and is one of the main reasons Survival is a step above MM and BM spec for pvp.  Adding two additional CC tools on fairly short cooldowns to your arsenal simply can't be matched by the other two specs.

Even in crap gear, the combination of Pet, Traps, Wyvern Sting, Scatter Shot, Mortal Strike debuff from aimed shot, Detterence, and Disengage all make for at the very least a major annoyance.  With better gear and improved skills this quickly becomes a major headache and major pvp force.

[Vash]

I guess my point to all of this, besides venting some Frost frustration and asking for Frost advice, is that it's not easy figuring out what class is the right fit when you can't really get an idea of how a class plays first-hand without committing to leveling up all the way to 80. 

Mages in general and especially for pvp are pretty late bloomers, unless they are heavily twinked or you happen to be a kiting god (rank 1 frostbolt and cone of cold).  This is especially true of frost due mainly to the issues you brought up.

Level 40 and Ice barrier is a key turning point for a frost mage, especially when you get shattered barrier as well since that will help to produce a lot more shatter combo setups and help keep you away from mele.

Level 50 is another key milestone when you get your water elemental.  Not only is it's damage very respectable but you get a ranged targetable frost nova for even more shatter opportunities and kiting help.

60-70 is really the biggest turning point, moving you into your endgame playstyle, and where a frost mage makes exponential leaps in power.  The major reason for this is Ice Lance which makes major changes to your playstyle.  You're no longer sitting around trying to chain cast frostbolts, instead your only casting them as openers or when you have plenty of room and/or want to go for a huge shatter combo.  Ice lance gives you true mobility w/o making major damage sacrifices and it's basically the most efficient mage damage spell as well.  It makes your shatters better as well since now you can actually do combos by casting  it immediately after a frostbolt.

The synergy of fingers of frost and brain freeze really start to take effect in that level range as well.

Pre-40 your relying on Frost armor + frostbite + permafrost to make you the most annoying snare/root machine in the game with polymorph for additional annoyance, but the damage and survivability to back it up isn't really there yet.  With twink gear you can boost your damage and overcome the survivability hurdle somewhat, but barring that you basically have to accept your role as a CC/support class which doesn't really work too well in disorganized Pugs.

[Nevermore]

Thanks for that.  Even though I could see how things should improve at higher levels, it was still getting a bit disheartening being such a punching bag where I'm at now.  It's good to read someone with firsthand knowledge saying things should eventually get even better than I thought.  For the cast time issue, Ice Lance was the missing ingredient I was overlooking.  Am I reading it correctly that it's an instant with the only cooldown being the GCD?

[Nebu]

Even in crap gear, the combination of Pet, Traps, Wyvern Sting, Scatter Shot, Mortal Strike debuff from aimed shot, Detterence, and Disengage all make for at the very least a major annoyance.  With better gear and improved skills this quickly becomes a major headache and major pvp force.

I had considered this.  Survival seems very much like my DAoC hunter in playstyle.  Sadly, I've not played the survival tree at all since hitting 80 and am pretty ignorant about it.  I guess I'll head over to elitest jerks and get myself an education.   I can say that BM sure feels weak in terms of both cc and utility.  I like the fact that my pet is more robust, but hate being reliant on the pet for my escape.  I also have to confess that I often forget to use disengage as much as I should, so many of my deaths come at the expense of my own newness to WoW pvp.  I'm learning... it's only been a few days.

[Vash]

Not sure how robust Eliteist Jerks is with the PvP aspects of WoW, if you just want a quick look at the specs some top PvP hunters use you can head over to Arenajunkies.com and check out the top rated Hunters.  No idea how helpful the forums there would be for you to look over, would most likely depend on your tolerance level for leet speak and trolling.

[K9]

Imitating top-ranked people is a very hit and miss exercise, as they often have some very odd specs that are tuned for high-end arenas.

[Selby]

In this I'd love to hear the opinions a high level Frost Mage.  How do you overcome the long Frost Bolt cast time?  I've experimented with using the level 1 Frost Bolt with its fast cast time just for applying the snare (and hopefully the all too infrequent Freeze proc) but that's extrodinarily mana inefficient.

What I always did was, if I can get the jump on someone I would frost bolt them, then if they were frozen repeatedly Ice Lance them (triple damage vs. frozen, no cast time).  Frost nova, repeat ice lance technique.  Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze are also great talents as well, extra damage and free insta-cast fireballs can really extend your mana pool and damage delivering abilities.

