EQ 'Next'

[Lantyssa]

Well there are certainly worse designers to be compared to.

It wasn't McQuaid, so there's that...

[Draegan]

Lolz. Hate to remind everyone but a gear grind (if I'm understanding you correctly) is the same as a level grind to the player. Unless the gear is vanity items your asking today's player base to give applause because you replaced mob grinding with quest grinding. While technically all mmo's have a level grind followed by a gear grind, so technically your idea is 50% less grindy than the norm. But 50% less grindy isn't necessarily less grindy as far as players are concerned.

Skills are unlocked, not found like pokemon. Players should be able to map their future progress (without opening their browser). Complicating skill progression is guaranteed to end in tears for all but a extremely niche playerbase. No one should be expected to auto-attack through encounters or simply go without skills because their too noob to find it. Maybe 1 out of 8 skills need to be unlocked through some hoop and ladder mechanism(it was done with success in Guild Wars), but to make that norm for all your skills in clown shoes.

Hand crafting content is only viable if your player base regularly uses it as their game. Spending the resources on the before max areas in the game is arguably retarded. New players need enough time to get used to the game. The early levels or whatever should be used to teach them the game and make them competitive. This is not a 24 hour+ activity. After you have prepared them for the game, that is when they should be in the officially dumped into the "end game" which should be 90% of your game and lateral progression should end.

So you basically didn't read anything I wrote.  Cool.

[Stabs]

[ If you want to spend a billion years grinding out levels, EQ and 1999 are waiting for you.

Which is why EQ Next might want to repeat that experience.

As for the ideas being terrible well games are about implementation more than ideas.

If Blizzard took my ideas and ran with them I bet they could make an awesome game. In fact no end game, endless levelling, oh wait they already did that it was called Diablo 2. Terrible, huh?

Even WoW at launch did not sell based on it's end game. In 2004-5 people bought WoW because they expected it to be fun, found it to be fun and told other people it was fun. Based on the levelling game. Hardly anyone raided in the first 6 months and there was no structured pvp.

Your game reads like a checklist of features that hardcore veteran gamers would love. Skills over levels, full loot pvp, etc.

But those aren't the main audience, certainly not for Everquest Next. In fact designing for vets has already been thoroughly debunked:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20041103/bartle_01.shtml

In the end we're both kidding ourselves. EQ Next will obviously be a reasonably polished DIKU, basically EQ2 with some extra shine.

[Murgos]

[ If you want to spend a billion years grinding out levels, EQ and 1999 are waiting for you.

Which is why EQ Next might want to repeat that experience.

No, I think McQuaid and Co. proved conclusively that that option was a non starter just recently.

[statisticalfool]

Even WoW at launch did not sell based on it's end game. In 2004-5 people bought WoW because they expected it to be fun, found it to be fun and told other people it was fun. Based on the levelling game. Hardly anyone raided in the first 6 months and there was no structured pvp.

But 5 years is a long time. 200 hours to level cap sounded not terrible back then, and now it's deathmarch ahoy. Also, and more importantly, the reason why WoW classic worked so well is not just because of standard issue Blizzard polish, but because no MMO had done the quest-driven game so thoroughly.

Today, if a well-polished WoW classic-style game were released, it'd just be "kill ten rats" snarks over and over.

Similarly, end game dungeons like UBRS and MC kept people entertained/cursing at the bugs for months, largely because the bar was low. If you gave a game an end raid of a bugless MC today, people would just be bored off their asses: "Really? All I have to do is decurse and then debuff Shazzrah? Boring."

It's a tricky issue, that the MMOG industry has made a lot of "casual" people actually quite good at their games.

[Draegan]

[ If you want to spend a billion years grinding out levels, EQ and 1999 are waiting for you.

Which is why EQ Next might want to repeat that experience.

As for the ideas being terrible well games are about implementation more than ideas.

If Blizzard took my ideas and ran with them I bet they could make an awesome game. In fact no end game, endless levelling, oh wait they already did that it was called Diablo 2. Terrible, huh?

Even WoW at launch did not sell based on it's end game. In 2004-5 people bought WoW because they expected it to be fun, found it to be fun and told other people it was fun. Based on the levelling game. Hardly anyone raided in the first 6 months and there was no structured pvp.

Your game reads like a checklist of features that hardcore veteran gamers would love. Skills over levels, full loot pvp, etc.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Diablo 2?  Endless leveling?  That game was all about the gear grind and not about the leveling (That and the single player  game story.)  It wasn't even an MMOG either so I don't see the comparison.

