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Author Topic: Cataclysm  (Read 1532769 times)
Sheepherder
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Reply #3745 on: October 30, 2010, 03:31:48 AM

Yeah, it occurred to me after the fact that block hard caps at ~66.67 mastery skill now, mitigating a maximum of 60% physical damage.  Which is  3061 mastery rating at 80.
Typhon
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Reply #3746 on: October 30, 2010, 07:34:40 AM

Is the following correct?

-Block mitigates 30% damage
-Crit Block mitigates 60% (thanks Ingmar)
-It's likely that with items, mastery and Shield Block, Block will go above 100% chance of happening. When this happens the overage from Shield Block is applied to Crit Block
-It's possible that with items and mastery, Block can go to 100% chance of happening

-Crit Block chance: with items (?), mastery and Shield Block the chance of Crit Block happening are in the ~30% neighborhood.

-All of this applies only to physical damage.

Altogether this represents:
+18% mitigation from Crit Block (assuming a max 30% chance of Crit Block happening)
+18% mitigation from Block (it's not 100% * 30% mitigation, because in the cases where Crit Block applies, Block doesn't apply.  So it's (100%-30%) * 30%... I think)

-To get to that 36% mitigation you'd have to put a ton into block which would otherwise be better off being spent on Stamina, Dodge, Parry (if we're focusing only on mitigation budget).
Sheepherder
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Reply #3747 on: October 30, 2010, 08:24:38 AM

-Block mitigates 30% damage
-Crit Block mitigates 60% (thanks Ingmar)
-It's likely that with items, mastery and Shield Block, Block will go above 100% chance of happening. When this happens the overage from Shield Block is applied to Crit Block
-It's possible that with items and mastery, Block can go to 100% chance of happening


-Crit Block chance: with items (?), mastery and Shield Block the chance of Crit Block happening are in the ~30% neighborhood.

-All of this applies only to physical damage.

Altogether this represents:
+18% mitigation from Crit Block (assuming a max 30% chance of Crit Block happening)
+18% mitigation from Block (it's not 100% * 30% mitigation, because in the cases where Crit Block applies, Block doesn't apply.  So it's (100%-30%) * 30%... I think)

-To get to that 36% mitigation you'd have to put a ton into block which would otherwise be better off being spent on Stamina, Dodge, Parry (if we're focusing only on mitigation budget).

Critical blocks are two-roll, not one-roll, and the order is roll block -> (true) -> roll crit block.  So 21% chance to block, 9% chance to critically block, and 70% other stuff.

Chance to block hitting 100% from items seems like it would be hard, I'm going to math that one out a bit I think.

EDIT:  Fuck it.  Too many numbers, some of which will be relevant for two months and the rest of which have no context to be placed in.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 09:00:06 AM by Sheepherder »
Typhon
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Reply #3748 on: October 30, 2010, 01:25:16 PM

I understood that the Block role is always applied first.  I was looking at it from a best-case perspective where you are able to max block at 100% (Ghost Crawler's comments seem to indicate that was possible) and your Crit Block block is "maxed" (I don't know what max Crit Block is, I guessed in neighborhood of 30%).

If Block is at 100%, you always block.  Without Crit Blocking your mitigation at this point would be 30% on all block-able physical damage.

If I understand Crit Blocking correctly it takes the place of blocking, so instead of mitigating 30%, you mitigate 60% of a hit in which you Crit Block.  In these cases you don't have both a Block and a Crit block applied, so you have to remove from the Block calculation those times that you Crit Block.

With a 30% chance to Crit Block, you total mitagation is 18% + 18% = 36%.  Versus the 30% for straight Block (at 100% chance), Crit Block doesn't seem like an especially impressive ability.  Which all leads back to what Ingmar was saying - there are better things to get then Block and much better things to get then Crit Block.

