Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 16, 2019, 01:00:15 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
Donate! | Shop: Amazon
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  But is it Fun?  |  Topic: Civilization IV - Firaxis - PC 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Civilization IV - Firaxis - PC  (Read 28842 times)
Rendakor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9578


Reply #70 on: June 13, 2009, 04:21:38 PM

Dwarf Fortress's UI is much worse than Civ IVs.

Check out my podcast: ADD&D, Attention Deficit Dungeons & Dragons!
"I think it's time for a dose of F13 RED PILL MOTHER FUCKERS" ~cosapi
Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 17736

sentient yeast infection


WWW
Reply #71 on: June 13, 2009, 10:51:10 PM

DF's UI certainly isn't pretty, but it has the advantage of all being more or less in one place, so you can see the full list of options available to you pretty easily, even if you have to mess with them to figure out what they do.  It invites exploration.  I think what gave me a poor experience with Civ was that I had no motivation to go looking for any of that depth I'd heard about, and wasn't even sure where I'd start looking.  Aside from combat (which was still clumsy as fuck) nothing I experimented with gave me any better results than just auto-accepting whatever the prompts told me to do.  Shit, I ended the game with a higher score than every other civ on the board put together, and most of what I did in the game for three hours could have been done by a drinky bird.  With most games you'll generally be given some sort of goal that encourages you to go exploring, or you'll get some sort of feedback when you try new things, or both.  Civ was pretty much a brick wall.

Hell, it wouldn't even give me errors when I tried to do stuff that for whatever reason I couldn't do.  Just as an example, I ended up with a bunch of stealth bombers toward the end because the prompts kept suggesting that I might like some, so when it came time to try nuking another country, I figured I could use the "recon" command the bomber has to go scout out my targets.  So I find one of my bombers (locating and selecting my own units always seemed to be an inordinately painful process, btw) click that command, and then click the dark region of the globe I think my enemy's in.  Nothing seems to happen.  Did it just get queued up and need a few turns to complete?  I skip a few turns to see.  Bomber is still sitting there.  I tell it again to go over there.  Nothing.  What the fuck?  After a few minutes of poking I figured out that my planes just can't fly that far.  Now, in any other game, I'd have gotten an error telling you "ye cannot recon ye continent," and maybe if the game was really helpful "try using X instead".  But the folks who made Civ 4 seem to assume that the only people playing their game are long-time Civ fans who will already know the uses and limitations of each unit.  

Which is fine.  My position is simply that there should be a warning on the box or something if that's the case.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Teleku
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10115

https://i.imgur.com/mcj5kz7.png


Reply #72 on: June 14, 2009, 12:14:39 AM

I love Civ 4, and think it's even better than Civ 2 (which was great).   You can die now.  why so serious?

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Valmorian
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1163


Reply #73 on: June 14, 2009, 11:19:23 AM

Just to stir further controversy, I think the best version of Civ is Civilization Revolution. 
Murgos
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7474


Reply #74 on: June 14, 2009, 02:34:33 PM

 Nothing seems to happen.  Did it just get queued up and need a few turns to complete?  I skip a few turns to see.  Bomber is still sitting there.  I tell it again to go over there.  Nothing.  What the fuck?  After a few minutes of poking I figured out that my planes just can't fly that far.  Now, in any other game, I'd have gotten an error telling you "ye cannot recon ye continent," and maybe if the game was really helpful "try using X instead".  But the folks who made Civ 4 seem to assume that the only people playing their game are long-time Civ fans who will already know the uses and limitations of each unit.  

Or, when you clicked the bomber you could have seen the brightly lit circle around it that shows you the range.  Inside circle good, outside circle bad.  Planes are not boats, they need to be stationed at an airfield (or carrier) and have to return to it at the end of their turn.

