PvP for Dummies

[Lantien]

Yeah, what was the deal with the Black Dragonflight re-roll? 

It was the first PVE->PVP transfer. Broken was having internal issues and their solutions to it eventually led to the dissolution.  First we got more hardcore (mandatory attendance for progression, new loot restrictions based on attendance), which pissed people off when Twin Emps kept squashing us.  AQ40 broke us pretty hard.  Then the brain trust running the show decided a server transfer would fix everything, because moving problems to a new location magically makes them go away.  Grim, Burk, and others thought they were pretty hardcore and the PVP server would be no big deal.  Heh, wrong. 

 

Bummer.  I heard that some of the first PVE -> PVP transfers were a bit shady as to some servers maybe getting some preferential treatment.  Thankfully our guild was never very hardcore, as the core group of people knew each other personally.  On the flip side, even the entry level MC raid hurt us pretty hard.

Ironically, when we flipped over to a PVP server, we got accustomed to it just fine.  I think a lot of it was that most of us were guys who played shooters off and on, and weren't afraid of getting ganked from time to time.  Plus we all re-subbed at the tail end of TBC, and were generally left alone.

I seem to recall not really ever killing you with my warrior.  I vaguely remember madly charging you, then realizing that healers/support where all the way behind me, to my chagrin. 

Yah, I don't think you managed to kill my shaman, but in your defense I was probably one of the best equipped on the server outside of Samuseva (retarded Hawaiian ftl) or Massy.  You squashed my rogue quite a few times though. 

Yeah, Rogues were delicious warrior candy in Vanilla between hamstring, overpower, and execute.  Considering our guild leader (and my friend) was a priest, I became very accustomed to doing a Seek and Destroy on Rogues.  Other classes, my strategy was a bit.. uh, spottier. In fact, I was pretty terrible until I picked this up. I think the first few times it procced, I got at least one furious string of angry horde shouts from one of the mouthier horde rogues.. you know, the one that no one on either side liked. 

Plus this was during the part of vanilla where you could get away with a few points in Protection tree as a warrior and call yourself a tank, so I was a bit gimped all the way around.  Not quite PVP, not quite a tank! As someone who was semi-serious in Vanilla and now casual in WOTLK, let me just say that I love the new changes.

[WindupAtheist]

Weapon options (in no particular order):

Thanks for the list. :)

I'll just buy the Titansteel mace off the AH when it turns up, and... some shield, whatever. I hate instance PVE. Also, LFG is still 3949393047453843 DPS that nobody wants and when I try, it's pointless.

[Nebu]

Is there a way to measure DPS in this game?  Elitest jerks has a few spreadsheets, but I was hoping their might be a mod that does this.  I looked on curse, but couldn't find anything. 

Any suggestions?

[K9]

Recount is the addon you want. Low-weight and very comprehensive. Great for gauging personal performance; although DPS isn't a great metric for PvP success.

[Nebu]

Recount is the addon you want. Low-weight and very comprehensive. Great for gauging personal performance; although DPS isn't a great metric for PvP success.

I don't want it as a metric for pvp success.  Play is the only thing that will do that.  Having played pvp mmos for as long as their have been pvp mmos, it's how you use your tools that measures effectiveness.

I'm just trying to better assess tradeoffs.  In WG my role is almost entirely dps.  In the BG's, I need a better balance of damage and utility/survivability.  In PvE, it's a dps situation.  Getting information on the fly is helping me to understand things better. 

Thanks for the link. 

[Sheepherder]

Rawr is good for looking for upgrades.

[WindupAtheist]

Aw screw it, healing is for girls anyway. I'm not doing jousting bullshit or running some dumbshit instance over and over.

I just did the Amphitheater with friends. The healy mace from there will do me good enough until I decide if I wanna stick with this, I guess.

[Fordel]

Nebu, the actual DPS listed in recount can often be misleading. A much more concrete stat is the damage done ranking.

[Nebu]

Nebu, the actual DPS listed in recount can often be misleading. A much more concrete stat is the damage done ranking.

That's good to know.  Thanks!

[Sheepherder]

To be more specific, the problem with recount is largely within the way it calculates DPS down-time.  Namely, it doesn't until three seconds after your last combat log event (AFAIK, I was pretty tired the last time I looked at the code).  Which means anything with DoTs or instant casts that can be deployed on the move is actually being punished if they exercise this capacity compared to a stand still and nuke caster, as Recount continues to increment DPS uptime while the character is contributing a fraction of their normal DPS.  Then, to pile on more issues: the fact that it is on the client-side makes it susceptible to latency and framerate problems.

