Modern Warfare 2, Prestige edition, -or- hey, blow your wad on this!

[LK]

Nonsense, all of it. There is absolutely no reason you can't have both accessibility and customization. Left 4 Dead (and many other older titles) have an option called "quick game". I doubt I have to explain what it is.

Are your video card drivers up to date? Do you have a good enough video card? Is the game even compatible with your video card?  Do you have enough hard drive space? Is anything running in the background that could possibly impact the performance or stability of the game?

Before you get to that Quick Game option, there are a lot of other problems that may crop up that games need to take into account, like the one Gabe relates here. Compatibility is a huge issue with PCs.

I want an experience that is consistent with other users are experiencing and the developer's expectations and not based on the balance of my check book and IT knowledge. This is in no means saying "Fuck PCs," except to say some publishers / developers might be on the same wave length.

[jakonovski]

And console controllers need to that solution until either keyboards/mouse become ubiquitous on consoles or the only market that matters adopts controllers.

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

[caladein]

High end PC gaming continues to die. Fewer people are willing to pay the price of a console just for a video card.

I don't see why we should compare what it costs to natively run a game at ~1080p and above with 4-8x AA to what it costs to run it at ~600p 2x AA.

Who's comparing at that level of depth? To get an FPS to look and play great on a PC is going to cost you more money than it would on a console. Unless your components fall off the back of a truck. Most people instead just make the compromise (a PC that is "good enough" for certain types of games, or their favorite games played with "good enough" levels"). These same people have consoles.

I said that because you'd only go after a $300 graphics card if you wanted to get that much above what graphics a console delivers.  $100 cards in ~$500 systems can easily do the job.

Will it be a "good enough" system?  Yes, but that's only because the ceiling on PC graphics is so fucking high in the first place.

[tgr]

And console controllers need to that solution until either keyboards/mouse become ubiquitous on consoles or the only market that matters adopts controllers.

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

I have only one thing to say about that, and that's "bullshit".

Those who say it's good enough quite simply do not know any better. If MS and Sony were to put out a specially created mouse/keyboard deal which wouldn't be allowed used in anything other than games (kind of like a fucking guitar for guitar hero), and people were allowed to use that for more than 10 minutes, then they're either weird, or they WOULD prefer that method to a pad. Period.

And I'd like to see you play an RTS on the console with a pad.

[Malakili]

Are your video card drivers up to date? Do you have a good enough video card? Is the game even compatible with your video card?  Do you have enough hard drive space? Is anything running in the background that could possibly impact the performance or stability of the game?

I do understand how it can be a headache occasionally, but quite frankly the amount of times I have any problems on my PC is very small.  As long as you do the smallest amount of maintenance and keep everything up to date, you don't have many problems.  Again, I may be jaded by years of working with PCs that doing that sort of thing comes natural to me, and even something like having to do the .ini changes for Borderlands to get acceptable PC performance was at the absolute worst a minor nuisance.  But I understand how a lot of people would look at a .ini file and despair cause they have no idea what the hell any of it means, and admittedly, the console versions are just "pop it in and play."

But of course, the fact that I CAN edit that stuff in the first place remains one of the reasons PC gaming is my style.  Then again, when I got into gaming, it was a scene that was pretty much only populated by computer hobbyists in general, when almost anyone who played games at least new a tiny bit about coding.  Nowadays, gaming is obviously much different.

Also, re: Controller v. KB/M.  I think the point he was making tgr, is that most people JUST DON'T CARE about that extra efficiency that comes with a keyboard and mouse.  They like to sit out their couch and recline with a controller and fuck around and shoot things.  The controller really is good enough for that kind of attitude towards it. 

[Murgos]

Oh hey, look, another PC is dying to console thread.  Haven't seen one of these in a couple of days.

I'll just say the same thing I always say in these threads.  Consoles have ALWAYS (2600 vs AppleII, C64 vs NES?) been better for gaming than PCs and yet, 30 years later, it's still here.

[waffel]

Define 'better'

[Venkman]

tl;dr: it's not about what genres work on consoles. It's about what changes those genres will get to work on the consoles.

See, it's not that - I am a PC enthusiast, and I hate what IW/Activision did to CoD6, but the simple fact is that the genres that Hoax listed above were superior on computers a long time ago.

