The LotR Trilogy

[Yegolev]

Right, to me the Arwen stuff goes beyond interpretation of the material and into "let's put a hot chick all through the three movies".

[Brogarn]

Yes, and that would have been totally cool except Arwen was never meant to be the "gets me going" chick. That was Eowyn the valkyrie "I AM NO MAN! WHACK!" Arwen was a frail mincey-pincey elfish princess as a contrast to Eowyn. That delicate elven princess cliche? Yeah, Arwen started that. Daddy's girl. You read about Arwen, you go "Damn Tolkien was so sexist!" Then you read about Eowyn and go "Damn Tolkien wasn't sexist!" That was the thing. Jackson ruined the thing. My biggest gripe. Shield-surfing was downright canon compared to that schlock.

Ok, I can see that. But then again, I didn't understand the attraction between Aragorn and Eowyn in the movies anyways. It felt kind of wedged in to me.

[Ingmar]

I actually have no problem with them basically replacing Glorfindel with Arwen; it takes a certain amount of screen time with a character for the audience to go "OK, she's important in some way to the story" and that lets them do that. Having Glorfindel do that would just lead to 'wait, who the hell is this guy?' syndrome anyway, since he doesn't really come into the story anywhere else.

The thing I don't really care for is the weird soft-lighting semi-flashback "hey audience please remember Arwen is hanging around" scenes in the second and third movies, I don't think those were necessary.

[Murgos]

Ok, I can see that. But then again, I didn't understand the attraction between Aragorn and Eowyn in the movies anyways. It felt kind of wedged in to me.

Exactly.  Eowyn was written as the bad ass blonde warrior princess and Arwen as the ultra-feminine elf-princess.  Aragon was faced with a dilemma in the books, in the movie it was no contest and thus a really wasted plot arc.

Edit: Ingmar, I agree, putting Glorfindel into the movie would have just been fan-service and would have confused a big part of the audience.  But, well, part of the attraction of LoTR (for me anyway) was that the books only represented one part of one tale of an entire world of history and legend and Glorfindel is a major connection to that history.

[Slyfeind]

I think Bakshi did it better, putting Legolas there. Arwen got her storybook scene on the bridge with Aragorn, and her many significant blushy glances across the courtyard. That was just fine and dandy to me.

[Khaldun]

I actually have no problem with them basically replacing Glorfindel with Arwen; it takes a certain amount of screen time with a character for the audience to go "OK, she's important in some way to the story" and that lets them do that. Having Glorfindel do that would just lead to 'wait, who the hell is this guy?' syndrome anyway, since he doesn't really come into the story anywhere else.

The thing I don't really care for is the weird soft-lighting semi-flashback "hey audience please remember Arwen is hanging around" scenes in the second and third movies, I don't think those were necessary.

Some of this was done to beef up Aragorn as a dramatic character who isn't automatically noble and with the right blood and will do the right thing etc., which was pretty much Tolkien's take on Aragorn and Faramir both: he makes them about as interesting as a block of wood, quite on purpose. I actually appreciated that Jackson et al thought that Aragorn needed to have a genuine dramatic arc.

On replacing Glorfindel, don't forget the reported reaction of Hugo Dyson, one of Tolkien's colleagues and friends who used to hang out at The Eagle and the Child (pub in Oxford, worth a visit) to listen to Tolkien and later CS Lewis read some of the drafts of their stuff. When listening to this section of the Fellowship, Dyson said something along the lines of "Oh, fuck, another elf!" when Glorfindel appeared. (There are other less profane versions, but he clearly said something like this.) I'm with Dyson on this one, really. Why not make Glorfindel into someone with long-term meaning to the narrative? Works for me.

[Sheepherder]

Dramatic arc?  He starts off with the hobbits figuring he's a fucking highwayman.  You might have skimmed a few important parts.

As someone who only read a bit of the books because I just couldn't get into Tolkien's writing style, I have to say I thought Arwen looked pretty bad ass and the "If you want him, come and claim him" part still gets me going. "FUCK YA! COME GET SOME!"

/shrug

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair," said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, "You shall have neither the ring nor me!"  Then the leader, who was now half across the ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand.  Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring.  His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.