Paladins and rogues were always my main enemy.  Paladins because they could stun you for 15s or whatever from a distance and rogues because they could sneak up to you and stunlock you until you died.  Hunters were quite easy as my mage.  The hunter would hope I would focus on the pet, but I always went after the player first.

The biggest issue I had with a mage was being surprised by multiple people.  In PvE I was godlike (and still prefer it to arcane and fire for leveling or questing), in PvP depending on classes I could put up a struggle (against similar level classes) but most often bit it when surprised and already dropped to half life by the time I start casting and manuevering.  Character is here with the frost spec I've used and had decent success with.  Stacking haste is another thing to get your cast times down.  Accessible trinkets that periodically give you haste also work well for me.  That's why I was curious if I stood a chance at any of the Battle Grounds or if I was just going to be farmed over and over again since I only have the PvP chestpiece and no other resilience gear.

[Vash]

Imitating top-ranked people is a very hit and miss exercise, as they often have some very odd specs that are tuned for high-end arenas.

Eh, I'm having a hard time thinking of examples of that.  They're tuned for PvP to be sure and may not be very friendly/optimal if you want to do some PvE on the side without changing specs (especially glyphs), but for the most part what works in Arena is equally suited for general PvP play in BG's and Wintergrasp.

PvP specs are slightly less cookie cutter than PvE in that there are usually a few talent points that come down to personal choice/playstyle or what class your teaming up with.

However, most tend to emphasize some combination of CC/survivability/burst damage/extra cooldowns/mobility which is just as useful to any type of PvP as it is to Arena play, even high end.

[K9]

Priest specs are very highly tuned at the high end, and aren't always optimal for BGing.

[Vash]

I've seen a lot of freedom in Priest PvP healing specs (disc) that mostly come down to personal choice / team comp / typical enemy team comp/ arena bracket, at all levels.

The one example that comes to mind is Spell warding vs. Divine Fury.  A purely defensive priest or one who plays more 3's and 5's might go spell warding for added survival, whereas a more offensive style priest who plays more 2's may choose Divine Fury for faster casting smites/holy fires and reduced cast time on greater heal if they occasionally use it.

There's a lot of choice in the middle and deeper parts of the disc tree too; Absolution, Enlightenment, Imp Flash Heal, Grace, Renewed Hope, Divine Aegis.  After picking up the core Disc and pvp focused Disc talents you'll only have enough talents left to pick up some of those.  Which ones a particular PvP priest gets can vary a good amount, even at the highest level of competition.

As for a healer spec not being useful/optimal in BG's, I find it hard to believe.  You could be spec'd 0/0/0 and still contribute if you managed to heal at all and cap/defend objectives or use vehicles/turrets effectively.  Lets be honest and admit that BG's are just for fun/farming and not having a spec 100% optimized for them isn't gonna be a huge dealbreaker and definitely not the deciding factor in any given match.

I haven't done any PvP since weeks prior to 3.2  (struggling arena team leaving me with no available gear upgrades combined with impending Penance nerf killed my motivation) but this thread, the new BG, and the upcoming New Arena season are all starting to give me the PvP itch again.  I'll probably go try my new PvP spec (crazy Holy/Disc hybrid) soon now that the frenzy over the new patch and badge revamp is starting to die down.

[WindupAtheist]

So is there any way yet to upgrade from a Titansteel Destroyer without sitting through some shitass raid for 3 hours only to have some Deathknight or something get it IF it drops?

[K9]

A lot of the high-end arena guys, especially the ones in twos and threes, take a pretty offensive approach, with talents like searing light and the glyph of holy fire; for a general fucking around in BGs spec I'd take a much more defensive build. However this is a bit of a techincal argument that can be found done to death on ArenaJunkies or EJ, so I'll just leave it there.

[K9]

So is there any way yet to upgrade from a Titansteel Destroyer without sitting through some shitass raid for 3 hours only to have some Deathknight or something get it IF it drops?

Edge of Ruin from heroic Trial of the Crusader (the 5-man).

It's really the only upgrade you can get, unless they decide to allow arena weapons for honour.

[Nebu]

A lot of the high-end arena guys, especially the ones in twos and threes, take a pretty offensive approach, with talents like searing light and the glyph of holy fire; for a general fucking around in BGs spec I'd take a much more defensive build. However this is a bit of a techincal argument that can be found done to death on ArenaJunkies or EJ, so I'll just leave it there.