Were. Back in the days when people were wondering for how much longer anyone would bother making games for the Mac instead of just focusing on the PC. Since then, almost all genres have been changed in their migration to console.

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

I covered this already. When people have only one way to play, they adapt to it. And if its successful, developers refine the games even more for it. Kb&m is not an obsession for super-nerds. It's the default scheme for PC gaming enthusiasts. Every game has to make the compromise, most of them need to work better on controllers than they do kb&m, and the crap that is the Borderlands UI is one of the results. Or the planar one-dimensionality of CoD maps vs, say, UT. Or the kind of RPG that ends up on a console versus the kind on PC. Or how old school RTS games just aren't going to work on consoles (it's been tried) so there needs to be a paradigm shift in what "RTS" means for consoles. And so on. As more MMOs give consoles a shot, they certainly won't have six action bars full of icons, and probably won't require anywhere near 25 person raids.

You're assuming there's some emotional personal motivation here. I'm just stating how it is. I am a PC gaming enthusiast, know it, and accept I'm the minority of the market.

Edit: formatting

[tgr]

Also, re: Controller v. KB/M.  I think the point he was making tgr, is that most people JUST DON'T CARE about that extra efficiency that comes with a keyboard and mouse.  They like to sit out their couch and recline with a controller and fuck around and shoot things.  The controller really is good enough for that kind of attitude towards it. 

I'm still going to say that they just don't know any better, and that a lot would probably use KB+M if they could use it. Console users are used to pads because there isn't any alternative, so they've adapted to this and thus want to continue playing FPS games with a pad. I'm used to KB+M, I'm used to more precise control, I enjoy that, and I want to continue with more precise controls. For me, playing an FPS with a pad is frustrating because it's so irritatingly inaccurate and slowmotion, and it's doubly frustrating to see flightsims, racing sims, and even guitar hero etc have specialized controllers to make the experience better.

Actually, the worst bit is the fact that FPS/RTS gamers aren't getting the choice to use a more efficient controller, and whenever the desire for such is voiced, it's shoved aside with "only super-nerds want that", "it's unbalancing", "you're just a cheater" or even worse, "it'll make the console too much like a computer", and it's all bullshit. Especially the last bit could be easily circumvented by making a specialized controller with, say, 20 keys or whatever, which is forbidden by policy from anything other than games. Voila, not a computer.

I do want to move over to the console because it's so much simpler than a PC, DRM isn't so damn intrusive, graphics are good enough, etc etc etc, but I see no point in doing so if it means I have to grit my teeth every time I can't pan quickly enough or the autoaim selects the incorrect target because the pad isn't as good for FPS/RTS games as I want it to be. And I really don't see why they're being so stubborn about this, because they can make the console my default one-stop gaming machine, they just don't seem to want to.

Unless, of course, choice is bad because variety is hard, and console games aren't supposed to be "hard-core". Pfft.

[Nightblade]

Are your video card drivers up to date? Do you have a good enough video card? Is the game even compatible with your video card?  Do you have enough hard drive space? Is anything running in the background that could possibly impact the performance or stability of the game?

This has little to do with IWnet, or Modern Warfare 2 in general, it's an issue that affects all computer games.

Incidentally, updating your video drivers is pretty infantile; as is reading a simple "requirements" tab. I'm not sure what being "compatible with a video card" is supposed to mean. Drive space is about as plentiful as stupidity in the modern world... Ok, well the background application thing can actually be annoying to people who aren't computer literate.

[AcidCat]

I'm still going to say that they just don't know any better, and that a lot would probably use KB+M if they could use it. Console users are used to pads because there isn't any alternative, so they've adapted to this and thus want to continue playing FPS games with a pad.

Yeah. I was strictly a console gamer for most of my life. Of course I started with consoles as a kid, and even when computers started becoming more common in households, we were poor and couldn't afford one. When I first moved out I was still poor and consoles were just a more cost-effective way to game. So I was weaned on controller for FPS games too. I played Doom first on the fucking Jaguar for god's sake, and later on the Playstation. I played Starcraft ON THE N64. So yes, you can adapt to a controller when it's what you've always known. When I first got a PC for gaming (PlanetSide made me a PC gamer) mouse/kb was actually incredibly awkward. But I of course learned, and gradually saw the light of how much more precise that control method was.