Witch King: keeping the [Pimp Hand of Necromancy] strong.

[Abagadro]

Ack. Just reading those few sentences reminded me how lousy of a writer that guy was.  Cool characters and world, can't string words together worth a damn.

[Khaldun]

Dramatic arc?  He starts off with the hobbits figuring he's a fucking highwayman.  You might have skimmed a few important parts.

That's the hobbits' issue. You're not really getting what's meant by dramatic arc. Not all characters in stories have them (and that can be fine). But drama's essence lies in choice forced by circumstance, and the sense that at some key point, there are multiple plausible ways a character can choose to be or to do.

In Tolkien, there is never ever any suspense about whether Aragorn will do the right thing at the right time. (Again, same for Faramir.) That's because they have the right bloodline, basically. He has a few tough decisions: let Frodo go, chase after Merry and Pippin; go on the Paths of the Dead; go to the Gates of Mordor after Pellennor.

He's not ever really appreciably tempted by the Ring, he's not generally internally conflicted about much of anything though he's worried about whether the struggle against Sauron will lead to victory; and despite what you guys are saying, I don't think he's ever really much interested in Eowyn. She's sort of set-up as having a slightly pathetic unrequited crush, she's as much in love with him because he seems like an escape hatch out of a pointless life in Rohan as anything else. There's a scene in Return of the King where Aragorn is talking with Eomer about Eowyn post-Witch King and Aragorn pretty much says, "Never been interested in that chick, she's kind of hung up on me".

So the Jackson screenplays tried to make the Eowyn-Arwen choice more genuinely dramatic (partly by making Aragorn think that Arwen's done the chicken run out of Middle-Earth), they chose to make Aragorn more doubtful of his own kingliness, they tried to set him up as more worried about the rightness of his choices, all in service to making his eventual maturation into the King more of a genuinely dramatic triumph.

This particular reworking of the books was pretty good, I think. There's tons of other stuff that I simply don't get what they thought they were doing (like fucking around with how the Ents go to war, etc.) but I get the point here. The one ultra-dumb thing was making Arwen sick with the Sauron-cooties in order to give Aragorn more motivation to fight (like he needs it by the time he gets to the Paths of the Dead).

[Azazel]

Jackson included. Maybe it's because I worked in theatre for a while and could see aspects of that process in THEIR process with their design and deciding how to make parts movie-able, but it took my breath away at times to see just how sincerely everyone involved loved the shit out of LotR. Seriously, watching the technical and designer people talk about it made me slightly sniffly, because they were able to work on a project that I'm sure they all dreamed of (in an abstract sense, not LotR specifically) when they got into the business in the first place. That's rare, and I felt really happy for them.

They had a ton of the props and costumes on display in Te Papa (New Zealand's national museum) in Wellington last time I was there. You're not wrong, there's some serious love and work that went into that stuff, including so many details that would never be picked up by a camera. Star Wars, this wasn't.

[Riggswolfe]

There's tons of other stuff that I simply don't get what they thought they were doing (like fucking around with how the Ents go to war, etc.) but I get the point here.

For what it's worth I always assumed the changes with the Ents were meant to foreshadow Pippin and Merry becoming more important to the storyline and to show how they were changing and getting involved.

[Tale]

"Jackson ruined the thing" and "[Tolkein] can't string words together worth a damn" on one page.

It's about a trilogy - "none of them can act as well as me" might go well as the third?

[UnSub]

Jackson included. Maybe it's because I worked in theatre for a while and could see aspects of that process in THEIR process with their design and deciding how to make parts movie-able, but it took my breath away at times to see just how sincerely everyone involved loved the shit out of LotR. Seriously, watching the technical and designer people talk about it made me slightly sniffly, because they were able to work on a project that I'm sure they all dreamed of (in an abstract sense, not LotR specifically) when they got into the business in the first place. That's rare, and I felt really happy for them.

They had a ton of the props and costumes on display in Te Papa (New Zealand's national museum) in Wellington last time I was there. You're not wrong, there's some serious love and work that went into that stuff, including so many details that would never be picked up by a camera. Star Wars, this wasn't.

