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Author Topic: Civilization IV - Firaxis - PC  (Read 51871 times)
Rendakor
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Reply #35 on: June 11, 2009, 02:01:25 AM

Ahh, I always assumed it gave the same options but with less information; I can never remember exactly what each landmass type means, for example. Will turning off "Time" as a victory condition prevent me from dying of old age?

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Trippy
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Reply #36 on: June 11, 2009, 02:03:56 AM

Ahh, I always assumed it gave the same options but with less information; I can never remember exactly what each landmass type means, for example. Will turning off "Time" as a victory condition prevent me from dying of old age?
Yes. You can read the Civilopedia for an explanation of what all the victory conditions mean.
Velorath
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Reply #37 on: June 11, 2009, 02:06:42 AM

I can see writing a review like this for an obtuse indie game.  But I really can't see the point of writing a review for a Triple A title like 3 years after it game out that basically says "didn't feel like spending the time to figure this one out, not my cup of tea."  Or at least, I don't see the point of front paging it.  Paelos wrote a better review in the comments section.  I'm not pro-Civ, I'm just anti-useless.

BIIF is open to abuse by the author.

At which point the author is open to abuse by the reader.  I can't imagine anyone who writes one of these "You know that game that most of you have played and really like?  Well I just played it for 15 minutes and it sucks!" BIIF's is doing so for completely innocent motives. 

I also think that it highlights one of the weaknesses of BIIF's.  When it comes time to back up one's "review", ignorance due to lack of play isn't a very compelling arguement.
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Reply #38 on: June 11, 2009, 05:51:28 AM

As for myself, I like the type of game Civ supposedly is, but I couldn't get into it.  The interface is clunky, and behind it I couldn't see a lot there.
Don't agree with the "Avoid" rating but I do agree the interface is clunky. In fact I would say it's fucking horrific. All of the Civs have been like that and most of his other games too.

I actually liked Pirates (the recent one) quite a bit.  I don't remember the interface ever pissing me off.

I think I did borg a couple of neighboring cities in Civ 4, but as far as I could tell it wasn't because of anything in particular I'd done.  They just said "hey, we're on your team now," and I said "um, okay?"
It's based on the culture output and the various cultural levels of a city. As a city grows in influence it's cultural borders expand and, where those borders butt up against another civ there's some bleed between the two in the border squares. A city pumping out a lot of culture influences neighbouring territories more than one with low culture outputs, when the neighbours loyalty to their own civ drops below about 30% they'll have a pro-you riot. If it continues to drp then they'll defect.

I like to build a lot of cultural buildings in all my cities (libraries, universities, theatres, monasteries, cathedrals etc) and maximise my Great Person birthrate as much as possible. When I get a Great Artist, I find a border city of mine that has a few wavering cities from other civs near it and go create a masterwork there. You can have multiple cities defect at once if you're lucky.

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Trippy
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Reply #39 on: June 11, 2009, 05:55:42 AM

I understand how it's supposed to work and I do pump up the culture in my border cities, hence the border shrinkage on their side, but I've never gotten any to flip for me.
kaid
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Reply #40 on: June 11, 2009, 06:49:44 AM

It can take a while to force a flip without something like a great master piece spiking the culture up usually what you wind up doing is choking that city off so they cannot feed themselves until it withers down to about size 5 or so and then eventually it can switch to you.

I usually use it more for crippling enemy cities than capping them if you can force your border deep enough near their cities you can mess them up bad and then steal all their improvements with your own workers to make your city better and theirs worse.
ghost
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Reply #41 on: June 11, 2009, 10:11:52 AM

The interface isn't that bad.  I've seen worse, for certain.  Once you get used to it it is okay.

The biggest issue with all of the Civ games is the crazy combat.  I mean, can a spear brigade really beat a horde of musketmen or riflemen?  I'm sure those walls help and all.........

I don't like how the role of water based units has been lessened with Civ4.  Civ2 sea based units rocked.  In Civ4 you barely even need them. 
Hoax
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Reply #42 on: June 11, 2009, 11:19:26 AM

I don't think Sam was trolling, he thought Civ4 would be fun because people here make FoH sound like robot jesus.  The problem is, Civ sucks unless you like EXACTLY THAT TYPE OF GAMEPLAY.  There is nothing fun about Civ if you aren't a Civ player.  So I get what he's saying, if you don't already like Civ, ignore the FoH induced fawning because its still Civ which means its still boring as shit.

