Well that's that then (Mark Jacobs leaves EA)

[Venkman]

People like Paul and his shenanigans build hype for the game.  The real problem is that the MMO industry just sucks.

The real problem is the same problem it's ever been: a publishing and marketing plan that casts a far wider net than the actual product has any right to have. Without the big ass plan the buyout brought to WAR, the game would have started as a quaint little sub-forum here, and quietly moved to the Graveyard around February due to general malaise about the game, and been a Steam deal two weeks ago. And that would have been fine. Couple of hundred thousand people bouncing between it and other third-order games until they receded to more server mergers and eventually had to make the choice between DAoC or WAR.

The game was what it was. The mistake was positioning it as something well more than it had any ability to be. And in the world of large company politics, that's harder to recover from than any sort of missed potential with your consumers.

So I guess the question to ask, is what sort of MMO can be made with a 25-30 person team?  And how the hell would you do it?  What sort of niche would you try for?  And if you're not trying for a niche, what the hell are you thinking?

A lot of them are. Not WoW nor any truly big budget game, but the market isn't saturated with $60mil offerings either.

[UnSub]

It's his belt buckle. ROCK STAR. That's what he's trying to be.

The belt buckle was a key point for me too.

However, I don't hate Barnett. He's unprofessional in a number of ways and is a hype machine, but the game design ultimately lies at the feet of Jacobs as the head of the studio. Barnett wasn't the only one to open his mouth and say stupid things; Jacobs should have known a lot better. And reign Barnett in.

Punch Barnett in the dick? No. Return him to GW consultant status and say thanks but goodbye. I figure Barnett knows that the WAR train will end sooner or later, so is prepared for it.

Sanya Weathers's MMO Underbelly: No Endgame For MMO Devs

Was it just my imagination, or did she basically just say "Fuck you Mark, couldn't of happened to a better guy"?

Sanya's been covertly critical of Mark for a long time - no names, but her target is often clear. Her comments on the announcement were seen as being gleeful.

[Sheepherder]

Your first post was in THE Warhammer thread. It would be best if you didn't give advice like that, hombre.

Key difference: I'm not being paid to control the Vault.  Otherwise I wouldn't have broken my lurk out of sheer rage in order to slag some random starfucker who used Final Fantasy as an example of good player-driven, character based narrative.

Instead, I would have shown up to throw completely fucking random ideas at you, while trailing a thousand frothing retards which you would have to go final solution upon.  Speaking of which, I can finally see MJ's point about no official forums now, it would warm the cockles of my black heart to shit on somebody's floor and make them clean it up, while telling them that I'll just stop coming if they're going to act like that.

[HaemishM]

The game was what it was. The mistake was positioning it as something well more than it had any ability to be. And in the world of large company politics, that's harder to recover from than any sort of missed potential with your consumers.

The mistake was also in building it such that you needed 500k subscribers to be considered a success by the President of the company. That's bad business because Jacobs should have known better.

As for Barnett, that's not hype. He tries to be hype, but hype generally doesn't involve pissing upon your current and future customers from a very great height while being the most unprofessional gasbag imaginable and throwing co-workers under the bus.

[Azazel]

I've been laid off in the biz. Recently. I know the hurt, confusion and angst it causes, especially for the huge bulk of people caught in the crosshairs who clock in day after day busting their asses.. That said, Mark Jacobs is one of precisely four people (Gaute, McQuaid and that tubby fuck Barnett being the other three) I'm not going to shed a goddamned tear for. Fuck those guys. They ran games into the ground, acted like fucking rock stars while doing it and didn't show the slightest empathy for those nine to fivers they fucked over.

The less people who made MMOs in 2001, ESPECIALLY the rock star breed, that are left in the industry in 09 the fucking better. Good riddance.

Well fucking said.


There are two (very nice looking) ladies and one cunt in the above picture. Check out the belt buckle that the cunt is wearing.


edit - ok I've caught up to the thread now. Was out of town for 3 days, and had that pic in my email (WAR newsletter) when I got back. The thread wasn't up to the belt buckle when I read MA's post.