It was a huge thing for a lot of the people involved there and perfection / attention to detail was seen as very important even on a huge scale. Certain members of the special effects team had to basically check themselves into rehab at the end of shooting to get over the speed addictions they'd picked up trying to keep up with demand for things like rubber feet or having enough chainmail available. 

Also, I'm hugely impressed that each Ring Wraith cloak had about 50m of fabric in it.

[lamaros]

"Jackson ruined the thing" and "[Tolkein] can't string words together worth a damn" on one page.

It's about a trilogy - "none of them can act as well as me" might go well as the third?

Why don't we go for "the movies were ok in a way, but the movie v book fanbois totally ruin everything associated with this topic".

[Sheepherder]

Ack. Just reading those few sentences reminded me how lousy of a writer that guy was.  Cool characters and world, can't string words together worth a damn.

.

Sort of like Hemmingway to my mind, very terse at times, and you have to pay attention to the nuance and subtext, so it comes off as bland if you're not paying close attention.  On the other hand, he doesn't bloat it the fuck out like Robert Jordan, which is nice.

He's not ever really appreciably tempted by the Ring, he's not generally internally conflicted about much of anything though he's worried about whether the struggle against Sauron will lead to victory; and despite what you guys are saying, I don't think he's ever really much interested in Eowyn. She's sort of set-up as having a slightly pathetic unrequited crush, she's as much in love with him because he seems like an escape hatch out of a pointless life in Rohan as anything else. There's a scene in Return of the King where Aragorn is talking with Eomer about Eowyn post-Witch King and Aragorn pretty much says, "Never been interested in that chick, she's kind of hung up on me".

You actually nailed it with the Eowyn/Arwen thing.  He isn't interested, he pretty much explicitly states it.  However the movie's retcon is a pretty weak dramatic arc regardless.  Aragorn's dramatic arc in the book is entirely about his ascension to the role of king from his life as a ranger, taking on responsibility for others and being forced into decisions he'd rather not make.

[Tale]

"Jackson ruined the thing" and "[Tolkein] can't string words together worth a damn" on one page.

It's about a trilogy - "none of them can act as well as me" might go well as the third?

Why don't we go for "the movies were ok in a way, but the movie v book fanbois totally ruin everything associated with this topic".

My position is that neither Jackson nor Tolkein fucked up the movies or the books. I am immensely satisfied with both. Neither are perfect, but this thread is full of emo bleating.

[Hindenburg]

this thread is full of emo bleating.

This, and I don't even know what bleating means.
-
...to utter the cry of a sheep, goat, or calf or a sound resembling such a cry? The fuck is wrong with you? What, was it too hard to say emo crybabies? You had to pull a fancy word from nowhere?

[Yegolev]

The word "bleating" isn't fancy, it's just used more by people without internet access.

[lamaros]

Ack. Just reading those few sentences reminded me how lousy of a writer that guy was.  Cool characters and world, can't string words together worth a damn.

Sort of like Hemmingway to my mind, very terse at times, and you have to pay attention to the nuance and subtext, so it comes off as bland if you're not paying close attention.  On the other hand, he doesn't bloat it the fuck out like Robert Jordan, which is nice.

 

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair," said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, "You shall have neither the ring nor me!"  Then the leader, who was now half across the ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand.  Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring.  His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.

'Would you please please please please please please please stop talking?'
He did not say anything but looked at the bags against the wall of the station. There were labels on them from all the hotels where they had spent nights.
'But I don't want you to,' he said, 'I don't care anything about it.'
'I'll scream,' the girl said.
The woman came out through the curtains with two glasses of beer and put them down on the damp felt pads. 'The train comes in five minutes,' she said.
'What did she say?' asked the girl.
'That the train is coming in five minutes.'
The girl smiled brightly at the woman, to thank her.

JRRT, almost exactly like Hemingway!

[Abagadro]

Tolkien has nothing in common with Hemingway and "terse" is about as far away of an adjective I'd use for Tolkien as I could think of.

[Tale]

this thread is full of emo bleating.

This, and I don't even know what bleating means.
-
...to utter the cry of a sheep, goat, or calf or a sound resembling such a cry? The fuck is wrong with you? What, was it too hard to say emo crybabies? You had to pull a fancy word from nowhere?

