Vaping with eCigarettes

[Merusk]

What part should worry me?

My guess would be blood pressure issues, but if it's not an issue with your health anyway then not much.

Wiki leads one to believe that nicotine in general will shorten lifespan and long-term memory but we know how trustworthy that can be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Side_effects

On the upside, reading the paragraph above the linked done it appears as if it enhances arousal, reduces pain and stimulates thought in addition to having sedative affects depending on how fast you intake it.  Weird shit.

ed: Posted just so Nebu and any other actual pharamacology folks can clarify the info that's out there.

[schild]

Yes, there's a thin line between awesome and death in regards to quantity of nicotine.

The depression thing likely has more to do with people becoming smokers (stress, whatnot) than it does nicotine itself. So, as far as "many" side effects go, there is like really just 1 - Nicotine can kill you.

Things I'm allergic to can kill me also, but I don't have the ability to test the herbs in every Italian meal I eat. But I love Italian food and it is awesome.

ahem

yolo

[Nebu]

Bottom line: Nicotine use and abuse can increase ROS (Reactive Oxygen Species) damage. This includes organ damage over time (liver, heart, kidney), DNA damage (including activation of oncogenes), accelerated aging, and others.  This is enhanced in people that happen to be among the 7% of the population deficient in G6PD activity and the few affected by decreased CYP1A2 activity.

[schild]

All of the testing has been done through NRT available on the market currently, correct? Nicotine patches, gum, etc? I only say that because the jury is still very out - as far as I can tell - on nicotine suspended in glycol. Also, patches have roughly 6x NNK values that ecig juice does (though Ecigs have higher values in other carcinogens, negligibly high as far as I can tell).

I mean, end of the day, way better than smoking. Way better than living in Mexico or China.

Edit: Also, I have no clue what you're saying. Less doctor, more like I'm 5.

[Nebu]

Nicotine, like anything, isn't terrible in moderation but it isn't completely harmless either.  Think of it like red meat.  There's nothing wrong with eating it in moderation, but almost nobody eats it in moderation.  The lowest risk is always avoidance. 

Also, if you have bad genetics the effects are magnified.

Better?

[schild]

Well, I mean, that part I got. I meant, what sort of damage / dna damage? Like, what are we talking about here? The potential problems of misuse of basically anything ever (too many eggs, too much better, etc etc) or like, something special to nicotine?

[Paelos]

He means you're going to die with a nicotine needle sticking out of your arm in the bathtub.

[schild]

oh, worse ways to go

[Nebu]

Oxidative stress.

That's the wiki version (which is a bit elementary), but gives a decent overview.

[schild]

I'm completely elementary with this shit. But the thought divide between what you're talking about and where I'm at is the fucking Grand Canyon.

I ctrl+f for "nicotine" and found nothing. I also read into clinical studies of nicotine and the preliminary tests on electronic cigarettes and found basically no mention of this sort of thing a while back. So, yea, I need a farm league education in it.

Edit: Not trying to attack you or rile you up, I'm a literal toddler when it comes to this stuff.

[Nebu]

My opinion: Nicotine in small doses is slightly worse for you than caffeine.  It works your liver a bit and produces some metabolites that can add to your oxidative stress.  Since nicotine is far far far less toxic than the shit you get in tobacco smoke, vaping and the patch are orders of magnitude safer.

You know I don't take this stuff personally.  I enjoy chatting about it.

[MahrinSkel]

HOWEVER, Nicotine on its own - which ecigarettes are at this point - is not harmful.

For the sake of nitpicking, tiny amounts of Nicotine are relatively benign; Nicotine itself is more toxic than arsenic and cadmium, and has some particularly nasty properties such as the capacity to be absorbed through the skin.

Something I learned the hard way after my one and only experiment with a tank-based e-cig leaked all over my pocket (and therefore my thigh and crotch), by the time I figured out what was going on my heart was drumming like a sewing machine and I thought my head was going to explode.

Lethal dose of nicotine is roughly 0.03-0.05mg per pound of body weight, 30-100mg for most people.  A teaspoon (5mL) of my 24mg strength solution is about 120mg, and I figure that that much liguid spilled out of the tank.  How much of that soaked into my skin is impossible to say, but it was somewhere between "too much" and "why are my eyeballs hanging in front of my face?"  Seriously, I have never felt anything like that before, and I hope I never do.  On the other hand, the borderline lithium poisoning I got from messing around with homebrew battery packs wasn't exactly fun, either.

I had to be really careful with my liquid around a toddler, the spare liquid was packed into the back of the freezer and whatever I was using was always in my pockets.  Blu cigs and other disposable cartomizer solutions are likely to wind up the norm in the US just strictly on liability/product safety grounds.