[angry.bob]

While they are certainly very attractive, the choice to use two filipinas to represent a High Elf and a Dark Elf may be symptomatic of the many decisions that were made where the worst possible option was the one that was used. Also, the DE staff is really bad.

[rattran]

Looks to me like the staff is going >_<

[Triforcer]

Dear f13,

When commenting on the picture in question, could you stop reposting it?  If one must receive a burst of explosive diarrhea right in the mouth, one would like to not keep repeating the experience. 

Sincerely,
Everyone

[angry.bob]

Because Tier 1 was fun as hell. If they ever fix all the other stuff I'd resub.

Exactly. The Tier 1, and even Tier 2 game were just about perfect. I've yet to hear anyone have bad stuff to say about the game at that stage. Honestly, I consider the game at that point to be much better than WoW. It's not until you get to the grind, oRvR zergs looking for anything to fight, etc. that it gets bad.

The biggest roadblock to resubbing for me is actually the loss of my character names. I had some really great names that I've used all the way back to UO, but because of mergers and whatnot they've been renamed randomly and then had the letter "x" added to the end in a subsequent server merge. I know it's technically the same toon, but the attachment I have to "Foxglove" the Shadow Warrior is considerably greater than to "AenthylX" the Shadow Warrior. Give people free renames for  god's sake.

[Musashi]

I have a firm rule about people with a random x in their name that doesn't otherwise belong there.

It's kind of the same rule I have about people with the Jenkins title in wow.

[Lantyssa]

Wait, they renamed characters randomly and added a letter, but didn't offer free renames?  Please tell me one or both of us missed something.

[jakonovski]

Man I was soooooooooo bored tonight. Then I rediscovered this thread. 

[Bzalthek]

All I know is whoever hired those chicks to be their elf cosplay models needs a fucking raise.

[schild]

my avatar

no

[jakonovski]

Oh poop, I knew I should've worked more than 15 minutes on the animation.

[schild]

Yea, that would've helped.

[DLRiley]

Because Tier 1 was fun as hell. If they ever fix all the other stuff I'd resub.

Exactly. The Tier 1, and even Tier 2 game were just about perfect. I've yet to hear anyone have bad stuff to say about the game at that stage. Honestly, I consider the game at that point to be much better than WoW. It's not until you get to the grind, oRvR zergs looking for anything to fight, etc. that it gets bad.

The biggest roadblock to resubbing for me is actually the loss of my character names. I had some really great names that I've used all the way back to UO, but because of mergers and whatnot they've been renamed randomly and then had the letter "x" added to the end in a subsequent server merge. I know it's technically the same toon, but the attachment I have to "Foxglove" the Shadow Warrior is considerably greater than to "AenthylX" the Shadow Warrior. Give people free renames for  god's sake.

Lol, both AoC and WAR would be fundmentally better games if progression ended at level 20. But hey good thing mythic doesn't know that right? Mark Jacob even said himself that WAR would have done better if it had 120 levels to grind 

[Numtini]

Mark Jacob even said himself that WAR would have done better if it had 120 levels to grind

I don't think I'd have lasted to 10 if there were that many.

[palmer_eldritch]

They fired Jacobs and merged Mythic with Bioware, under Bioware's leadership.

Ie, killing off Mythic. If that was true.

That doesn't mean the WAR live team was disbanded, the game put in maintenance mode, or anything of the kind.

Who suggested it did?

Also, can you read?

[Venkman]

It's not about the tiers. It's about the player density. Tier 1 and 2 alone suck, because you don't have any of the "magic" that comes from random PQ wins and random sparks of violence in RvR lakes. But for those to happen consistently required some fundamental rethinks on zone design and level disparity. Fewer lakes, fewer PQ areas by a lot, mentoring, and better level design to funnel players together.

Old argument. March 2008 old.