I enjoyed Civ on the PS1 back in the day, I played the future/space one a fair bit in the internet cafe days.  I still don't really like Civ4, I got it because I wanted to try FoH, I installed FoH and realized I was going to have to climb some kind of Matterhorn learning curve to even figure out which race to play as.  In the end, I don't have the time for Civ anymore, there are things buried within the gameplay that I know exist and their existence pisses me off because I'm incapable of wasting enough time reading the in-game encyclopedia and web sources to figure out how to incorporate them into my build city, build armies, hope city doesn't randomly fail forcing me to try to figure out why its failing.

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Tebonas
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Reply #43 on: June 11, 2009, 11:34:12 AM

Do you mean Fall from Heaven when you say FoH?

Because I somewhat agree. The learning curve is steep, and I've spent weeks getting to know the lore. Thankfully somebody paid me to waste my time at work with such nonsense!  awesome, for real

If you are that hardcore about Civbuilder games, its worth it though. If you aren't, Civ4 might be needlessly complicated for you already, especially with the expansions.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 11:36:06 AM by Tebonas »
Ingmar
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Reply #44 on: June 11, 2009, 12:06:16 PM

I installed FoH and realized I was going to have to climb some kind of Matterhorn learning curve to even figure out which race to play as

If you just play through their storyline/scenario campaign thing you don't have to worry about picking a race, etc.

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stu
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Reply #45 on: June 11, 2009, 12:20:37 PM

Civ sucks unless you like EXACTLY THAT TYPE OF GAMEPLAY. 

Sounds right on. As much as I enjoyed this game, I've only recommended it once, and that was to a RL friend I played SWG with (which probly says a lot about me).

I had games that lasted up to 15 hrs of total play time. It's been a while, but I remember feeling great satisfaction in having neighboring cities join my empires willingly. The soundtrack choices work well for the game, especially after a stressful work day. I haven't played the others Civs.

On a side note, is it radio legend Carl Kasell who does the tech achievement quotes in the game? That guy is cool.

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Ingmar
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Reply #46 on: June 11, 2009, 12:22:37 PM

Its Leonard Nimoy. Although I think for the extra techs added in the expansions it is actally just Sid Meier himself.

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stu
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Reply #47 on: June 11, 2009, 12:34:48 PM

They're cool too, but I'm a little disappointed.

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Reply #48 on: June 11, 2009, 03:08:40 PM

I don't think Sam was trolling, he thought Civ4 would be fun because people here make FoH sound like robot jesus.  The problem is, Civ sucks unless you like EXACTLY THAT TYPE OF GAMEPLAY.  There is nothing fun about Civ if you aren't a Civ player.  So I get what he's saying, if you don't already like Civ, ignore the FoH induced fawning because its still Civ which means its still boring as shit.

This man gets it.

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Reply #49 on: June 11, 2009, 03:22:57 PM

I found Civ4 to be a giant letdown and/or disappointment…

But I figured that might be remedied as it took a couple of years worth of patches for Civ 3 to end up being a decent game…

And I enjoy the TBS sort of game, though endgame military maneuvering (moving stacks around the board/world) is a PITA…

Civ 2, Alpha Centauri and FreeCiv were the pinnacle…

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dusematic
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Reply #50 on: June 11, 2009, 08:08:13 PM

The interface isn't that bad.


QFT.





This is the Civ interface.  The buttons on the bottom right simply change the visual displays on the world map.  One toggles a resource indicator that highlights strategic resources on the game map thus making them easier to spot at a glance, one toggles grid lines on the map to see the "tiles" on which units can move, etc.  The buttons on the top right are where you access basic information about your civilization, conduct diplomacy, conduct espionage, change your civics, change your religion, etc.  The sliders on the top left control the rate of your spending on technology, culture, etc.  You double click on a city to choose what you want to construct there, and how you want to allocate your citizenry.  That's about it.  The interface is pretty clean and utilitarian considering the depth of the game and the amount of information one needs to be able to draw upon and process.

As far as managing your military units?  You simply drag a box around a stack of units and it selects them all, then you right click where you want them to move, and they set off in that direction.  Just like in every RTS game ever made.  But yeah, there is a learning curve.  There's a learning curve to anything with any complexity.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 08:12:15 PM by dusematic »
rk47
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Reply #51 on: June 11, 2009, 10:11:11 PM

I thought it was pretty well done with the resource grab colonies you establish and somewhat slow-war machine build up to reflect the costs of war. The worker improvements is a big part of the game that I really enjoyed tuning too. Turning down research to 30% to fuel a rampaging Mongolian Asian invasion in World Map was a pretty high-point in Vanilla Civ for me.

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Reply #52 on: June 12, 2009, 03:11:01 AM

I played my first game on Prince-difficulty yesterday (having kept playing at Noble for years). Forced every other civilization except one into being my vassals... then won by diplomatic victory =P Cossacks are win.