--Dave

[schild]

I had to be really careful with my liquid around a toddler, the spare liquid was packed into the back of the freezer and whatever I was using was always in my pockets.  Blu cigs and other disposable cartomizer solutions are likely to wind up the norm in the US just strictly on liability/product safety grounds.--Dave

And this would be why I'm on the fence of dropping one of my entire paychecks (lol, when that happens) on enough liquid to last 5 years. When I quit "smoking" completely, the black market will pay 10x what I paid for it.

[MahrinSkel]

And this would be why I'm on the fence of dropping one of my entire paychecks (lol, when that happens) on enough liquid to last 5 years. When I quit "smoking" completely, the black market will pay 10x what I paid for it.

I know places you can buy it for less than $75/liter (60mg, 4 liter minimum), USP/Scientific grade.  Hell, I know one supplier for 50 gallon drums.  My problem is actually finding a place that will sell me "just" a liter at a time (I bought 2.5 liters for $250 4 years ago, I'm just hitting the bottom of that now).

When I say mixing my own is cheaper, I don't mean "a little".  The markup these places are charging is insane, even counting flavoring the *bottle* for 15-30mL costs more than what is inside.

--Dave

EDIT: When I was considering getting into it as a business, I realized that the way to play was to get fancy blown-glass perfume bottles, use "organic" flavoring, and sell it for $3-10/mL.

[schild]

Uh, try $10 for 15ml. Or $20-$22 for 30ml. People are buying it by the fucking boat load. If I had a house, I'd be in that business for sure.

[MahrinSkel]

No, not $3 for 10mL.  3 to 10 dollars a mL.  $45-150 for 15mL.  Fancy blown-glass bottles, organic natural flavorings, branded as super-premium "luxury" juice, go straight for the top of the market.

--Dave

[schild]

Oh, I SEE.

Well, the top of the line is based on rarity, not price. So it'd have to be serialized with gold leaf lettering on the bottles. And be better than Radiator Pluid, Grant's Vanilla Custard (which, ahem, I'm "vaping" right now), and Boba's Bounty (which isn't taht rare, ordering from that shop is just nearly fucking impossible because they're idiots).

[MahrinSkel]

It wouldn't have to be better, just not obviously inferior.  Chivas effect, you put out a decent product with the trappings of luxury and spend some money cultivating the *appearance* of exclusivity and rarity, then pump the stuff out as fast as the market will bear.  Sit on the orders for an extra week or two just to make it look like supply is outrunning demand, while you're actually using a 20-liter bucket of the stuff for a doorstop.

Ever hear of "Noka"?

--Dave

[schild]

Oh, I "get" it. I just thought you weren't aware of what the high end of vaping looked like as I misread your post.

[Signe]

So if it only takes 24 hours to get nicotine out of your system, can't you just stop for a day and then smoke stuff that doesn't have any nicotine in it?  Like those herbal smoking blends or some kind of vape-y thing that's nicotine free?  Does this make sense or am I talking bollocks again? 

[Furiously]

Er, you know how I just said that Mrs T's Bakery was the least congesting of eliquids I've tried. That may be the case, but yesterday I got some lemonade flavored liquid from her and it dissolved my CE5 cartomizer. The black plastic from the drip tip was completely dissolving into the liquid and I was smoking black plastic. Awesome.

I TOLD YOU... YOU NEVER LISTEN..

[Engels]

Hey its the first time that's happened to me, Mr Fruity Juice.

[schild]

heh

[schild]

Just got 2 Kamry X10 tanks in (with 15 atomizer heads that work with EVODS and Protanks also).



MAN. This thing is like the draw and looks of a metal vivi nova with the convenience of filling and size of a protank+1ml. Fucking awesome. Also the barreled metal driptip is the shiiiiiit. One of the best non-RBA tanks I've used.

[Ratman_tf]

So if it only takes 24 hours to get nicotine out of your system, can't you just stop for a day and then smoke stuff that doesn't have any nicotine in it?  Like those herbal smoking blends or some kind of vape-y thing that's nicotine free?  Does this make sense or am I talking bollocks again? 

Nicotine addiction is partly psychological, and even though the nic left your system, your body still craves it. (I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on tee vee, so that that with a grain of salt)

I'm thinking of going with the eGo-C. Reviews seem positive, and it looks simple enough. I really want to buy nicjuice by the bottle and save me some serious money. I smoke a pack a day, and it's almost reduntant to say that shit is expensive.

[schild]

Honestly, if you dont mind something bigger with better batteries,  a vamo with a k10 or protank. I cant recommend a non-variable battery like an ego-c.

[MahrinSkel]

Are the tank systems really that much better these days?  I am getting tired of my DCC's, I'm about to have to order another batch (I use about $80 worth a year), and the burning sponge material when they're new or dry can't be good for me.  My current rig should be compatible with anything for the ego, what would you recommend for stepping into that type of thing?