The reason why Vanilla-WOW was fun because it put a ton of people into a familiar world, allowed them to play in it and had a structured advancement method to it that was easy and entertaining.  In short: it was a fun game.  Levels didn't have anything to do with it.  Now every game has kill 10 rats, kill 10 bigger rats, dinggrats. 

And how does using a skill based system to measure character strength make it hardcore?  You're stripping levels and putting another measuring stick.  (I believe Funcom's The Secret World is doing something like this)  It's actually less hardcore because a new player can play with a veteran.  If you actually read what I wrote, I would say that I would like to see full loot PVP, but you don't necessarily need that.  You can use the game mechanics in both PVE and PVP.

You sound like one of those bitter "casual" players that hate those really "hardcore" gamers.  Can you show me on the doll where that hardcore raider touched you?

I'm not a hardcore gamer, or raider or whatever you want to call it.  I havn't been for years. 

[tkinnun0]

"Really? All I have to do is decurse and then debuff Shazzrah? Boring."

I would love that.

Imagine that the game told: "This fight has 2 phases. In phase 1, your task is to remove Curse1 with your Skill1. In phase 2, your task is to keep Debuff2 on the boss with your Skill2. That is all." And that would be all, you'd do that, shoot the breeze on vent, sip a beer and then you'd win and get loot. GG, same time tomorrow?

Maybe someday someone (Blizzard?) makes a game like that.

[Stabs]

But 5 years is a long time. 200 hours to level cap sounded not terrible back then, and now it's deathmarch ahoy.

Now this is the interesting point: does fun change over time?

Richard Bartle, in the article I linked suggests that the wheel can turn full circle.

[Draegan]

 

I don't think it was ever fun.

[Malakili]

But 5 years is a long time. 200 hours to level cap sounded not terrible back then, and now it's deathmarch ahoy.

Now this is the interesting point: does fun change over time?

Richard Bartle, in the article I linked suggests that the wheel can turn full circle.

Its repetition that isn't fun.  If you are doing something brand new, 200 hours to "max" isn't bad.  But a 200 hour quest grind is going to seem pretty terrible now.  Just that they are NEW quests isn't really going to be all that much of a consolation either.

My first 200 hours of EVE didn't feel like a grind, but if FEVE (my imaginary EVE rip off) did the same thing, the first 200 hours would probably drag.

Being original matters.  Well, being original AND good.

[Stabs]

Eh?

There have been no original games in this genre* yet. Everything is a derivative of Dikumud, Elite and/or Ultima 1.

(*by genre I mean graphical virtual world games not muds).

[statisticalfool]

Eh?

There have been no original games in this genre* yet. Everything is a derivative of Dikumud, Elite and/or Ultima 1.

(*by genre I mean graphical virtual world games not muds).

I know, right, we've had attacks, and equipment, and character death, and points, and winning, and losing and keyboard shortcuts, fonts and pixels in computer games for ages now. God, when are MMOs ever going to start doing something original?

(i for one am superexcited about world of cheesecraft)

[Xurtan]

I've heard about that. Isn't it supposed to be real innovative with the first instance of smell-based technology?

[Sheepherder]

Eh?

There have been no original games in this genre* yet. Everything is a derivative of Dikumud, Elite and/or Ultima 1.

(*by genre I mean graphical virtual world games not muds).

[Kageh]

The thief class is clearly unbalanced. Needs fixing ASAP.

[Stabs]

I downloaded the EQ2 trial yesterday and discovered that they have addressed the issue of people who like to level slowly in a rather creative way.

In your alternate advancement window there is now a slider bar:

Amount of adventure experience to convert to alternate enhancement experience

I set it to 75% and carried on playing. My character is now level 11.44 with 7.25 points worth of AA progression.

For people who haven't played EQ2 recently alternate advancement is like a talent point system that you level up separately. It's based on advancement experience which is earned in a different way from regular adventure experience with more of an emphasis on rewarding exploring.

It starts at level 10 so with 75% of my adventure experience going towards it I've earned 7 and a bit levels of AA progression and one and a half levels of adventuring levels since the system became active.

Now what's so nice for me as a slow leveller is that not only can I set my levelling speed to slow but the game is rewarding me for doing so. Having these extra AA points makes me a more powerful character for my level than I would be had I not touched the slider bar.