[WindupAtheist]

Wait, they renamed characters randomly and added a letter, but didn't offer free renames?  Please tell me one or both of us missed something.

Yeah, can someone comment on this? I mean I know I'm setting myself up for a punchline, but NOBODY can be THAT stupid right?

[Feverdream]

Wait, they renamed characters randomly and added a letter, but didn't offer free renames?  Please tell me one or both of us missed something.

Yeah, can someone comment on this? I mean I know I'm setting myself up for a punchline, but NOBODY can be THAT stupid right?

I could be remembering this incorrectly, but I think the re-names with the "x" are placeholder names assigned to characters during the transfer process, and you're expected to choose your own name before you log the character in for the first time on the destination server.

Then again, I may have completely muddled my recollection.  I haven't had anything to do with the game in months.

[angry.bob]

Wait, they renamed characters randomly and added a letter, but didn't offer free renames?  Please tell me one or both of us missed something.

Erp, it's me. My guys have been through 2 server mergers that I'm aware of. When transferring you get to keep your name as long as it's not already taken on the new server. IF it is, you have to rename your toon. By now everyone here should know what it's like trying to find an unused name. After 30 minutes of trying to find one that wasn't taken I just used the random name generator on the toons I had too. For the second server merge I just said fuck it, I've had enough. I let my sub lapse and didn't transfer them. I logged back in for the 10 day free call to arms thing, and they were all on new servers again, except this time they had the names I had renamed them too, but in most cases had one or two "x"'s at the end of their names. I'd imagine that when they moved them for me if a name was taken, they added an "x" and if someone had transfer ed before me and had an "x" added on their name, I got "xx".

Sorry for the confusion, the way I wrote about it was misleading.

[Redgiant]

Because Tier 1 was fun as hell. ...

Exactly. The Tier 1, and even Tier 2 game were just about perfect. ...

T1 and T2 were so much fun because at that stage it was all about pure PvP fighting. Loot didn't matter yet. Complicated rules didn't matter yet. Time sinks didn't matter yet.

For all WARs complexity, it turns out the simplicity of the low level fights was the most fun.

[Fraeg]

I know I am repeating myself but I still can't wrap my head around the fact that a company that wasn't being run by pothead teenagers let Captain Cheesedick anywhere near a webcam/journalist/interview/etc.

[UnSub]

Old argument. March 2008 old.

Yeah, we keep running over the same ground because Mythic keeps showing an inability to design content that actually fits with how players behave.

I did enjoy the PvP aspects, but got to the start of rank 2 and couldn't PvE anymore. WAR had some of the most basic PvE design I've seen in a recent MMO.

[March]

Old argument. March 2008 old.

Yeah, we keep running over the same ground because Mythic keeps showing an inability to design content that actually fits with how players behave.

I did enjoy the PvP aspects, but got to the start of rank 2 and couldn't PvE anymore. WAR had some of the most basic PvE design I've seen in a recent MMO.

It's clear that MBJ thought that the PQ concept would positively revolutionize PvE; and, while it is indeed a nifty incremental innovation, it fails as a complete substitute for PvE.  And, to make matters worse, the PQ virus that hit every Tier, Zone, Pairing, Race, Chapter, segment, level, and group-size actually made PQ's less helpful than they could have been; to wit, it wasn't enough that you did a PQ, you had to do this PQ for this tier for this zone for this...ad infinitum to get the reward thingy.

The fact that Mark publicly laid claim to his invention of this game innovation seems to me to be one clear example of where a good idea was driven into the swamp by the absolute certainty from the one person who could not be gainsaid that at least points to one visible marker of the MBJ effect.

That said, I think y'all are wrong to focus on Paul's belt-buckle... I believe he is trying to be ironic; perhaps he even fails at irony, but hey... any stick with which to beat the dog.

The sunglasses are plenty good to beat him with... an inside/beta/pre-launch joke that might have appealed to the rabid crowd following the hype is hardly worth propagating after your game has [mostly] failed.