They are incredibly powerful as it is and having them be able to make 'multi-turn moves' would not only be unrealistic but game breaking.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 17736

sentient yeast infection


WWW
Reply #75 on: June 14, 2009, 02:56:06 PM

The circle was what eventually clued me in, but I didn't see it the first time because I'd scrolled over to the other side of the map before hitting the command (meaning no part of the circle was even on my screen).  And I didn't know to look for a circle because none of the other units I'd used had had any sort of range limitation like that.  And, like I said, it couldn't be bothered to give me an error message after I'd clicked (and the circle goes away then IIRC), so I didn't even know anything was wrong right away.

I actually tried to put the bomber on a carrier to ship it over to where it could be useful, but apparently bombers don't like to go on carriers?  Either that or the command to "re-base" or whatever isn't the right way to put a plane on a carrier, even though it seemed like the obvious choice.  I don't know, because it didn't give me any sort of feedback when I tried it.  I think that was about the point where I said "sadf" and tried to get the game over with ASAP so I could uninstall it.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27014

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #76 on: June 15, 2009, 01:12:30 AM

Civ combat always left me confused as to what made the difference between winning and losing beyond a screw-up probability generator. At times you could pull the crank and just get ridiculous results like tanks losing to musket dudes. Very odd shit.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
Xuri
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1197

몇살이세욬ㅋ 몇살이 몇살 몇살이세욬ㅋ!!!!!1!


WWW
Reply #77 on: June 15, 2009, 02:02:45 AM

And very annoying shit, since even if you reload and attack all over again the same tank will lose to the same musket dude. I recall something about a random seed generated each time you start the game, or some such, but no idea how it works.

-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 21475


Reply #78 on: June 15, 2009, 02:05:38 AM

This has been a problem since the very first Civ. Every sequel they say they've tweaked things so it isn't so bad but it still happens regularly (musketmen killing my tanks happened in my last game too).
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 02:10:42 AM by Trippy »
rk47
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6236

The Patron Saint of Radicalthons


Reply #79 on: June 15, 2009, 03:52:32 AM

 Nothing seems to happen.  Did it just get queued up and need a few turns to complete?  I skip a few turns to see.  Bomber is still sitting there.  I tell it again to go over there.  Nothing.  What the fuck?  After a few minutes of poking I figured out that my planes just can't fly that far.  Now, in any other game, I'd have gotten an error telling you "ye cannot recon ye continent," and maybe if the game was really helpful "try using X instead".  But the folks who made Civ 4 seem to assume that the only people playing their game are long-time Civ fans who will already know the uses and limitations of each unit.  

Or, when you clicked the bomber you could have seen the brightly lit circle around it that shows you the range.  Inside circle good, outside circle bad.  Planes are not boats, they need to be stationed at an airfield (or carrier) and have to return to it at the end of their turn.

They are incredibly powerful as it is and having them be able to make 'multi-turn moves' would not only be unrealistic but game breaking.

Yep, I still remember playing Civ 2 with super carrier battle group in late game. 3x3 squares of Aegis Crusier, Battleships with one carrier in the middle of it carrying a dozen of Fighters, Bombers, 2 dozen scuds and 3 nukes. Basically with air force you can somewhat forsake using land arty and pummel defenses multiple times per turn.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Hoax
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7669

l33t kiddie


Reply #80 on: June 15, 2009, 11:17:10 PM

I don't understand the Dwarven Fortress comment, first of all you need to read the code of the Matrix to even play the game...

That said, I remember having this same stupid argument about fighting games awhile back.  Just playing Civ doesn't teach you anything, in fact like Sam said it encourages you to NOT try anything you come up with on your own.  Every time a novice player muddles with things he ends up causing disease, or famine, or not having the military unit he needs or something else bad.  So you're left with two choices, either read a whole bunch of shit to figure out where this bad stuff comes from or play the game while avoiding the depth that aficionados will tell you is the best part.