So, I will always feel comfortable playing a FPS with a controller - but when the option is there I will usually pick up the PC version, depending on the game.

One of the big bonuses of PC gaming is you can be discreet and still get the full experience. Everyone rolls out the "consoles are for kicking back on the couch" routine, but when you are married with kids that is fine for a little while, but my wife will only tolerate a warzone in her living room for so long. With the PC I can go off in the corner and throw on my headphones and get just as immersive an experience with better graphics and more accurate controls while wifey watches Jon & Kate. Everyone wins.

[Azazel]

I'll just say the same thing I always say in these threads.  Consoles have ALWAYS (2600 vs AppleII, C64 vs NES?) been better for gaming than PCs and yet, 30 years later, it's still here.

You clearly never owned an Amiga.  

[Azazel]

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

I played my first FPS games using the PS1 pad - Medal of Honor, Doom, Doom Unlimited or whatever the semi-sequel was. It wasn't until later that I got a Mac with Quake 1, and then later a PC with Everquest and then other FPS games that I learned to use WASD. I've been re-learning how to play shooters on the 360 via Borderlands, but even so, the KBM is the better control option.
(I also played Warcraft 2 and Diablo both to completion on the PS1, before I owned a PC).

But really, whether you agree or not, don't be such a jackoff about the way you say it.

[Murgos]

I'll just say the same thing I always say in these threads.  Consoles have ALWAYS (2600 vs AppleII, C64 vs NES?) been better for gaming than PCs and yet, 30 years later, it's still here.

You clearly never owned an Amiga.  

Yeah, "better" was a poor choice of words.  The sentiment I was looking for was 'more popular'.

[schild]

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

You're wrong.

[Azazel]

Perhaps the "best" way doesn't currently exist.

I could see a righthand analog thumbstick/joystick to replace WASD along with a mouse for aim/look.

Of course, that makes it difficult to add jump, reload, etc, etc. You could even have a modifier button to tack lean on to the joystick's L/R movement. Thsi is, if games these days could be balanced for lean, which is clearly too difficult.


Given the choice though, it's the same argument as we've had before, and my preference is the same one I typed about last time...

[Nightblade]

Perhaps the "best" way doesn't currently exist.

I could see a righthand analog thumbstick/joystick to replace WASD along with a mouse for aim/look.

Of course, that makes it difficult to add jump, reload, etc, etc. You could even have a modifier button to tack lean on to the joystick's L/R movement. Thsi is, if games these days could be balanced for lean, which is clearly too difficult.

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F8GFPC100-Nostromo-Speedpad-n52/dp/B0000DC643

It's a shame this device's successor turned out to be a giant piece of crap (The diagonals on the Dpad doesn't work for movement), and that the above is not manufactured anymore... Or to list something more relevant - http://www.splitfish.com/

[Azazel]

Yeah, actually you just reminded me that I bought some silly looking thing years ago to use when I was first getting into FPS games. It was made for RTS games, I think. going to see if I can google it.

here it is - The Microsoft Strategic Commander!


It didn't move very well, was a bit stiff and clunky, but I'd hoped to use it to smoothly FPS around. I guess in theory a better-designed one of these could be a replacement for WASD.

Weren't you going to review the splitfish at one stage? Or was that someon else here?

[schild]

Weren't you going to review the splitfish at one stage? Or was that someon else here?

I commented in the thread about it, the buttons were too analog-stiff and totally unusable (imo) compared to short throw mouse buttons. They should've gotten rid of the pressure shit like regular dualshock buttons have and just stuck with mouse buttons with no pressure. In other words, it was terrible.

[jakonovski]

Or perhaps the pad really is a good way to control an FPS for the vast majority of people? Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

I played my first FPS games using the PS1 pad - Medal of Honor, Doom, Doom Unlimited or whatever the semi-sequel was. It wasn't until later that I got a Mac with Quake 1, and then later a PC with Everquest and then other FPS games that I learned to use WASD. I've been re-learning how to play shooters on the 360 via Borderlands, but even so, the KBM is the better control option.
(I also played Warcraft 2 and Diablo both to completion on the PS1, before I owned a PC).