Maybe my understanding is off.  If not, the Warrior mastery certainly seems disappointing.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #3749 on: October 30, 2010, 06:48:49 PM

I know it's for balance, and I know it's to prevent whining and what not but this sort of class homogenization:

Quote
We have a few more changes which have just come through the pipeline we'd like to share. Some of these changes override changes previously announced in this thread.

This is the sort of rapid iteration our development teams excel at, which is why we're sometimes unable to share every single tweak we make with the public. Game balance is an ongoing project, but since we have a good platform in this thread for sharing tanking changes, let us have a look at the latest:

    * Guardian of Ancient Kings (talented) – 50% damage reduction, 3 minute cooldown, 12 second duration.
    * Icebound Fortitude (talented) -- 50% damage reduction, 3 minute cooldown, 12 second duration.
    * Survival Instincts (talented) -- 50% damage reduction, 3 minute cooldown, 12 second duration.
    * Shield Wall (talented) – 40% damage reduction, 2 minute cooldown, 12 second duration.
    * Shield Wall (talented and glyphed) – 60% damage reduction, 4 minute cooldown, 12 second duration.

is really starting to piss me off. Yes, I understand, that it has been happening to some degree for years now, but this is really getting blatant.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Ingmar
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Reply #3750 on: October 30, 2010, 07:33:47 PM

I understood that the Block role is always applied first.  I was looking at it from a best-case perspective where you are able to max block at 100% (Ghost Crawler's comments seem to indicate that was possible) and your Crit Block block is "maxed" (I don't know what max Crit Block is, I guessed in neighborhood of 30%).

If Block is at 100%, you always block.  Without Crit Blocking your mitigation at this point would be 30% on all block-able physical damage.

If I understand Crit Blocking correctly it takes the place of blocking, so instead of mitigating 30%, you mitigate 60% of a hit in which you Crit Block.  In these cases you don't have both a Block and a Crit block applied, so you have to remove from the Block calculation those times that you Crit Block.

With a 30% chance to Crit Block, you total mitagation is 18% + 18% = 36%.  Versus the 30% for straight Block (at 100% chance), Crit Block doesn't seem like an especially impressive ability.  Which all leads back to what Ingmar was saying - there are better things to get then Block and much better things to get then Crit Block.

Maybe my understanding is off.  If not, the Warrior mastery certainly seems disappointing.

Block is the last one on the table, so miss/parry/dodge all happen before block. So in a scenario towards the end of the expansion when we have say, 5% miss 20-something% parry 20-something% dodge or something, you could probably reasonably easily push the total including block over 100% when shield block is up.

I don't think our mastery is necessarily bad, it sort of depends how bad the diminishing returns are on dodge/parry and how easy it will be to cap hit and expertise to know exactly where it will land in the hierarchy. But yeah this is why I don't expect it to have DR, it isn't likely to be overpowered.

============================

On cooldown homogenization, I am not super bothered by it (I know surprise surprise). The main things that need to be close together in terms of capability are our general survivability (armor/hp/avoidance and our roughly comparable "block" type mechanics) and our 'oh shit' survivability - the big 2+ minute cooldowns that work on magic damage etc. Threat totals too, I suppose, but that's easy to keep feeling different. The 4 classes still play pretty differently in terms of what buttons we're pushing and why, resource models, the lesser cooldowns, etc., and as long as that stuff doesn't get too 'same-y' then I think the classes are different enough to still have what class you choose to play be meaningful. I don't think the differences are particularly less than those between the healers or cloth casters or whatever.

If there's one they're in danger of getting too similar on it is paladins and warriors probably, which got a little too close in Wrath. Hopefully with the holy power stuff etc. that is a bit lessened.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Sheepherder
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Reply #3751 on: October 30, 2010, 07:36:56 PM

I understood that the Block role is always applied first.  I was looking at it from a best-case perspective where you are able to max block at 100% (Ghost Crawler's comments seem to indicate that was possible) and your Crit Block block is "maxed" (I don't know what max Crit Block is, I guessed in neighborhood of 30%).

As far as I can tell you have the implications right, but the math wrong.