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dusematic
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Reply #53 on: June 12, 2009, 06:23:08 AM

It's a solid strategy game.  Not great, not terrible.  Saying the game sucks because you don't understand what cities do is pure fail.
Azazel
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Reply #54 on: June 12, 2009, 08:53:47 AM

Forza 2, dude. Forza 2.

You mean when I ended the BiiF by saying

Quote
But I can safely say that FM2 is in no way a friendly bit of fun for anyone remotely casual about their racing. If you're a Gran Turismo afficionado, this might be for you, but for players like me...
-
Stay Away.


Reading comprehension FTW.

Half of the damned BiiF is in the form of disclaimer. My first paragraph is all about that, and then I end with that. Then read my BiiF of Lego Star Wars, also a game made up of Shit I Don't Usually Like, yet it won me over. Sometimes games from a genre you don't usually like can grab you. Sometimes, they don't. Unless you bother to play them, you'll never find out. Fuck, if you're still upset about the Forza BiiF not being a typed blowjob to the game, write your own one as a counterpoint.

edit - Oh wait, you DID. So you're still upset that I had a different opinion of a game to yours? wtf? /edit

Build a bridge, etc.

Really though, unless you want every BiiF to be a cheerleading "Buy it" or softcock "Rent it", you're going to get opinions that sometimes don't match your own. I disagree with Sam's opinion of Civ4, but I "get" it.

 why so serious?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 09:11:39 AM by Azazel »

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Murgos
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Reply #55 on: June 12, 2009, 09:12:02 AM

The biggest issue with all of the Civ games is the crazy combat.  I mean, can a spear brigade really beat a horde of musketmen or riflemen?  I'm sure those walls help and all.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana

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Sky
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Reply #56 on: June 12, 2009, 09:35:37 AM

I wonder what I'm doing wrong then.

It's pretty difficult. In the game (currently on hold due to drakensang/charlie's angels) I'm playing, I'm working on taking over another country culturally. But it's a bitch. It took about a quarter of the game to get half of his island taken over, and there's still one city that won't flip. My guess is he built a cultural wonder or something there, it's been isolated for a looong time, starved down to almost nothing.

Of course, my methods are based on FFH2. Besides building cultural buildings and wonders, I have older cities pumping out disciples who can give a city a small culture bonus, and just load up my borders with them (Nexus helps).

I didn't care much for vanilla Civ, and I'm a huge Civ fan. Out of the box with no expansions or mods, it's the worst Civ in the entire line. BtS is a very good addition and FFH2 is essential, it makes it  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

Although learning the races and their specialties takes a while, I tend to just learn by playing. By the end of a given game I've kinda figured out how a race is supposed to be played and move on to the next game. I almost always allow the game to assign me a civ and leader and figure it out from there. Usually a mid-game point where I smack myself in the head (oh, elves can build upgrades in forests!), but the research is more fun.
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Reply #57 on: June 12, 2009, 11:58:10 AM


This is the Civ interface.

That's pretty misleading. That's *one screen* of the Civ interface, there are a lot more than that. I love the game, but the interface really is pretty cluttered when you look at the entire thing. The city screen in particular is pretty impenetrable at first glance.

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Musashi
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Reply #58 on: June 12, 2009, 12:06:17 PM

It's a solid strategy game.  Not great, not terrible.  Saying the game sucks because you don't understand what cities do is pure fail.

Broham.  If you can't figure out that one man's opinion is purely subjective, and that the BIIF - well done or not- will illicit the nerd discussion you're looking for anyway, you have no business on my internet.  F13 BIIFs don't appear to me something to camp outside blaring Rage Against the Machine, and waving protest signs depicting longcat.

As for CivIV.  I have two words.  Not intuitive.

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Samwise
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Reply #59 on: June 12, 2009, 12:19:01 PM

Dwarf Fortress is "not intuitive".  And I had some fun with DF.  Civ is a level beyond that IMO.

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Reply #60 on: June 12, 2009, 12:37:45 PM

Dwarf Fortress is "not intuitive".  And I had some fun with DF.  Civ is a level beyond that IMO.

OK now I am going to call you crazy! DF is significantly more unintuitive/micromanagey than Civ 4, imo, up there with the most  swamp poop of Paradox games, like Victoria.

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Murgos
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Reply #61 on: June 12, 2009, 01:54:08 PM

Dwarf Fortress is "not intuitive".  And I had some fun with DF.  Civ is a level beyond that IMO.

I found the Civ IV city screen to be pretty easily figured out with a couple of trial error clicks.  20 or 30 seconds of experimenting tops.