--Dave

[schild]

This goddamn Kamry K10 is incredible. I dont know if its in stores yet. I got it through a coop buy. Otherwise, Innokin iClear 30 and Kanger protanks are decent. Tank on the latter needs a GOOD washing in hot water before use.

Edit: k10 just got gurgly. Apparently needs a refill. Man, i expected juice in the mouth when it hit the end. Nope. Huh.

[schild]

Ok. Yup. Gets gurgly when it needs a refill. Juice up in mah mouth.

[schild]

So if it only takes 24 hours to get nicotine out of your system, can't you just stop for a day and then smoke stuff that doesn't have any nicotine in it?  Like those herbal smoking blends or some kind of vape-y thing that's nicotine free?  Does this make sense or am I talking bollocks again?  

Nicotine addiction is partly psychological, and even though the nic left your system, your body still craves it. (I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on tee vee, so that that with a grain of salt)

I'm thinking of going with the eGo-C. Reviews seem positive, and it looks simple enough. I really want to buy nicjuice by the bottle and save me some serious money. I smoke a pack a day, and it's almost reduntant to say that shit is expensive.

Seriously, I hope you hop back in this thread before buying an Ego-C, the industry is at the point where that's a big 'ol waste of money. But, you know, whatever gets you to quit smoking is amazing. There is 0-nic liquid. That's what most people do (I don't know many "vapers" that completely quit vaping, the physical part of smoking - regulated breathing, hand usage, etc - is the hardest thing to break).

[schild]

Alright, back on the computer and not the tablet.

The Kamry K10.

Kamry is a house that builds higher-than-normal quality clones. They are Chinese and don't give a fuuuuuck about their reputation. In fact, they just put up a fucking letter warning people about knockoffs of THEIR knockoffs at Fasttech.com (amazing vendor of Chinese shit). Seriously, they cloned the Empire Mod ($200 mech mod from New York I think). It's pretty ugly, but anyway they cloned it as the K100. Fasttech was selling like 100% perfect clones of the K100 as the K100 because China doesn't actually have laws. It's a crazy land where you can make anything at any factory because they have an infinite labor force and no one to enforce shit on silly ass industries like this.

ANYWAY, Kamry cloned the Protank. Like 5 different ways. So much so that you can just shove an EVOD or Protank head into this motherfucker and it just worked. However, it looks nothing like a protank. It looks like they cloned the tank portion of the iHybrid from Faceless, and then proceeded to shove pyrex glass behind the sleeve, and put a goddamn barrel drip trip on it (also a clone) and constructed the center pole to match the Protank. Oh, and the air intake is a ripoff of the Vivi Nova. This thing is a goddamn Best Of of Ecigs but looks like a fucking Frankenstein. Honestly, there's some bullshit weird ass design going on in China. HOWEVER, now that I've finished a full tank (a whopping damn 3.45ml), I can say pretty comfortably that this is the best tank I've ever used.

It takes about 45 seconds for the wick to get fully saturated. I basically chain vaped that bitch afterwards (for those keeping score of shit I endorse, I was vaping Pillow Mints (that steeped for 3 weeks) from Velvet Cloud Vapor out of San Francisco (it was gross before 3 weeks, now it's like, really fucking good)). Not a single dry hit. Not a single drop of liquid in the mouth or out of the air intake - until I hit the last few drops. It got gurgly when it was time to replace the wick. I wanted to see how long it would go, and got about 8 drags before I got some hot liquid in the mouth.

Dumped the remaining liquid on a paper towel to see how far down it goes. About 6 drops (!!!!!) came out. That's absurd for something that cost me $4.98 in a co-op (so probably about $10-$14 retail).

Also, I vaped it so long that the next flavor I put in (Black and White Cookie from Alice in Vapeland had not a single hint of Pillow Mint (a fucking mild menthol!) within 2 vapes.

Point is: Buy this fucking thing.

Edit: Also! It's a cool to warmish vape that provides the best flavor I've had from an atty that isn't an RBA with wrapped ekowool or direct dripping. If any of that is relevant to anyone.

[schild]

BONUS - Here's a list of my favorite liquids and where to buy them (trust me when I say I wouldn't want to figure out how to make these myself):

The Vapor Chef (this guy is a WIZARD - A WIZARD I TELL YOU)- Hobbes' Blood & Honey Pearry

Alice in Vapeland (their hours blow, they open at Tuesday at like midnight central time or some shit, also slow as fuck) - Black & White Cookie & Pun'kin Tumble

Velvet Cloud Vapor (hippies, the lot of them) - Mewlews Magic - this is a motherfucking Chocolate Covered Donut

Grant's Vanilla Custard (comes out in batches, good fucking luck / also, UK based) - Grant's Vanilla Custard - this took a full goddamn month of steeping, but it's basically the best flavor I've ever had. I had a chance to order more but it hadn't steeped long enough and now I feel like a putz. I hope it lasts, I have 120ml and burn through like 5-6ml a day when I'm jonesing it.