I'm sorry MBJ lost the company he built; no amount of money will soften that blow.

[Falconeer]

The Tier 1, and even Tier 2 game were just about perfect. I've yet to hear anyone have bad stuff to say about the game at that stage.

Hate to disagree but I was shocked 3 minutes into the game, when I hit the first mob and realized it was the most bland combat in a mmorpg since the first generation, and made the LotRO seem like an action game, let alone WoW. That was the dealbreaker to me, never reached the point where the grind hits you, never had problems with the loot, never realized how broken the PvP was or anything else... I got to level 11 and realized how utterly boring the combat was. And since fighting is what you do 80% of the time in this game (the other 20% being running), I realized I was fooling myself hoping for the poor visual and audio cues and the totally unengaging actions to miraculously become fun. The combat in WAR is as visceral as Paintdryer Tycoon.

At that stage, the game for me was lots of beautiful and promising menus and features (and that's why I really wanted to like it. I bought two boxes, a few around here know why), plagued by the pathetic combat. That's why I will never be able to enjoy WAR. Slow and bland as a browser game.

[Nebu]

I'm going to bet that he meant Tier 1 & 2 pvp.  The Pve in WAR is terrible, just as we'd expect from Mythic.  Noone in their right mind would PvE in a Mythic title any more than was absolutely necessary.  It's just not their thing.

[Falconeer]

The combat wasn't any different for me in PvP. I've been there. Same frustration.

[Lantyssa]

To be fair, he probably did mean PvE.  I myself never played DAoC.  Tier 1 is the time for learning, so not having advanced AI isn't all that surprising.  Plenty of other games ramp up, and it's not like AI is stellar in any MMO (see previous rants).  But it didn't get better, and around Tier 2 is when the willing disbelief started to fall off because by then you should know the basics.  Then you hit Tier 3 and the disparity is worse because you have the majority of your abilities...

I liked the PvP combat, but my two mains were a Swordmaster and a Disciple.  I had some amazing small battles where I won because I outlasted opponents.

[Falconeer]

I tried all classes up to level 10 or something, Swordmaster is the one I lasted until 14 I think. Seriously, to me (and just strictly combat-wise) audio, visuals and general feedback was so slow, lacking and bland that I really couldn't do it. You could say that was the consequence of coming from AoC, but even now I think every MMORPG released after 2003 has a more engaging combat than WAR's. PvP or PvE, same thing.

[Numtini]

The one thing I did like about War combat was it moved slow enough in PVP that you could actually do something. I don't know if later equipment made that impossible, but it was a vivid and positive contrast to WoW where the average combat consisted of a one second combat where an uber twink one shotted me. Unfortunately when you translate that pace to PVE, it's ungodly boring.

[Threash]

T1 was fun because:

a) No class had any cc at all, none whatsoever.

b) There was no keeps and forts, keeps and forts transform the game into a tank/back line healer/ranged AOEr game only.

c) The rvr lakes were small, you could actually get from one BO to another in the three mins you have to defend, in t4 it takes you 2 and a half mins to run from one place to another and then you have zero chance of wiping the defending force in time

d) You don't have 40 level worth of abilities that do almost the same thing, games really need to go back to giving you stat/skill points when you level rather than spreading out your abilities all the way to max level, some classes change drastically at level 40 (my marauder got their pull and my SM got his two hander defensive skill).  You should have all your abilities by level 10 tops, and having three bars worth of bullshit that does almost the same thing is ridiculous.

Edit: e) We played t1 when the game launched and it had a healthy population, that helped a ton.

[Malakili]

I had plenty of fun in WAR...then I hit tier 3, leveling slowed to a crawl, and Tor Anroc was the only thing to do.  I actually ground it out, finally when to t4, and then realized the end game was terrible.   Tier 1 and 2 were great fun, it just had no staying power for me.

I know that was a long time ago, and I've missed plenty of changes...but I just haven't been able to bring myself to go back to the game.