But really, whether you agree or not, don't be such a jackoff about the way you say it.

Haha, I think I was channeling some old flame wars on the subject. Anyway, the only thing kb&m has is the speed and accuracy of aiming. That can be a gameplay boon or bane, depending on what you want to accomplish (eg. it would be easier to just carry a golf ball into the hole, but what would be the point). Moving with the pad on the other hand is much smoother, and it incorporates rumble. As a non-gaming downside, kb&m is rather unergonomic. Really, the blood circulation of your hands is sooo much better when using a pad.

[NowhereMan]

Wait, in what situation in an FPS does having slow, smooth movement actually present an advantage of over quick and responsive? The ergonomic thing may be true, you definitely suffer with kb+m after a few hours if you don't have it a chair and desk at the right height for your body (chair too low and you blood flow will suffer). I disagree on the pad being just better though, using them for a long time cripples my thumbs but with a nicely set up desk I can (though not too often) play games for hours without suffering horrible pain or blood flow loss.

[schild]

He's making stuff up at this point.

[tgr]

Haha, I think I was channeling some old flame wars on the subject. Anyway, the only thing kb&m has is the speed and accuracy of aiming. That can be a gameplay boon or bane, depending on what you want to accomplish (eg. it would be easier to just carry a golf ball into the hole, but what would be the point). Moving with the pad on the other hand is much smoother, and it incorporates rumble. As a non-gaming downside, kb&m is rather unergonomic. Really, the blood circulation of your hands is sooo much better when using a pad.

Moving with the pad is much smoother? how?

Rumble? What kind of boon is that possibly going to bring over, say, absolutely nothing at all?

non-gaming downside, kb&m is unergonomic? what? Is that why I've spent most of my days at a kb&m without getting any issues whatsoever (apart from when I sit like a complete asstard, but that's my fault)?

I'm questioning whether I want whatever it is you're smoking, it sure is affecting things. Or, as schild says, you're just making shit up.

[jakonovski]

Haha, I think I was channeling some old flame wars on the subject. Anyway, the only thing kb&m has is the speed and accuracy of aiming. That can be a gameplay boon or bane, depending on what you want to accomplish (eg. it would be easier to just carry a golf ball into the hole, but what would be the point). Moving with the pad on the other hand is much smoother, and it incorporates rumble. As a non-gaming downside, kb&m is rather unergonomic. Really, the blood circulation of your hands is sooo much better when using a pad.

Moving with the pad is much smoother? how?

Rumble? What kind of boon is that possibly going to bring over, say, absolutely nothing at all?

non-gaming downside, kb&m is unergonomic? what? Is that why I've spent most of my days at a kb&m without getting any issues whatsoever (apart from when I sit like a complete asstard, but that's my fault)?

I'm questioning whether I want whatever it is you're smoking, it sure is affecting things. Or, as schild says, you're just making shit up.

Analog stick instead of digital buttons? It should be obvious that it's going to be smoother. Rumble is always underestimated until it goes missing. Remember the "we don't need rumble" fiasco by Sony?

Ergonomy really shouldn't even be in question. You might use kb&m just fine, but the world is full of people for whom protracted use causes problems.

[jakonovski]

He's making stuff up at this point.

You guys are such silly absolutists. Most people aren't lifelong pc gamers.

[tgr]

Analog stick instead of digital buttons? It should be obvious that it's going to be smoother. Rumble is always underestimated until it goes missing. Remember the "we don't need rumble" fiasco by Sony?

So you can walk forwards or sideways at less than full speed. I can count the times I've done that on 0 hands. Yes, that's such a useful feature that we're going to force everyone to use a pad. Great idea. Or, hey, even better idea. We could allow those who think that's such a huge feature they need a pad, to use a pad. How's that?

Rumble? For what? "tactile feedback that I'm firing a gun"? I know. I pushed the button. "tactile feedback I'm in a huge-assed explosion"? Er, yes. My sub just gave me feedback to that effect, along with my monitor. I don't need a controller to hop around on the table or in my hands to know that. I don't see why it shouldn't be available for those who might be so inclined to have a giant double-edged vibrator in their hands, however, for whatever use they make of that. More power to them.