A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
dusematic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2248

Diablo 3's Number One Fan


Reply #81 on: June 17, 2009, 04:17:53 PM

I think you can see the combat probabilities if you select a unit and hold down "alt" while mousing over the opposing unit you plan on attacking.  That goes a long way toward making you feel better about the combat.  Even if you lose a 99% chance of victory from time to time, you still feel like it wasn't just some arbitrary buttfucking by Sid Meier.
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 30339

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


WWW
Reply #82 on: June 18, 2009, 10:00:06 AM

The alt combat odds window is also good for learning how the game handles combat, why walls are good, etc. Then when you figure out bombards destroy defenses, etc, it becomes more manageable. If you're trying to attack a walled city on a hill full of fortified veteran units and your attackers don't have a bevy of upgrades, yeah a musketman is going to wipe out the tanks. Think of it more as the tanks never even making it up the hill, the crew getting out to push and getting shot by musketmen :)

dusematic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2248

Diablo 3's Number One Fan


Reply #83 on: June 18, 2009, 03:38:59 PM

Yeah that's a good point.  I've only ever seen one weirdly impossible combat encounter in my time with Civ4.  I get the feeling most of the people who complain about things like "tanks losing to muskets" don't really understand things like terrain defense bonuses, unit upgrades, etc.  The combat system is really incredibly simplistic.  Units simply have a base numerical strength score, which is then modified by terrain, natural unit proclivities, and combat promotions.  These things are displayed in the left hand corner of the interface.  One can add these up himself, or use the alt button for a calculation to the nth percentile.
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27447

Badge Whore


Reply #84 on: June 18, 2009, 07:50:56 PM

This has been a problem since the very first Civ. Every sequel they say they've tweaked things so it isn't so bad but it still happens regularly (musketmen killing my tanks happened in my last game too).


It's all about stacking defense modifiers.  Defenders in Civ4 get way, way too many of these, while offense requires a highly-ranked unit or a shitload of bombardment to remove/ reduce the defense bonuses.  Attacking a unit in a city built on hills with a %400 fort bonus and a well-promoted defender means stupid shit like musketmen (or in one case a Phalanx) taking out my Modern Armor.  swamp poop  I finally read a thread on CivFanatics that went into detail about it and understood a bit.

And very annoying shit, since even if you reload and attack all over again the same tank will lose to the same musket dude. I recall something about a random seed generated each time you start the game, or some such, but no idea how it works.

Yeah, every game has a seed for the randomizer. In Civ, you can set this to reset on loading a saved game or only at the start of the program. If you've got it set for the start of the program, every probability roll will come up the same every time you reload a game... or something like that.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
rk47
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6236

The Patron Saint of Radicalthons


Reply #85 on: June 19, 2009, 09:29:20 AM

Yeah that's a good point.  I've only ever seen one weirdly impossible combat encounter in my time with Civ4.  I get the feeling most of the people who complain about things like "tanks losing to muskets" don't really understand things like terrain defense bonuses, unit upgrades, etc.  The combat system is really incredibly simplistic.  Units simply have a base numerical strength score, which is then modified by terrain, natural unit proclivities, and combat promotions.  These things are displayed in the left hand corner of the interface.  One can add these up himself, or use the alt button for a calculation to the nth percentile.

Actually just select a unit, press g and hover your mouse over the enemy you want to attack. You'll see what's the base % chance and the modifiers for both attacker and defender without the unit even leaving town or making a move.

I'm still having a blast when revisiting the Fall from Heaven mod, it has a good mix of combat and empire building which depending on the map generator can be very epic. There's a certain satisfaction when your empire rose from the desert and slowly train a band of mages to convert the desert into plains and eventually flourishing grasslands while the AI flounders elsewhere in the world. I'm still having goosebumps when viewing the corrupted plains of Ashen Veil empires spreading and blazing the terrains.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 30339

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


WWW
Reply #86 on: June 19, 2009, 09:47:59 AM

I've got to get back to my game as the elf raiders, we're in the late game and I've been culturally pushing across an enemies' island (playing the islands map, one large per civ plus lots of small). He started seeding the arctic regions in case I borg his entire homeland just as I started pushing into the arctic for resources grab. Except he gets these cheesy little crap towns and I develop big elf cities in the lush grassland forests I create.