It's still the most accurate combat log parser though.

[Sheepherder]

So, I was by Light's Hope on my 55 Orc Shaman when I saw a couple of guys flagged out in front of LHC.  Naturally I went and flagged myself, thinking that perhaps one might bite.  Eight honorable kills from five different people later I had come to the inevitable conclusion that the usual crowd on PvE servers is fucking stupid.  The best part was the one who got pissed at me the second or third time he tried to take a swing and got instagibbed by guards and started spamming emotes like it was my fault that he was retarded.

[Delmania]

So, I reupped my account, and decided to get my warlock (undead, Andorhal server) to 80 and slog through some BGs and Wintergrasp.  It sounds like people are recommending to use the crafted PvP armor, but I was thinking of ditching Tailoring on her and leveling Engineering instead (she's Enchanting, so hopefully that and my dk who's a miner can mitigate the costs).  Thoughts?

[Nebu]

My hunter has 450 engineering.  The only good I see coming from it are a) I get AH access in Dalaran, b) I get a portable vendor/bank, c) I get a northrend wormhole, and d) I can make my own ammo.  If you aren't a hunter, I don't see much point in slogging through engineering.  Go alchemy.  It's both easy and useful. 

[Rendakor]

Rocket gloves are just awesome.

[Vash]

So, I reupped my account, and decided to get my warlock (undead, Andorhal server) to 80 and slog through some BGs and Wintergrasp.  It sounds like people are recommending to use the crafted PvP armor, but I was thinking of ditching Tailoring on her and leveling Engineering instead (she's Enchanting, so hopefully that and my dk who's a miner can mitigate the costs).  Thoughts?

You should be able to buy pretty much any crafted pvp gear off the AH, though depending on the server it may cost you a decent chunk of change.  Barring that you could buy/gather the materials yourself and then find a tailor to craft the set for you.  Someone leveling tailoring would prob craft it for free if they were getting skill ups from it.

Basically, take whatever professions you want, you'll have access to the pvp crafted gear regardless.  Making it yourself is just a convenience/cost saver if you already have a crafting profession at a high level.

[Ingmar]

There's a cloak agility/parachute enchantment for engineers which is both a good stat for hunters and has its uses in certain battlegrounds too - its 1 better than the regular agility enchant for cloaks, I think. Casters have a spellpower version, which isn't bad itself. You can totally SAVE THE DAY jumping off the lumber mill to save the blacksmith with that thing! Plus it is insurance if you're like me and have a tendency to use disengage even if you forgot there was a cliff right behind you. Sadly my higher level hunter isn't an engineer.

The crit rating from the nitro boost boot enchant is better than anything else you can put on boots as a dps class too, unless you need the hit rating from icewalker. Plus, NITRO BOOST.

Engineers also have the best glove enchant for tanking (almost +900 armor).

I'm not sure if the mind amplification head enchant is worth using, but it should be noted it is the highest +stamina enchant available for the head, which has its uses in pvp.

The frag belt has a cast time but is apparently usable while moving, so that's another little trick up your sleeve - its a long cooldown (6 min) and not high damage but it does have the standard 3 second incapacitate, which can be useful. BG/world pvp only though, can't use it in arena. No opportunity cost since nobody has a belt enchant (I believe it stacks with the belt buckle.)

Engineering has definitely improved in the last couple patches, basically.

[Ingmar]

So imagine my surprise - the 'awesome' protection warrior/moonkin 2v2 arena team that Fordel and I made was apparently 'good' enough for us to get the Challenger title/achievement, which is for the top 35% of teams in a given bracket/battlegroup. We topped out at around a 1450 arena rating. 

There must have been a lot of played-for-one-week-and-totally-sucked teams.

[Rendakor]

Got that in my DK/Lock team too; our high was 1500ish.

[Fordel]

Does that officially make us elitist now? 

[Merusk]

There was an error that assigned S6 titles/ achieves to folks who earned them in previous seasons.  Were any members of your teams in this group?  If so, your titles may be going away.