Block/Parry/Dodge/Hit/Miss is the first roll.  The second roll (critical block) only occurs if the first roll resulted in a block, and will turn a block into a critical block.  If I'm reading the new blue post right, block and critical block scale off the same stat, at the same rate.  So your actual chance to (normal) block is the tooltip amount minus your chance to critical block, and your chance to critical block is your chance to block multiplied by your chance to critical block (which should be the same number).

Or:

Code:
[actual normal block] = [tooltip block] - [actual critical block]
[actual critical block] = [tooltip block] x [tooltip critical block]
[actual total mitigation] = 0.3 x [actual normal block] + 0.6 x [actual critical block]

EDIT: I do all my math in decimal form, it makes it easier to express.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 07:39:18 PM by Sheepherder »
Ingmar
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Reply #3752 on: October 30, 2010, 07:50:35 PM

It is done as one roll but block is the one that gets cut off if the total is over 100%.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #3753 on: October 30, 2010, 08:10:59 PM

Yeah you're probably right. This whole thing with Feral Druids is sticking out in  my mind for two reasons.

1. There has been a bunch of municipal elections around me lately, and a friend was asking me if I was going to vote. I said not really, because of disconnected I felt from politics,and that if a politician of any stripe ran on a platform of buffing Feral Druids they would have my vote, as that would have a greater impact on me then most of the bs that they normally deal in. I wasn't expecting that it could go the other way!

2. My sub ran up on the 28th, and I was on the fence about reupping until the xpac drops. Then KA POW! Suck this bears.! That made up my mind. I'm not delusional, I know that I am stuck on crack, but for just this one time I am going to get another dealer's. It's my small little symbolic protest.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Sheepherder
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Reply #3754 on: October 31, 2010, 03:57:43 AM

It is done as one roll but block is the one that gets cut off if the total is over 100%.

No, it isn't.

Were you ever curious as to why the original Critical Block talent granted a 60% chance to critically block?
Typhon
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Reply #3755 on: October 31, 2010, 08:47:23 AM

I understood that the Block role is always applied first.  I was looking at it from a best-case perspective where you are able to max block at 100% (Ghost Crawler's comments seem to indicate that was possible) and your Crit Block block is "maxed" (I don't know what max Crit Block is, I guessed in neighborhood of 30%).

As far as I can tell you have the implications right, but the math wrong.

Block/Parry/Dodge/Hit/Miss is the first roll.  The second roll (critical block) only occurs if the first roll resulted in a block, and will turn a block into a critical block.  If I'm reading the new blue post right, block and critical block scale off the same stat, at the same rate.  So your actual chance to (normal) block is the tooltip amount minus your chance to critical block, and your chance to critical block is your chance to block multiplied by your chance to critical block (which should be the same number).

Or:

Code:
[actual normal block] = [tooltip block] - [actual critical block]
[actual critical block] = [tooltip block] x [tooltip critical block]
[actual total mitigation] = 0.3 x [actual normal block] + 0.6 x [actual critical block]

EDIT: I do all my math in decimal form, it makes it easier to express.

Our math is the same at the point that I was talking about - the theoretical maximum.  Plug my "100% block chance" in for "tooltip block" and "30%" for the tooltip critical block (and since "tooltip block" is 100%, the actual critical block = tooltip critical block).

maximal mitigation from blocking (normal and crit) = 0.3 X (1-max crit block)  + 0.6 X max crit block.

If max crit block is 0.3 this yields:

max mitigation from blocking = 0.3 x (1-0.3) + 0.6 x (0.3) = 0.3 x 0.6 + 0.6 x 0.3 = 0.18 + 0.18 = 36%

I guess I'm still very underwhelmed about the whole thing.  Seems like much more bang for the buck on dodge/parry and if that is the case, why call it a "mastery"?  Using the word "mastery" seems like it should be something noteworthy not "something to get if you max everything important out".