I'm not at all interested in arenas.  Like zero.  I guess that I'll be best served by experience rather than the word of another.  I know how I play and what works best for me.  I'll just build my spec to emphasize the things I do well and say to hell with conventional wisdom.  

[Nevermore]

This would probably be the easiest replacement to get.  It's from the 5 man heroic Trial of the Champion.

Fake edit: screw you K9, I'm still hitting Post!

[Selby]

This would probably be the easiest replacement to get.

I don't even want to mention how many times I've DE'd that...

[Hindenburg]

The same dungeon also drops this, so you've 2 shots at great weapons per day.

[Nebu]

Any suggestions on what to do with these stonekeeper's shards I seem to be collecting?  I have about 100 of them.  I'm not sure if the gear is worth buying if I'm planning to buy it with WG marks.  Should I just trade it all in for honor?

[Fordel]

You'll want a few set aside to get the PvP specific shoulder/head enchants. Also a decent Meta Gem selection.


Otherwise they are for alt/twink items and that big mammoth mount or just extra honour.

[K9]

There is also a stam/resil PvP shoulder enchant bought for 10K honour, the stone keeper's shards are only really useful for the PvP head enchant and the pvp meta gems, although better versions can be purchased off the AH. The WG shoulder enchants offer you AP/resil though, so they may be preferable to you. So basically use them for the enchants and burn the rest for honour.

[Nebu]

I've had a good week.  I've learned a ton about my class and have made some significant gear gains.  I've made close to 100k honor mostly doing WG and each BG enough to turn in the repeatable multiple times.  On your suggestions, I've purchased the gloves and shoulders from the honor merchant, a nice shoulder and resiliance yellow gem using shards, and finally got my 25th WG token to get my 2 min purge trinket.  I also had the cash to buy a better weapon which I made a scope for. 

I'm playing as BM for the time being, but can definately see the benefits of survival's utility.  I'll probably respec as soon as I get another 1k for dual speccing.  I really want to stay BM for solo/daily pve and will go survival for pvp. 

So thanks for all the help.  Between you guys and a hunter that I met on the server I've come a long way in a short time. 

I also saw a guy named Lum in WG last night.  I'm guessing it isn't Scott, but it still made me chuckle.

[K9]

Good to hear your having fun. I've been having a blast trying to do some of the various BG achievements, so you might want to look into those two. The IoC ones are broadly interesting, and keep you involved in the battle but aren't grindy like a lot of the other ones.

[Sheepherder]

Nebu, survival is at rough parity with marks for PvE DPS.

[Nebu]

Nebu, survival is at rough parity with marks for PvE DPS.

This I'm aware of.  I've been BM to solo dungeons.  I need to relearn my toon. 

[Nebu]

Since I started this thread as a way to learn more about the game, perhaps I could ask a few other stupid noob questions:

1) What's up with Paladins and Feral druids?  Last night in WG it took 6 of us to kill a paladin and that only happened because I finally managed to drain him of mana.  They seem like unkillable beasts in pvp and no matter how well I play my hunter, I can only ever solo the stupid ones.  I've been using a gorrilla pet to deal with paladins and casters, but that leaves me weak to warriors and rogues.

2) Warriors.  I subdue them to reduce rage and try my best to kite them, but still can't do anything when they close if disengage is down.  Is this just a rock-paper-scissors thing?

3) Rogues: a well geared rogue can kill me entirely before cc wears off.  They stun from stealth.  If I purge that they vanish and re-apply or sap me.  I can't seem to get any distance from them and usually just resign myself to death when 2 hit me. 

So... if I want to kill paladins and casters my gorilla pet seems best.  If I want to kill warriors and rogues, I prefer my wyvvern or spider pets.  Am I doing something drastically wrong or is this just a circle I should learn to live with.  I guess this is a byproduct of pvp being tacked onto a pve game. 


Note: I dont' mean to complain here.  I'm really just asking if I'm missing something obvious or there really exists some unbalanced classes in pvp.  Warriros, druids, and warlocks seem to do very well out there and when I'm in a crowd, I notice that enemy will run right at me.  I'm guessing it's because hunters represent a squishy, easy to kill target?  That or I'm doing something right. I can say that when I have a decent healer in my group I tend to be near the top of the kills list, which makes me happy being that I'm in mostly blue gear. 

I'll check out arena junkies for some strategy ideas. 

[dd0029]

There aren't many people an adequately geared rogue can't kill if they get the drop on them.  The one thing you can try is wait to trinket the kidney shot.  That is the second stun.  Even then its iffy.  Get them marked if you can as that shows through stealth and keep them dot'd to break the inevitable vanish restunlock attempt.