So I can explore several different 11-20 areas and progress without my quests and AA objectives turning grey and ceasing to reward me.

The ingenious thing about the system is it doesn't stop people powering to max level. If you never touch the slider bar you will hit max level in the usual way then experience after max level will be converted to AA (in other words you'll collect these quasi talents as if you set the bar to 100%).

Not only does it suit slow leveller explorer types but it also helps keep people who want to play together at the same stage. I was recently playing DDO with a friend but I couldn't keep up with him and he got further and further ahead until we could no longer operate together without penalty. With this system he could still progress his character while not out-levelling me.

Well done SOE, very nice solution to my issue. Hope this feature makes the cut into EQ Next.

[Xurtan]

2001, is that you? AA points and being given a slider to adjust how much XP goes to AA or leveling isn't exactly new.  

Still, it is nice that you can start gaining them at such a low level, and spend time going through all of the content. Makes me wish they had had it in game when I was running my Dirge up.

[Yegolev]

My favorite part is using decimal places in describing your level.

[01101010]

My favorite part is using decimal places in describing your level.

Christ I just winced.

[Pennilenko]

My favorite part is using decimal places in describing your level.

The stock UI doesn't give that type of detail, he must have a UI like Profit or something. It gives you decimal graduation for those really retentive people who like to know exactly how much exp a kill gives them.

[Numtini]

The stock UI doesn't give that type of detail, he must have a UI like Profit or something. It gives you decimal graduation for those really retentive people who like to know exactly how much exp a kill gives them.

I resembled that when grinding to 80

[KallDrexx]

And how does using a skill based system to measure character strength make it hardcore?  You're stripping levels and putting another measuring stick.  (I believe Funcom's The Secret World is doing something like this)  It's actually less hardcore because a new player can play with a veteran.  If you actually read what I wrote, I would say that I would like to see full loot PVP, but you don't necessarily need that.  You can use the game mechanics in both PVE and PVP.

Not to mention skill based systems make it intensely harder to form a group for content.  With class and level based systems, you know exactly what someone is/is not capable of.  With skill based systems you have to correlate all of their high skills together and figure out a role for them.  Grouping is already becoming difficult enough that people have done more and more solo play, and this will make it so that even the casual grouper probably wont' group up.  Destroying social abilities in an MMO is not going to make it remotely successful these days.

[palmer_eldritch]

And how does using a skill based system to measure character strength make it hardcore?  You're stripping levels and putting another measuring stick.  (I believe Funcom's The Secret World is doing something like this)  It's actually less hardcore because a new player can play with a veteran.  If you actually read what I wrote, I would say that I would like to see full loot PVP, but you don't necessarily need that.  You can use the game mechanics in both PVE and PVP.

Not to mention skill based systems make it intensely harder to form a group for content.  With class and level based systems, you know exactly what someone is/is not capable of.  With skill based systems you have to correlate all of their high skills together and figure out a role for them.  Grouping is already becoming difficult enough that people have done more and more solo play, and this will make it so that even the casual grouper probably wont' group up.  Destroying social abilities in an MMO is not going to make it remotely successful these days.

I dunno, in UO and early SWG you could just wander off and see how you did. There was always something you could do.

I think an important difference between those games and level-based games was a much smaller differentiation in the power levels between different mobs, and between players. It wasn't a world of almighty gods at one end and little fleas at the other.

[El Gallo]

"Really? All I have to do is decurse and then debuff Shazzrah? Boring."

I would love that.

Imagine that the game told: "This fight has 2 phases. In phase 1, your task is to remove Curse1 with your Skill1. In phase 2, your task is to keep Debuff2 on the boss with your Skill2. That is all." And that would be all, you'd do that, shoot the breeze on vent, sip a beer and then you'd win and get loot. GG, same time tomorrow?

Maybe someday someone (Blizzard?) makes a game like that.

EverQuest. That, right there, is the key to EQ. The game was utterly trivial, but was a great excuse to shoot the breeze.

[Engels]

Were you playing the same encounters I did? The coordination it took to take down the boss mobs in Plane of Nightmare and Planes of Disease (Bertoxulous) was anything but trivial. It took enormous stamina and communication between dozens and dozens of people over a chat interface (vent wasn't used very much in my raiding days).

[Nebu]

I'm going to guess that most of us had quit EQ by the time those planes were introduced?   I know that I left shortly after Velious released. 