Reg
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Reply #3756 on: October 31, 2010, 08:49:22 AM

This is just about the most boring discussion I've ever endured.
Ironwood
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Reply #3757 on: October 31, 2010, 09:04:57 AM

You've been lucky.  I've worked with accountants for 12 years.  This is lively by comparison.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Ratman_tf
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Reply #3758 on: October 31, 2010, 09:44:46 AM

This is the point where I drift off and wait for the summation on EJ so I can just go rip off the results and go play.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Selby
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Reply #3759 on: October 31, 2010, 11:37:40 AM

This is the point where I drift off and wait for the summation on EJ so I can just go rip off the results and go play.
Yup.  Besides, I'm sure it will change before 4.0.3 is released and likely will change again even further a few months into the expansion.
Shrike
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Reply #3760 on: October 31, 2010, 11:48:34 AM

This is the point where I drift off and wait for the summation on EJ so I can just go rip off the results and go play.

+1.

And, yeah, it'll probably change. For now I say screw it, and I"m concentrating on DK tanking. God help me.
Ingmar
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Reply #3761 on: October 31, 2010, 12:23:41 PM

It is done as one roll but block is the one that gets cut off if the total is over 100%.

No, it isn't.

Were you ever curious as to why the original Critical Block talent granted a 60% chance to critically block?

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying? If your miss dodge parry and block total to over 100%, what you lose are blocks, not misses, dodges, or parries. I am not saying anything about critical block at all.

Seems like much more bang for the buck on dodge/parry

And that's why they have diminishing returns.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 12:25:45 PM by Ingmar »

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Sheepherder
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Reply #3762 on: October 31, 2010, 02:46:00 PM

This is the point where I drift off and wait for the summation on EJ so I can just go rip off the results and go play.
Yup.  Besides, I'm sure it will change before 4.0.3 is released and likely will change again even further a few months into the expansion.

1. EJ doesn't have anyone paying much attention to prot warriors currently.
2. These are the upcoming changes.

RE: Typhon I see where I'm getting confused by your stuff.  You have a multiplication error in there, the figure for block using your made up numbers should be 21%, that's what first threw me off.

Also, your (tooltip) block chance should equal your (tooltip) critical block chance, because as far as I'm aware there isn't anything in the game that buffs either except mastery rating, and that increases both at the same rate.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying?

I am.  Derp.
Shrike
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Reply #3763 on: October 31, 2010, 06:36:42 PM

Enough math. It's making my head hurt more than it needs to (thank you, Dogfish 90min IPA...).

Decided to get it over with and got the protection pally back in the saddle. At first, I was like, you have to be kidding me...what is this shit? After about a dozen elites beaten down, it was starting to make sense and I was really digging on this after about an hour. I really, really, REALLY need a G13, but this has possibilities.

My only concern was the priority system seems awfully slow to spool up. I'd be worried about hyperactive dps pulling aggro off the bat. What's impressive about it is it has a stately progression of abilities that flat out crushes targets. I was seeing some really smokin' hits, and this pally is only in average 240 il gear. Right now I"m running at about 23% dodge, 19% parry, and 40-odd percent shield block with holy shield up. Nothing close to the ideal 102.5% thing, but...it's kinda cool.
Selby
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Reply #3764 on: October 31, 2010, 11:40:53 PM

I'd be worried about hyperactive dps pulling aggro off the bat.
You know... personally I used to worry about this too.  Then I realized that if DPS is going to be stupid, that's THEIR problem and not mine.  Sure, I make sure I'm not fucking up and keeping aggro efficiently, but if some dipshit decides to unleash on mobs BEFORE I've even hit them, that's HIS problem and not mine.
Sheepherder
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Reply #3765 on: November 01, 2010, 12:02:21 AM

Right now I"m running at about 23% dodge, 19% parry, and 40-odd percent shield block with holy shield up. Nothing close to the ideal 102.5% thing, but...it's kinda cool.