During the process of awarding the titles for Arena Season 6, we encountered an issue where characters who earned the titles in previous seasons, but did not earn them in season 6, received them again along with the corresponding achievements. We have found the cause of this and will be removing the unearned titles and achievements during the next regularly scheduled maintenance.

[Ingmar]

Neither of us had ever made an arena title before, so I doubt it, but it sounds like there have been a few other odd title bugs cropping up so I'm sure its possible we will lose them.

[Fordel]

I can't go back! I've tasted the fringes of the top and can't settle for any less! 

[Gobbeldygook]

So imagine my surprise - the 'awesome' protection warrior/moonkin 2v2 arena team that Fordel and I made was apparently 'good' enough for us to get the Challenger title/achievement, which is for the top 35% of teams in a given bracket/battlegroup. We topped out at around a 1450 arena rating. 

There must have been a lot of played-for-one-week-and-totally-sucked teams.

In previous season, IIRC, challenger was typically in the high 1500's/low 1600's.  The cut-off for rival hasn't changed at all.  It's always been wherever PVP weapons become available.

Anyway.  Your experience matches up with what was predicted by Arena Junkies title calculator (not linking the site; they've had issues with installing trojans via flash).  You'll just have to take my word for it because of the new season, but when I looked it up, the Challenger cut off on Nightfall was like ~1400.

[Paelos]

There are a lot of people that think arena sounds great in theory. So they put together a team, and then the reality that it's nothing but a gear contest at most levels hits home hard. They quit after two weeks.

That is about 90% of my guild who ever tried it right there.

[Fordel]

If we are in the 35% range, that just makes me laugh and laugh and laugh.

[WindupAtheist]

The place: Hellfire Peninsula

The opposition: A couple of dumbass level 80 blood elf rogues with full PVE epics and a combined 0-23 arena record, stealthing around one of the PVP towers on our stupid RP server, trawling for lowbies to kill.

The result: I fall out of the sky onto them before they know WTF is going on, and waste them both without even needing to bubble. Then they rezzed and brought some friend who was at least semi-competent and ganged up on me, but who cares?

Man, was it ever satisfying. They were so bad that I had to look them up on the armory. I hardly regard arena stats as the end-all of PVP since I don't even DO arena myself, but 0-23 speaks for itself. Fucking dipshit posers.

(We need a random PVP blabber thread, and this seems as good a place as any.)

[Ingmar]

2x rogue fights are my ABSOLUTE FAVORITE thing to fight in 2v2 arena. <3

[K9]

If you survive the first 10s or so of double rogue you've basically won the fight. It's an interesting comp to fight.

[Soulflame]

Gobbeldygook and I earned challenger titles with prot warrior and prot/holy paladin.   

We never did make it above 1480 or so, mostly because we had a few matches go for 20+ minutes, and I got really frustrated/bored with it.

[Ingmar]

If you survive the first 10s or so of double rogue you've basically won the fight. It's an interesting comp to fight.

Its not very difficult to do that as a protection warrior!

STOP HITTING ME FOR 50 PER HIT OH GOD

[K9]

Hah; I really haven't seen many people playing prot in Arena's, it must be interesting.

For me it's an issue of whether my Ret can give me HoP fast enough.

[Ingmar]

There are some fun things you can do, especially to casters; charge->shockwave->shield bash->concussion blow->heroic throw as a prot warrior is something like 11-12 seconds of stun alternating with silence and then you can fear them at the end of it if you need to lock someone down even longer. The burst is better than it was with the block gear all getting its block value doubled, and improved disarm is +10% damage which is nice too.

We haven't taken the field yet this season though, so I dunno what the current state of things is. The problem in 2s is that healers are just overpowered in the format, we always struggled a lot with those when they were played well.

[K9]

We've only played 20 or so games, but I'm feeling that damage is a lot higher, although part of this may be early season jitters as the good people haven't siphoned up yet. I'm not feeling so powerful this season as a priest I have to say.

Our fastest death was to an Elemental Shaman - Lock team of all things. Wierd comp, crazy burst.

[Sheepherder]

The burst is better than it was with the block gear all getting its block value doubled, and improved disarm is +10% damage which is nice too.

Devastate: Weapon damage and bonus per Sunder Armor on the target increased by 100%.

[Fordel]

There is some pretty good rabble rabble drama happening on various WoW forums atm. Some Arena E-Star got accused of botting with some fairly convincing evidence.


I would link a thread, but they are all being deleted faster then I can read them.