rk47
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6236

The Patron Saint of Radicalthons


Reply #87 on: June 19, 2009, 09:51:23 AM

If there is one true genuine complaint of mine about Civ overall is the AI is just so poor at navy, it felt like cheating when you know when you start off in a island by yourself. There's no way they can invade you at all.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Murgos
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7474


Reply #88 on: June 19, 2009, 10:42:06 AM

If there is one true genuine complaint of mine about Civ overall is the AI is just so poor at navy, it felt like cheating when you know when you start off in a island by yourself. There's no way they can invade you at all.

Yeah, Civ Iv doesn't really improve that at all.  I had one game where there was a moderately large continent that started with two AI players and then one killed the other off and had it all to him self.

That AI pretty much led the game in income and research for maybe 3/4ths of the game but was never a threat to anyone and eventually I bombarded his cities down and landed a bunch of stuff and killed him off in like 10 turns.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 30339

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


WWW
Reply #89 on: June 19, 2009, 11:58:26 AM

There's a lot to complain about :) Navy is definitely one of them, but in FFH2 you definitely have to watch out for the Lanun, especially if they've rushed OO. In my current game they had rushed naval techs and were messing with everyone pretty badly. Only a lot of political wrangling in the Overcouncil and the fact that they lagged badly technologically (meaning they could be bought off with free techs) saved a few civs (mine included) from getting swamped. Actually, I bought her off about two turns before her fleet landed on my mainland, she had been refusing my inquiries and it was before I had the Nexus. It was close to game over for me, or at least being set back hundreds of years, I was focused a continent away.

Xuri
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1197

몇살이세욬ㅋ 몇살이 몇살 몇살이세욬ㅋ!!!!!1!


WWW
Reply #90 on: June 19, 2009, 11:59:11 AM

Actually just select a unit, press g and hover your mouse over the enemy you want to attack. You'll see what's the base % chance and the modifiers for both attacker and defender without the unit even leaving town or making a move.
Just right-click (or left-click, depending on what option you use to move units) and hold, instead of mucking around with the keyboard shortcuts =P

-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-
rk47
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6236

The Patron Saint of Radicalthons


Reply #91 on: June 19, 2009, 01:29:23 PM

There's a lot to complain about :) Navy is definitely one of them, but in FFH2 you definitely have to watch out for the Lanun, especially if they've rushed OO. In my current game they had rushed naval techs and were messing with everyone pretty badly. Only a lot of political wrangling in the Overcouncil and the fact that they lagged badly technologically (meaning they could be bought off with free techs) saved a few civs (mine included) from getting swamped. Actually, I bought her off about two turns before her fleet landed on my mainland, she had been refusing my inquiries and it was before I had the Nexus. It was close to game over for me, or at least being set back hundreds of years, I was focused a continent away.

I'm not sure about that, I'm usually play on Prince difficulty and things has been quite swell for me even when I only have one 'shipyard' town since the AI seems to struggle with establishing colonies in a different continent while trying to improve desert tiles around their home base, I usually employ privateers to clean things up without declaring war over sea skirmishes. The only dominant AI seem to have access to a huge landmass, despite having 3 neighbors, they still maintain the 2nd biggest empire after mine. But the funniest part is when the Lanun sent over 2 dozen units against my hero Teutorix. He must've killed at least 1.5 dozen of swordsmen before finally killing Guybrush Threepwood on the final attack. Two cities later, including the capital city the Lanuns, they capitulated and became my vassal state.  awesome, for real

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
dusematic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2248

Diablo 3's Number One Fan


Reply #92 on: June 19, 2009, 03:05:37 PM

Yeah that's a good point.  I've only ever seen one weirdly impossible combat encounter in my time with Civ4.  I get the feeling most of the people who complain about things like "tanks losing to muskets" don't really understand things like terrain defense bonuses, unit upgrades, etc.  The combat system is really incredibly simplistic.  Units simply have a base numerical strength score, which is then modified by terrain, natural unit proclivities, and combat promotions.  These things are displayed in the left hand corner of the interface.  One can add these up himself, or use the alt button for a calculation to the nth percentile.