82%.  It's closer than you think.
Simond
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Reply #3766 on: November 01, 2010, 01:25:52 AM

2. My sub ran up on the 28th, and I was on the fence about reupping until the xpac drops. Then KA POW! Suck this bears.! That made up my mind. I'm not delusional, I know that I am stuck on crack, but for just this one time I am going to get another dealer's. It's my small little symbolic protest.
If Blizzard hadn't made that fix, every L85 tank would have been a druid, with the other three classes all speccing as dps because there was no point in even trying to keep up with the bears. Yes, they were really that far out of whack.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Rendakor
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Reply #3767 on: November 01, 2010, 12:11:40 PM

Quests involving the elementals and Twilight's Hammer went live today.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Sheepherder
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Reply #3768 on: November 01, 2010, 03:39:46 PM

Sandwich boards.  Awesome.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #3769 on: November 01, 2010, 03:52:24 PM

Quote
there was no point in even trying to keep up with the bears. Yes, they were really that far out of whack.

And I demand a piece of that!  Mob

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Reg
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Reply #3770 on: November 01, 2010, 03:54:58 PM

So WoW is installed all patched up to date but I'm not currently subscribed. Will upgrading to Cataclysm involve any actual software installation or is it just a matter of providing a code for my account?
Ingmar
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Reply #3771 on: November 01, 2010, 03:56:29 PM

So WoW is installed all patched up to date but I'm not currently subscribed. Will upgrading to Cataclysm involve any actual software installation or is it just a matter of providing a code for my account?

More install, I think? Mine is still grabbing a few hundred megs of stuff every time I log in since I signed myself up for Cata.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Merusk
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Reply #3772 on: November 01, 2010, 03:58:02 PM

Yeah, considering that they're encouraging those who didn't get a copy of the CE to buy digitially and "begin the download."  You're going to have an install.   It's all the new zones, mobs and models, since I'm 90% certain the 4.0 patch had the new files for the old world zones.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
DraconianOne
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Reply #3773 on: November 01, 2010, 04:43:46 PM

Allegedly you can pre-patch your client with the digital download content even if you don't buy digitally so that when you get your CE box or whatever, you can just put the code in and go. Barring login server failures etc. I probably read it on MMO-Champ or WoW Insider but cba to look it up right this minute.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Rendakor
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Reply #3774 on: November 01, 2010, 04:45:21 PM

As caladein said earlier, if you want to begin downloading but don't want to buy digital, you can do so with a simple edit:

Stolen from SA by way of EJ:

Quote
Didn't preorder the digital copy?
Want to pre-download all the Cata Data?

Open up Launcher.WTF and set your accountType from "LK" to "CT"
Do the same in config.wtf.

Enjoy.

Other bonus of this is you don't need to log in to start the pre-load if you did buy the digital copy, which is not happening if your account's lapsed.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Reg
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Reply #3775 on: November 01, 2010, 04:51:18 PM

Oh cool. I didn't realize I could buy digitally now and start the download process. I was planning to resubscribe a month or so before it went live anyway so I'll just get the digital expansion when I do that.
DraconianOne
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Reply #3776 on: November 02, 2010, 12:45:38 AM

As caladein said earlier...

Ah, cool. Thanks. Didn't read that far back after I got lobotomised in the face by posts full of theorycrafting.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Sheepherder
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Reply #3777 on: November 02, 2010, 02:18:52 AM

Ah, cool. Thanks. Didn't read that far back after I got lobotomised in the face by posts full of theorycrafting.

Oh, it's on.  Time to bring out the EH vs. avoidance math.  Ingmar, you up to this?  Draw straws for which side each of us gets to argue?
Ingmar
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Reply #3778 on: November 02, 2010, 02:40:31 AM

The only way to win is not to play.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Sheepherder
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Reply #3779 on: November 02, 2010, 03:22:22 AM

Bartle would contend otherwise! why so serious?

So, aside from the absolute and utter awesomeness that the chance to run around the city wedged between a set of poster boards ranting insane and/or inane shit is, this pre-Cataclysm stuff is pretty "meh" compared to ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE, which is still probably the most fun I've ever had playing this game.
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