Warriors are beasts.  Different specs have different things to watch out for.  When you see the spinning thing that continues, you just need to run for six seconds.  That's really nasty and while they are doing that they can't be slowed, stopped or anything.  You need to do your best to slow them down and increase the range to just outside the deadzone.  You can still be remarkably close and get off most instant shots.  Work on jump turning.  That's running forward, jumping, mouse turning quickly to be facing for a shot and then mouse turning back before you land.  You really need a boot enchant or run speed talent to make it work best.

What kind of pally were you having trouble with?  Ret's are the most susceptible to kiting.  Be ready to trinket the Hammer.  Repentance is just a sap like CC so it breaks on damage.  When you see the bubble, just kite that out.  Well played holy pallys can be a very tough nut to crack.  Make sure to keep the aimed shot MS debuff up.  That's the key.  You need to do your beat to slow their throughput. 

Feral druids are much like rogues, if they get the drop on you, odds are you die.

People run at hunters to negate their range.  If you can keep on top of a hunter, they can have real trouble getting to range to shoot and do much damage.

[Nebu]

Great stuff.  I'm going to work on that. 

I'm really enjoying hunter because they have so many tools at their disposal.  There are just times that I get overwhelmed by the number of options.  Each time I die, I tend to analyze what I did wrong.  Often, the list is long. 

[Selby]

3) Rogues: a well geared rogue can kill me entirely before cc wears off.

This has been rogues since after release.  They've always been tops on PvP lists.  Paladins are up there too and have been for a while.  Really it comes down to getting the drop on someone as to how much of a chance you have.

[Nebu]

I find that my fun level is entirely dependant on staying with the pack.  When I go off on my own, I just end up as free honor to anyone but bad players.  Much of that is my own fault, but that doesn't make it less frustrating.

[dd0029]

That's the way to be unless you massively overgear your opponents.  One thing that helped my pvp game, what there is of it, is playing alts up of the classes I have trouble against.  That way I can see what they can do.  This helped with playing my DK.  I was having a terrible time against ret pallys.  They were rocking me hard.  So, I had a pally at 70 I leveled up and I focused on trying to kill DKs to see how they responded.  Then I started noticing my troubles with warriors, so, up goes the warrior, though in this case I am seeing that warriors can be really RNG dependant. 

[K9]

I find that my fun level is entirely dependant on staying with the pack.  When I go off on my own, I just end up as free honor to anyone but bad players.  Much of that is my own fault, but that doesn't make it less frustrating.

You need to stike a balance between sticking with people and mindlessly following the zerg to a loss. Really until you are supremely geared, or if you happen to be a rogue/feral/DK then you are pretty vulnerable solo. As a healer I'll often find a sensible DPS to pocket heal around; or ideally I'll BG with my 2v2 partner (a ret paladin). The difference between solo and a duo or trio working together with each other in mind is amazing. It's not an exact science, but trying to show you care about healers (CC someone on them, attack whoever is attacking them, even maybe whipsering them and asking if you can follow them around) can reap huge benefits. As a healer, if I know I have a DPS who will look out for me, I'll do my best to care for them, even if they don't have amazing gear.

Do you have the minimap on in BGs? (default key is Shift+M). I find the minimap very useful to track what's going on.

1) What's up with Paladins and Feral druids?  Last night in WG it took 6 of us to kill a paladin and that only happened because I finally managed to drain him of mana.  They seem like unkillable beasts in pvp and no matter how well I play my hunter, I can only ever solo the stupid ones.  I've been using a gorrilla pet to deal with paladins and casters, but that leaves me weak to warriors and rogues.

Holy paladins like all healers are PvP tanks. They won't kill anyone, but well played they can tie plenty of people up. In an uncoordinated group, they only way to kill them is to run them down, or put up a massive assist train. If you keep viper sting up on them they will have to split GCDs between healing and cleansing. You should have enemy cast bars turned on, or get an addon that shows enemy cast bars and then time stuns and such to interrupt their heals. Healers solo go down very fast against coordinated opposition, but can last a long time against an uncoordinated rabble who aren't purging their buffs, interrupting their heals, draining their mana and CCing them. Snaring the healer will also help as good ones will try to block line of sight between them and the people hitting on them, so abilities like Wing Clip and Frost Trap can really help. Lastly, going 11 points into Marks for Aimed Shot for the -50% healing debuff will really help. As a healer -heal% debuffs are hell and make the difference between outlasting and getting wrecked very quick.