Either you're trolling or you were having a really bad day.

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Samwise
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Reply #62 on: June 12, 2009, 02:16:51 PM

Possibly a bad day.  I used the city screen only a couple of times to queue up new stuff to build, screwed myself by accidentally cancelling progress on the dudes I desperately needed to defend my city from the incoming barbarians, and then found out that the game would just prompt me whenever it was time to queue up stuff, and even helpfully suggest what stuff I should queue next.  So after that I just never opened up the city screen again since it had brought me nothing but pain.  tongue  I just clicked the highlighted options in the prompts and hit enter for three hours until I won.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 02:20:03 PM by Samwise »

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Murgos
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Reply #63 on: June 12, 2009, 02:22:16 PM

There is only 2 things you really need to do in the city management screen, and you only need to do those if you are into micromanaging.

The most important one is to set your workers working the tiles you want, say if you want to up food production over hammer production.  You do that simply by clicking the tile you want to deallocate the worker from and then clicking the tile you want to allocate the now unemployed worker too.

The other is moving unemployed workers to other jobs, like research.

Pretty much the rest of the screen is informational.

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Kail
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Reply #64 on: June 12, 2009, 02:38:06 PM

Really though, unless you want every BiiF to be a cheerleading "Buy it" or softcock "Rent it", you're going to get opinions that sometimes don't match your own. I disagree with Sam's opinion of Civ4, but I "get" it.

Well, the other side, of course, is that unless you want every BiiF thread to be cheerleading, you're going to get opinions that don't match the reviewer, too.  Bitching about things you disagree with seems fine to me, as long as people have reasons for it.

The biggest issue with all of the Civ games is the crazy combat.  I mean, can a spear brigade really beat a horde of musketmen or riflemen?  I'm sure those walls help and all.........

I have problems with this, too.  It's incredibly hard to overcome city defenses, for me.  Once the computer has archers, I'm basically done with the military until I can get trebuchets or better.  I guess this works both ways, but when the computer rushes a city with fifteen units and kills the two I had guarding it, it pisses me off just as much as when it costs me fifteen units to take an enemy city that's only guarded by two.
veredus
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Reply #65 on: June 12, 2009, 03:01:34 PM

I just want to add that TAM (The Ancient Mediterranean) Mod is awesome too. That and FFH2 make Civ4 great.
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Reply #66 on: June 12, 2009, 07:59:45 PM

A single catapult will neutralize the whole "2 archers hold against 15 attackers" thing. Just bombard the defenses until 0% (shouldn't be higher than 20-40% to start with in early games), then throw away the catapult in a suicide attack to weaken both archers a bit, then pounce with the 15. =P

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Reply #67 on: June 12, 2009, 08:21:32 PM

Well, the other side, of course, is that unless you want every BiiF thread to be cheerleading, you're going to get opinions that don't match the reviewer, too.  Bitching about things you disagree with seems fine to me, as long as people have reasons for it.

I agree completely. Reasons besides "you're a retard if you didn't like this game" are where the valuable discourse comes from, and there have been several in this thread.

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Reply #68 on: June 12, 2009, 08:24:57 PM

A single catapult will neutralize the whole "2 archers hold against 15 attackers" thing. Just bombard the defenses until 0% (shouldn't be higher than 20-40% to start with in early games), then throw away the catapult in a suicide attack to weaken both archers a bit, then pounce with the 15. =P

A cannon is fine too.   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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dusematic
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Reply #69 on: June 12, 2009, 09:21:57 PM



Dwarf Fortress is "not intuitive".  And I had some fun with DF.  Civ is a level beyond that IMO.

I found the Civ IV city screen to be pretty easily figured out with a couple of trial error clicks.  20 or 30 seconds of experimenting tops.

Either you're trolling or you were having a really bad day.


This, and...


I can see writing a review like this for an obtuse indie game.  But I really can't see the point of writing a review for a Triple A title like 3 years after it game out that basically says "didn't feel like spending the time to figure this one out, not my cup of tea."  Or at least, I don't see the point of front paging it.  Paelos wrote a better review in the comments section.  I'm not pro-Civ, I'm just anti-useless.

BIIF is open to abuse by the author.

At which point the author is open to abuse by the reader.  I can't imagine anyone who writes one of these "You know that game that most of you have played and really like?  Well I just played it for 15 minutes and it sucks!" BIIF's is doing so for completely innocent motives. 

I also think that it highlights one of the weaknesses of BIIF's.  When it comes time to back up one's "review", ignorance due to lack of play isn't a very compelling arguement.


This.



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