[Merusk]

Not I. I was there for Disease, Innovation, Nightmare and that one Marr was in (or was it Ro..)  I knew guys in guilds that were doing the "you must have at least 72 players in your raid" raid, Rathe Council.

It still amazes me it was all done over chat instead of vent.  Boggling..

/cast 'Complete Heal'
/yell *** Complete Heal on %t *** 
/yell    --> Roxxie Cast Next in 3.5s <--
/pause 3.5
/yell !! CAST NOW ROXXIE !!

[Bzalthek]

My first real raid was NTOV as the only shaman.  That was some tense shit.

[Kageh]

90% of the coordination was setting up a competent CH rotation though and then you were set, at least that is what I remember. Yeah, it went like that with the macros and the clerics needed to be on their toes. DPS classes, however, were just spamming DPS, and tanks were just, well, hitting their button.

Slows and other debuffs were just cast and maintained, once you figured out what was slowable.

[raydeen]

God I hated Plane of Disease. My mantra was 'LFG for anything BUT PoD!'

[KallDrexx]

I dunno, in UO and early SWG you could just wander off and see how you did. There was always something you could do.

I think an important difference between those games and level-based games was a much smaller differentiation in the power levels between different mobs, and between players. It wasn't a world of almighty gods at one end and little fleas at the other.

Different "generation" and MMO-mentality though.  Graphics aside, if UO was released today it would probably fail because people are expecting hand holding  (unfortunately imo) and expect things to be handed to them.  We are given so much information in MMOs these days that we have come to expect it, and when we aren't given that information people's first thoughts aren't to figure it out themselves, but instead get frustrated or look online for the information required. 

"Everyone" has also been trained in the holy-trinity and that MMO's these days have classes designed around specific roles, and those classes are designed where redundancy in roles is bad, you must fill up the groups with all different roles.  I (again unfortunately) think the mentality has gotten so ingrained that even if a game comes along that designs classes where redundancy is acceptable, it will be such a shock that most players won't take advantage of it. 

[Draegan]

I dunno, in UO and early SWG you could just wander off and see how you did. There was always something you could do.

I think an important difference between those games and level-based games was a much smaller differentiation in the power levels between different mobs, and between players. It wasn't a world of almighty gods at one end and little fleas at the other.

Different "generation" and MMO-mentality though.  Graphics aside, if UO was released today it would probably fail because people are expecting hand holding  (unfortunately imo) and expect things to be handed to them.  We are given so much information in MMOs these days that we have come to expect it, and when we aren't given that information people's first thoughts aren't to figure it out themselves, but instead get frustrated or look online for the information required. 

I think you're confusing hand holding to shitty design.  Terrible game design is dropping someone somewhere and say "Go." 

[Sky]

I'm going to guess that most of us had quit EQ by the time those planes were introduced?   I know that I left shortly after Velious released. 

I made it to Luclin, then died to some buggy blue mob and lost level 54 which had some groovy spell. Recovered my stuff (luckily I was a necro, so CR was never a big deal), camped out and never went back. Primitive, shitty game, punitive as hell but still ended up being able to solo more stuff than in EQ2, heh.

[Nebu]

Terrible game design is dropping someone somewhere and say "Go." 

I disagree.  I look at that as being dropped somewhere and being told to discover.  Perhaps it's all what we grew up with in games.  Early games didn't direct your play nearly as much as they do now. 

[palmer_eldritch]

I dunno, in UO and early SWG you could just wander off and see how you did. There was always something you could do.

I think an important difference between those games and level-based games was a much smaller differentiation in the power levels between different mobs, and between players. It wasn't a world of almighty gods at one end and little fleas at the other.

Different "generation" and MMO-mentality though.  Graphics aside, if UO was released today it would probably fail because people are expecting hand holding  (unfortunately imo) and expect things to be handed to them.  We are given so much information in MMOs these days that we have come to expect it, and when we aren't given that information people's first thoughts aren't to figure it out themselves, but instead get frustrated or look online for the information required. 

"Everyone" has also been trained in the holy-trinity and that MMO's these days have classes designed around specific roles, and those classes are designed where redundancy in roles is bad, you must fill up the groups with all different roles.  I (again unfortunately) think the mentality has gotten so ingrained that even if a game comes along that designs classes where redundancy is acceptable, it will be such a shock that most players won't take advantage of it. 

It's certainly true that a game with skills rather than classes would have to be different to WoW in other ways too.