Paladins will be about 45% holy, 45% ret and 10% prot. Rets can be run OOM pretty fast, and tend to rely on high opening burst to put you on the back foot. Most Rets will let you get them low, then bubble to heal. The time when they bubble is your time to gain distance on them. Prot paladins I have no idea. Their mana sucks but they take fuck all damage; probably treat them similar to rets.

My encounters with Ferals are fortunately rare; but invariably nasty. You can fear them with scare beast while they are in cat or bear form. Otherwise I don't have many ideas.

2) Warriors.  I subdue them to reduce rage and try my best to kite them, but still can't do anything when they close if disengage is down.  Is this just a rock-paper-scissors thing?

Warriors are a nightmare once they are glued to you. Getting a stam+speed enchant for your boots will help with the kiting, but with charge and intercept so available now it's very hard to get distance on a good Warrior.

3) Rogues: a well geared rogue can kill me entirely before cc wears off.  They stun from stealth.  If I purge that they vanish and re-apply or sap me.  I can't seem to get any distance from them and usually just resign myself to death when 2 hit me. 

Trinket out of kidney shot. Rogues will open with cheap shot (a 4s stun) then build 3 more combo points for a 6s kidney shot. At this point they are usually out of energy and have no combo points on you. You trinket now and start kiting away, if you can trinket and stun the rogue using your pet more the better. They can only sap you while you are out of combat, so if you kite away at speed (and your trinket should have removed most or all stacks of crippling poison that may have been applied) then you should be ok. Remember to use flare and traps when defending to force rogues to face you where you want them to. Smart rogues will disarm your traps, but these are a bit rare.

If the rogue blinds you then you're in for a rougher time, but getting more resilience and HP will help this. With around 500 resilience, 20K HP and 9K armour I can live through a trinketed kidney shot followed by a blind around 75% of the time. Using pet abilities such as roar of sacrifice would probably help here, although I'm not an expert on hunter PvP

Note: I dont' mean to complain here.  I'm really just asking if I'm missing something obvious or there really exists some unbalanced classes in pvp.  Warriros, druids, and warlocks seem to do very well out there and when I'm in a crowd, I notice that enemy will run right at me.  I'm guessing it's because hunters represent a squishy, easy to kill target?  That or I'm doing something right. I can say that when I have a decent healer in my group I tend to be near the top of the kills list, which makes me happy being that I'm in mostly blue gear. 

Your experiences aren't out of the ordinary, some classes counter others very hard. It sounds like you are doing the right things, but suffer from a lack of survivability through gear. PvP in WoW also requires you to use a lot of abilities that you never use in PvE, and knowing the right ability and time to use it against each given class is something you learn through experience. PvP healers are always going to be hard to kill, but as a healer myself you can deal with it. Healers were free kills for the longest time, and the only viability we have is as tanks. On the flip side, healers do make or break many BGs, especially AB and WSG, where the numbers are small. Situational awareness is something most WoW players lack, and not killing someone's pocket healer(s) in PvP is equivalent to the people who stand in the fire in PvE. If you see someone getting heals it is almost always not worth fighting them until the healer is dead. Sometimes you can out DPS heals, but a good healer left alone can keep a DPS up against 3-4 people without too much trouble usually.

Melee will probably pick on you because you have fewer escape mechanisms than other ranged classes; but also when they compare HP between you and the mage with 24K HP, you're probably the more tempting target. As you gear up people will see you as less of a target of opportunity.

Gear things that might help:
 - Get a meta gem with +stamina and either -stun or -snare duration depending on what bothers you more. I generally find stuns more annoying, but for a kiting class -snares might have some value
 - Get a boot enchant that adds speed (Tuskarr's Vitality) You can get +speed from a meta gem (doesn't stack with the enchant) but you can't get stun or snare duration reduction anywhere else except talents (which stack with the meta gem) so the boot enchant is the best idea.


Out of interest, what classes are you finding easier to manage?

[Nebu]

K9: Great help there.  I can not thank you enough for the time and effort.  I'm noticing that as I improve gear, I also improve my survival. 

Dumb question: I've been playing all of the BG's for the concerted efforts quest but it got me wondering what else the marks are good for?  I assume that they can be used for low level armor, but are they good for anything besides the quest at level 80?  Can I buy stuff with Isle of Conquest marks or is that worse than honor gear?