I didn't know you wouldn't understand it, being that I'm from Scotland via Australia and it's not a fancy word to me. Maybe we just have more sheep. Maybe you're pig-ignorant. Moo.

[Paelos]

Ack. Just reading those few sentences reminded me how lousy of a writer that guy was.  Cool characters and world, can't string words together worth a damn.

He was a boring academic, lover of language, and a Beowulf fiend. To say he was lousy and can't string words together? 

[Margalis]

This, and I don't even know what bleating means.
-
...to utter the cry of a sheep, goat, or calf or a sound resembling such a cry? The fuck is wrong with you? What, was it too hard to say emo crybabies? You had to pull a fancy word from nowhere?

I hope this post is a joke.

To say he was lousy and can't string words together?

I think it's fair to say that the strength of LOTR is the narrative and epic scope rather than the actual writing. If you take away that narrative you're left with the Silmarilon (or however you spell it), an incredibly tedious read.

I like authors who create great prose but the "cult of the sentence" has gotten way out of hand in the past decade or so. I think 99% of readers prefer great story to great writing, so saying that he was a better storyteller than writer is hardly a knock.

[UnSub]

I think it's fair to say that the strength of LOTR is the narrative and epic scope rather than the actual writing. If you take away that narrative you're left with the Silmarilon (or however you spell it), an incredibly tedious read.

 

I loved The Hobbit, got through Lord of the Rings and ground my way through The Silmarillion.

[IainC]

Tolkien wasn't writing modern novels, he was writing epics in the style of Homer or the sagas. Saying that Tolkien isn't a good novelist is like pointing out that Maria Callas was a terrible rapper.

[Sjofn]

Ack. Just reading those few sentences reminded me how lousy of a writer that guy was.  Cool characters and world, can't string words together worth a damn.

He was a boring academic, lover of language, and a Beowulf fiend. To say he was lousy and can't string words together? 

I am not sure how the first sentence relates to the second. I love music and find music theory interesting, but I can't string notes together worth a damn.

And yeah, I know the style he was shooting for was HELO THIS IS AN EPIC, but that doesn't make all his flowery bullshit good. :P

[Margalis]

Tolkien's style is really nothing like Homer's.

[lamaros]

Tolkien wasn't writing modern novels, he was writing epics in the style of Homer or the sagas. Saying that Tolkien isn't a good novelist is like pointing out that Maria Callas was a terrible rapper.

This is probably stupider than the Hemingway comment.

[Hindenburg]

Tolkien wasn't writing modern novels, he was writing epics in the style of Homer or the sagas. Saying that Tolkien isn't a good novelist is like pointing out that Maria Callas was a terrible rapper.

I'm calling Poe's law.

[IainC]

What the fuck? it's pretty well known that Tolkien wrote in the epic rather than the modern style with the possible exceptions of The Hobbit and The Father Christmas Letters. I'm not sure why what I said is even slightly controversial.

[Ingmar]

I'd say Lord of the Rings, outside of the "let's sing a song!" breaks, for the most part falls on the not-recreating-the-Prose-Edda side of things. For The Silmarillion and everything else not the Hobbit, your statement makes plenty of sense, I think, but the trilogy isn't trying to be Beowulf. It strikes me more like one of those big sprawling novels of the 1800s, where they cram in everything they can think of from comedy to tragedy to social commentary.

[DraconianOne]

Allegedly Tolkien described it himself as a Romance.

Anyway, what does "writing in the epic" actually mean?

[Lakov_Sanite]

Allegedly Tolkien described it himself as a Romance.

Anyway, what does "writing in the epic" actually mean?

This

[Ingmar]

Allegedly Tolkien described it himself as a Romance.

Anyway, what does "writing in the epic" actually mean?

In the epic style is what Iain actually said. He's talking about writing in the style of Norse and Old English Epics-with-a-capital-E.

[VainEldritch]

Tolkien wasn't writing modern novels, he was writing epics in the style of Homer or the sagas. Saying that Tolkien isn't a good novelist is like pointing out that Maria Callas was a terrible rapper.

Or complaining that Richard Wagner wrote terrible choonz... then listening to Westlife.