Vapor Train (ignore the name of this site, their customer service is great / name just BLOWS) - Choo Choo Crunch

while you're there

Uncle Junk's Genius Juice (same site as the last one) - Monica's Eyes

Next on my list of vendors/brewers to try:
The Plume Room
The Standard Vape (Stndrd Vape) / Jameson's Irish Vapor (same dudes)
Flavorz by Joe
Faded Vapes

[Ratman_tf]

Alright, back on the computer and not the tablet.

The Kamry K10.

Kamry is a house that builds higher-than-normal quality clones. They are Chinese and don't give a fuuuuuck about their reputation. In fact, they just put up a fucking letter warning people about knockoffs of THEIR knockoffs at Fasttech.com (amazing vendor of Chinese shit). Seriously, they cloned the Empire Mod ($200 mech mod from New York I think). It's pretty ugly, but anyway they cloned it as the K100. Fasttech was selling like 100% perfect clones of the K100 as the K100 because China doesn't actually have laws. It's a crazy land where you can make anything at any factory because they have an infinite labor force and no one to enforce shit on silly ass industries like this.

ANYWAY, Kamry cloned the Protank. Like 5 different ways. So much so that you can just shove an EVOD or Protank head into this motherfucker and it just worked. However, it looks nothing like a protank. It looks like they cloned the tank portion of the iHybrid from Faceless, and then proceeded to shove pyrex glass behind the sleeve, and put a goddamn barrel drip trip on it (also a clone) and constructed the center pole to match the Protank. Oh, and the air intake is a ripoff of the Vivi Nova. This thing is a goddamn Best Of of Ecigs but looks like a fucking Frankenstein. Honestly, there's some bullshit weird ass design going on in China. HOWEVER, now that I've finished a full tank (a whopping damn 3.45ml), I can say pretty comfortably that this is the best tank I've ever used.

It takes about 45 seconds for the wick to get fully saturated. I basically chain vaped that bitch afterwards (for those keeping score of shit I endorse, I was vaping Pillow Mints (that steeped for 3 weeks) from Velvet Cloud Vapor out of San Francisco (it was gross before 3 weeks, now it's like, really fucking good)). Not a single dry hit. Not a single drop of liquid in the mouth or out of the air intake - until I hit the last few drops. It got gurgly when it was time to replace the wick. I wanted to see how long it would go, and got about 8 drags before I got some hot liquid in the mouth.

Dumped the remaining liquid on a paper towel to see how far down it goes. About 6 drops (!!!!!) came out. That's absurd for something that cost me $4.98 in a co-op (so probably about $10-$14 retail).

Also, I vaped it so long that the next flavor I put in (Black and White Cookie from Alice in Vapeland had not a single hint of Pillow Mint (a fucking mild menthol!) within 2 vapes.

Point is: Buy this fucking thing.

I might if all that shit you typed made any sense to me at all. This is why I'm so greatful for the disposable Blus. I don't have to have another fucking thing to know like Trek nerds know Klingon history in order to just fucking vape.

*Edit* It's not just you, Schild. It seems every time I go online to check out vaporizers I get conflicting opinions and technical blabble.

[schild]

I feel like that was pretty clear. BUT, I had the same problem when I decided to like, get an actual Ecig instead of a disposable. So I'll tell you what I read that made sense.

There are 2 parts to an ecig. The battery and the tank. Most batteries (from Ego Cs to high end $225 Chi Yous) have something call 510 threading. Basically every tank ever made fits into 510 threads (the part where the tank screws into the battery). What I was talking about was the tank portion (see a picture in an earlier post). One of the reason basic Ego Batteries and Vivi Nova tanks do so well is its basically where EVERY converted smoker starts (unless there's an intermediary period where you use disposables).

Almost none of what I said was relevant to you other than the following: A Kamry X10 is a good tank. It fits into nearly any battery on the market. Put juice in it. Vape.

Vaping isn't complicated, it's not like a fucking language or Trek bullshit. Part of the problem is that there's no real "levels" to vaping. Sure, you could be rebuilding shit and futzing around with ohm readers and stuff, but at the end of the day you're still screwing a tank into a battery and pressing a button to fire it.

Disposable blus use basically the exact same tech, it's just concealed.

[Engels]

Thanks for all the good info Schild. I have been waiting for someone to go into that level of detail for a while.

Maybe I missed something tho, is this K10 not available yet? I would like to look into it. I just tried my first Kanger and I'm pretty luke warm on it, tbh. Metal tip tastes metallic. Duh. Also, why'd you say you need to wash a Kanger before use? I mean, that ship has sailed now but just wondering what kind of cancerous growth I can be expecting.