Ergonomy really shouldn't even be in question. You might use kb&m just fine, but the world is full of people for whom protracted use causes problems.

So they have issues with kb&m, I'd be willing to bet they were either sitting incorrectly or had underlying issues prior to starting to use a kb&m. Fine, let them use a pad then, if they manage to sit and use it in a more ergonomical fashion. It'd be their choice.

If you haven't noticed yet, there's a key word there: choice. I have none if I want to move my gaming to the consoles, and for that they can die in a fire.

You guys are such silly absolutists. Most people aren't lifelong pc gamers.

I'm going to assume you're ignoring the repeated statement from me saying I'd happily move over to the consoles if they had controllers I didn't think sucked ass through a straw. They currently do not.

Edit: oh btw, pot, meet kettle. You can call him black now:

Kb&m is the obsession of maybe a hundred thousand super-nerds. Nothing more.

[jakonovski]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that console keyboards & mice just wouldn't sell, because people specifically want a games console, not an office tool. There's nothing wrong with using a pad, and the frankly hardcore preference for lightning fast aiming just isn't there.

[tgr]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that console keyboards & mice just wouldn't sell, because people specifically want a games console, not an office tool. There's nothing wrong with using a pad, and the frankly hardcore preference for lightning fast aiming just isn't there.

Here's a thought. How about it was thrown out there as an option, and we let the market decide?

I like that idea. I like it a lot.

[jakonovski]

Here's a thought. How about it was thrown out there as an option, and we let the market decide?

I like that idea. I like it a lot.

It hasn't worked for Dreamcast or the PS3, so I don't think they want to try. But it'd be cool, yeah. I'd love to be able to type properly.

[tgr]

It hasn't worked for Dreamcast or the PS3, so I don't think they want to try. But it'd be cool, yeah. I'd love to be able to type properly.

Look. There it is, only it's disallowed to be used in games by policy (except maybe to chat with).

And just to debunk the "console users don't want it", I want it (and as I've said before, it doesn't even have to be a standard KB, it can be a CUSTOMIZED FPS/RTS/whatever controller made specifically for games), and I'll bet it'd be a hell of a lot more useful than, say ...

Yeah, that's hitting such an absurd amount of games right there. But it's still there, so people can take advantage of it if they so choose.

Choice. It rocks.

[Mrbloodworth]

Last I looked, there was a rather great demand for consoles to support keyboards and mice, one such indicator was the great joy heard around the net when Unreal for ps3 was to support them. I personally think the K&B is best for me, but I grew up on PC shooters, not console. Judging by how many devices that have come out that try to switch the controls one way or the other. If we started seeing more integrated support for K&B I think controllers would start slipping.

In the current generation of consoles (not sure about the xbox) the hardware fully supports it, its the software, and if the developer is inclined to balance the handicaps built in to the controller aiming, with the free form mouse aiming that determines if a game supports it.

There is also a new version of the splitfish.

[jakonovski]

Last I looked, there was a rather great demand for consoles to support keyboards and mice, one such indicator was the great joy heard around the net when Unreal for ps3 was to support them.

Well, considering the sales of UT3 for PS3...

[tgr]

Oh god, these are just so useful in all the other games out there, I can totally use it in fight night 4:



Oh dear, this is usable in flight sims, but surely console gamers can't possibly be hardcore enough to want this, surely the pad is sufficient:


Oh dear, this is usable in racing games, but surely console gamers can't possibly be hardcore enough to want this, surely the pad is sufficient:


Is it sinking through to you yet? Or should I look around for more examples of custom controllers to enhance the experience for these 100k super-nerds?

[Mrbloodworth]

Last I looked, there was a rather great demand for consoles to support keyboards and mice, one such indicator was the great joy heard around the net when Unreal for ps3 was to support them.

Well, considering the sales of UT3 for PS3...

Maybe that is because WHO THE HELL WOULD PLAY UT3 WITH A CONTROLLER when the PC version is where its at?

This isn't Halo.

[jakonovski]

Who's stopping the reign of kb&m then? Seriously. With the plethora of funny controllers available, why isn't kb&m thriving?