Actually just select a unit, press g and hover your mouse over the enemy you want to attack. You'll see what's the base % chance and the modifiers for both attacker and defender without the unit even leaving town or making a move.


Yeah I already said that, except with the alt button.  Didn't know you could use g instead of alt though.
CmdrSlack
Contributor
Posts: 4388


WWW
Reply #93 on: June 20, 2009, 02:54:44 AM

So I checked out the Civ 4 demo. 100 turns tells me that it seems a bit like Civ 2 and SMAC, so I can likely get up to speed and not hate it. My main question is: do I need all of the expansions, or can I totally cheap out and just get the base game and then use the FFH2 mod?

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 21475


Reply #94 on: June 20, 2009, 03:00:10 AM

If you want to play FFH2 you need the Beyond the Sword expansion.
dusematic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2248

Diablo 3's Number One Fan


Reply #95 on: June 20, 2009, 10:46:30 AM

I think I saw the complete Civ pack with both expansions for like 30 bones in Best Buy the other day
Teleku
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10115

https://i.imgur.com/mcj5kz7.png


Reply #96 on: June 20, 2009, 12:07:32 PM

Complete Civ pack on steam for $40 (which includes all the expansions, and the Colonization remake).

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 30339

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


WWW
Reply #97 on: June 22, 2009, 11:13:01 AM

Yeah, at least get BtS for FFH2 compatibility. It really does improve the base game, too. Also, FFH2 >>>> Civ4 :) I've played a single Civ4 game since I found out about FFH2, and that was when I bought BtS.

Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 17736

sentient yeast infection


WWW
Reply #98 on: June 22, 2009, 11:58:38 AM

Careful there, duse is liable to get upset if you decide vanilla Civ 4 isn't the best thing ever made after only one game.  If you don't invest at least a month in it you're just ignorant.

 why so serious?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
dusematic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2248

Diablo 3's Number One Fan


Reply #99 on: June 22, 2009, 12:58:02 PM

Or if you explain in your 'review' that you couldn't "figure out what cities do."  Then you're just stupid.
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #100 on: June 22, 2009, 02:08:35 PM

FWIW I don't think FFH is actually all that outstanding. It is clear the guy put a lot of work into it, but I actually think the base game is more fun personally.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 17736

sentient yeast infection


WWW
Reply #101 on: June 22, 2009, 02:25:00 PM

Or if you explain in your 'review' that you couldn't "figure out what cities do."  Then you're just stupid.

Could you link me to the review you pulled that quote from?  I'd like to read it.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Rendakor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9578


Reply #102 on: June 22, 2009, 05:34:34 PM

Add me to the list of people who didn't get the appeal of FFH. I tried a Custom Game and just got owned really hard by barbarians and kind of lost interest.

Check out my podcast: ADD&D, Attention Deficit Dungeons & Dragons!
"I think it's time for a dose of F13 RED PILL MOTHER FUCKERS" ~cosapi
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #103 on: June 22, 2009, 05:55:56 PM

Part of the problem for me is it just feels like some random dude's D&D campaign world. Which of course it is. The story stuff in the scenarios is at times painful.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Teleku
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10115

https://i.imgur.com/mcj5kz7.png


Reply #104 on: June 22, 2009, 06:17:57 PM

I love FFH, and everything about it.  But it does fall more into the trap that Samwise complained about (unlike the vanilla civ game, which I think is very mass market, and Sam is crazy).  It is a game of insane depth, and it takes a long god damn time to figure out everything.  Your first few games will always end quickly and badly, usually just from Barbarians alone.  Once you get the hang of it though, theres so much replay value as every race really does play different.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  But is it Fun?  |  Topic: Civilization IV - Firaxis - PC  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC