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Author Topic: World of Tanks  (Read 1092393 times)
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #805 on: April 20, 2011, 08:18:48 AM


The matchmaker is pretty clearly broken in some fundamental ways. The up side is that you can just die like you're supposed to, and go play another match that will probably be better.

I think you  nailed it - it matches the teams instead of taking 30 players and balancing them .  Which is just wrong -  its the reason one sides ends with 4 premium M6s and other side has a few measly mediums as their "counterparts"



Quote
and that the camo system as is reinforces shitty gameplay on a few maps.

Camping  is  my main problem with the game. there are a lot of maps which degenerate into campfest due to insane advantage for defenders (komarin, and sand hils come to mind) .
Bandit
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Reply #806 on: April 20, 2011, 09:15:00 AM


The matchmaker is pretty clearly broken in some fundamental ways. The up side is that you can just die like you're supposed to, and go play another match that will probably be better.

I think you  nailed it - it matches the teams instead of taking 30 players and balancing them .  Which is just wrong -  its the reason one sides ends with 4 premium M6s and other side has a few measly mediums as their "counterparts"



Quote
and that the camo system as is reinforces shitty gameplay on a few maps.



Camping  is  my main problem with the game. there are a lot of maps which degenerate into campfest due to insane advantage for defenders (komarin, and sand hils come to mind) .

The Premium M6s were more of an issue with nobody available at that tier, that issue will die down and already has a bit.  The M6s will be slightly underpowered as they are matched up with same tier tanks.  The premiums for the most part offer no clear advantage except for repair bills. 

I still prefer the variety and getting into matches quickly then perfect balance.  Wargaming has indicated the following in respect to match-making:

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General principles of match-making are not planned to be changed in the near future. However it is possible to adjust some coefficients/values and add some extra limitations on team lineup.  Notice: introduction of additional limitations can increase "waiting in line" time and make it impossible to increase max platoon size.

In general, it does work fine.  However, I do recognize issues of basically being useless in a match, but matches are usually short-lived and for the amount of time it happens it doesn't bother me.  Tweaks to the system would definitely help though.

Camping in a tank game? ha, I don't see it as an issue - part of the strategy.  Just a preference of game style in this case.

I think in both of these cases, Clan warfare will alleviate many of the issues for you.  Whenever that comes......
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #807 on: April 21, 2011, 07:37:41 AM

The Premium M6s were more of an issue with nobody available at that tier, that issue will die down and already has a bit.  The M6s will be slightly underpowered as they are matched up with same tier tanks.  The premiums for the most part offer no clear advantage except for repair bills. 

I still prefer the variety and getting into matches quickly then perfect balance.  Wargaming has indicated the following in respect to match-making:

I think the problem is that  because of lack of  high tier tanks  it throws some low tier in  high tier battles to get full teams. tier 5 and below tanks should never be in matches with premium m6 and tier 7+ heavies. yet this is very regular occurrence. It will only die down when I get myself to tier7+.  And my personal experience for low tiers is markedly much worse than early beta  -when there was no premium  ,  no one had perma premium for first month.



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Camping in a tank game? ha, I don't see it as an issue - part of the strategy.  Just a preference of game style in this case.

So whats the point playing at all then? I never understood those who like camping. Why play a game at  all if whole gameplay is just staring at empty screen. After 15 minutes you get a draw. whats the point?  Camping is bad. A draw is a fail game and fail design

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I think in both of these cases, Clan warfare will alleviate many of the issues for you.  Whenever that comes......

Yes  -  but for new of players clan warfare would be not really accessible. It requires a) top tier tank b) clan good enough to compete for territory. Top tier tank is far away and if newbies are turned off the game its not good for longevity.
kildorn
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Reply #808 on: April 21, 2011, 08:13:33 AM

Camping is fine. It's the camo mechanics that make it broken (and that stupid, stupid camo skill)

I have no real issues with "TD in the bushes has a defensive advantage locking down an area", I just have issues with "scouts can't scout because when moving, a scout has a 500m detection signal, and the TD he's looking for has a sub 100m detection signal even when firing due to the camo mechanics being absolutely stupid"

Which leads to you being shot at, in the open, by an invisible tank. That's where camping comes from. Not from the innate accuracy bonus of being in solid defensive positions and stationary, but because the attackers have a huge visibility disadvantage due to them having to move, and you having stacked camo bonuses everywhere.

As for the M6: the premiums are mostly considered bullshit because when you get a fresh tank, it usually can't penetrate the premiums until it's better gun. So it's a painful little grind. All the premiums are essentially giant walls of solid armor with a shitty gun. This is mostly an issue in city type maps where flanking is difficult in the early part of a match, so everyone's forced to fire on frontal armor. An M6 is the first time I ever heard "that one bounced" and "we didn't penetrate their armor!" from HE rounds on my m5 <3

The issue the matchmaker also has (that devs say they want to find a fix for) is that the higher tier lights get auto matched into tier 8->10 fights because they need scouts. At that tier, a scout essentially can't "dodge" because the turret traverses get high enough that they can keep up with you, and their spotting range is higher than yours due to the tier difference. One of the solutions proposed was to flag the mid tier mediums as heavy scouts and let them fill that role. Because being an A-20 in an IS-7 match is just absolutely frustrating. To the point where you just suicide scout to get out of it and go play another tank.

That said: I'm loving the american tank line, and the game is Fun. Just.. the camo mechanics and matchmaking are a bit broken sometimes. I have less of an issue with the premium tanks, but I can see where the frustration comes from.

My m5 needs a killboard, though. Because I have some hilarious heavy tank kills with him.
Bandit
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Reply #809 on: April 21, 2011, 08:47:13 AM




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So whats the point playing at all then? I never understood those who like camping. Why play a game at  all if whole gameplay is just staring at empty screen. After 15 minutes you get a draw. whats the point?  Camping is bad. A draw is a fail game and fail design

I have probably been in 2500+ matches, I have seen time expire once. Some people enjoy a strategic battle, "camping" choke-points and advancing slowly. Like I said, preference in game style.   I do agree that camping with lights and mediums is ill advised and not beneficial to the team.  Different tanks dictate different playstyles, no sense for a TD to be dogfighting because that is fail. 

I never understood how people like Train/Flight simulators, but they do.

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Yes  -  but for new of players clan warfare would be not really accessible. It requires a) top tier tank b) clan good enough to compete for territory. Top tier tank is far away and if newbies are turned off the game its not good for longevity.

Can't really argue with this, as I have no idea how clan warfare is going to work - but I assume they won't limit games to top tier tanks and I have heard mention of a mercenary system where you don't even actually need to be in a clan.
kildorn
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Reply #810 on: April 21, 2011, 10:48:48 AM

As I understand it, weight plays a factor in clan matches. So picking the best of everything gives you fewer tanks than the guy who puts some thought into if that gun upgrade is really worth adding half a ton to the tank.

You sort of play this game with speedier lights and mediums, where you can get a lot of acceleration and uphill performance if you don't just slap the biggest gun you can find on your tank.

Sadly, nothing will ever make an A-20 turn better than an escalade on ice.
Furiously
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Reply #811 on: April 21, 2011, 11:31:18 AM

It's odd. I seem to get stuck with 15 other spg's when I use mine and like 4 when I don't.

Furiously
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Reply #812 on: April 21, 2011, 08:04:52 PM

I got accused of being a hacker tonight, I think most people don't know about using the shift key.

I also have a M2 crew that is getting up there skill wise.

Simond
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Posts: 6742


Reply #813 on: April 23, 2011, 05:28:43 AM

It's the online gaming version of the old "Yes, Minister" irregular declining verb thing: I am skilled, you're a camper, he's hacking.  awesome, for real

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Furiously
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Reply #814 on: April 23, 2011, 09:49:00 AM

Do we have a list or f13 players ingame names? I'm using Katiri.

Gets
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Reply #815 on: April 23, 2011, 12:34:32 PM

Never played a single tank match since launch crew checking in.
Sparky
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Reply #816 on: April 23, 2011, 02:48:42 PM

Started down the German tank destroyer line this evening and I'm really having fun.  The sneaky campy asshole gameplay makes a nice change from storming the dunes in my KV.  It helps that I already have camo and binoculars though!  Pleasantly surprised by T3 where you're traditionally thrown up against tanks you can barely scratch as the big TD guns let me meaningfully contribute even when I'm one of the smaller guys on the field.  Now I hope they don't overbuff spotting and make hiding in bushes useless.
Amarr HM
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Reply #817 on: April 23, 2011, 05:38:02 PM

I'm using Blindside and abagadro is apparently a pretty good arty player.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Furiously
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Reply #818 on: April 23, 2011, 06:36:03 PM

I can't believe how happy I get when I don't get a city map playing Arti. Or when there are only 2 arti's besides me.

Abagadro
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Possibly the only user with more posts in the Den than PC/Console Gaming.


Reply #819 on: April 23, 2011, 09:59:35 PM

I'm using Blindside and abagadro is apparently a pretty good arty player.

Oh was that you?  I was wondering why you were cursing my name.  awesome, for real

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Amarr HM
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Reply #820 on: April 24, 2011, 06:11:54 AM

Yes it was I you were pummeling with your Hummel. Jerk  why so serious?

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
ezrast
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Reply #821 on: April 24, 2011, 11:46:32 AM

Playing again as ezrast. Maybe I'll get past tier 2 this time.
Simond
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Reply #822 on: April 24, 2011, 03:48:14 PM

Don't bother - just get a tricked out AT-1 and murder everyone.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Engels
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inflicts shingles.


Reply #823 on: April 24, 2011, 05:26:59 PM

I'm using Blindside and abagadro is apparently a pretty good arty player.

Oh was that you?  I was wondering why you were cursing my name.  awesome, for real

He's a pretty good td player too. Heaven help us if he ever gets his hands on a t54.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
ezrast
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Reply #824 on: April 24, 2011, 06:26:32 PM

Don't bother - just get a tricked out AT-1 and murder everyone.
I didn't have much luck with the AT-1 in beta (I think I didn't understand the stealth mechanics) but I've been doing fairly well with a Panzerjager I. My best so far is 7 kills on Karelia - just run to the center, become invisible and kill anything that dares to leave cover.
tmp
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POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #825 on: April 24, 2011, 10:09:56 PM

Panzerjager is teh shit on that map with mountain-shielded passage in the south and open road through the middle connecting the bases. Especially if you start in north-east base but both are good. Just stay where you start and one-shot murder everyone that comes close. They'll often be damaged at that point which makes it even easier.
penfold
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Reply #826 on: April 26, 2011, 07:55:27 AM

I've put the 100mm on the T-34/85, which is fully upgraded now, the first tank in the tree I've researched anything other the essentials to get me to the next tier.  I've also put a rammer in too as the 100mm is a bit slow.  My best so far is 9 kills in a match, when you aren't right at the bottom of the tier list it's not a bad tank at all. I can see where the glass cannon reputation comes from though, whilst i can damage the tier 8 and 9s I'm coming across now they only need to glance my way and I explode in spectacular fashion.

I'm hoping the T-43 is not as bad on paper as it looks, but remember it being rubbish in beta when faced against my IS4 or Panther. The Pz V-VI from the pre-order is a really nice tank, sort of a Panther lite, decent armour, speed and firepower.  It has proved itself an admirable farmer, 1200+ xp and 30k+ creds for a good win. The lower tiers went really quick this time (my first match in the loltraktor saw 2 kills and enough exp to go elite and move 250 to free exp, followed by an immediate sale, gotta love premium+first match bonus) as I've been using the Pz V-VI and M4 beta Sherman to farm exp and creds. I'll also have enough to jump straight to the Stug sometime soon.

kildorn
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Reply #827 on: April 26, 2011, 08:52:58 AM

My M5 and M7 are my credit earners, the M5 especially since it gets thrown into crazy high tier matches, and as long as it's not a terrible map with no hiding places, I can actually put an HE round into at least 3-4 heavies for a whole 600 credit repair cost if I eat it. I think the playerbase has moved up enough that my M7 has stopped being a monster though. Still awesome, fast and fun.. but I've been bouncing rounds all day long the past two days.

My E8 is okay, but feels like it bounces constantly as well, even side shots on the KV-3 and IS's it gets tossed at.

I've also got a t-34 that is hilariously fun. I picked it up just so I'd have a tank that might in some alternate universe bounce incoming fire. Because my m5 and m7 sure as heck aren't getting Steel Wall ever ;)

I also keep wasting money on random TDs. I apparently SUCK at playing anything other than lights/mediums. I just never wind up in a good position with my TD, and have to move to react to incoming targets, and generally try to play it like an M7 or T-34. Which is bad.
ezrast
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Reply #828 on: April 26, 2011, 10:36:48 AM

I also keep wasting money on random TDs. I apparently SUCK at playing anything other than lights/mediums. I just never wind up in a good position with my TD, and have to move to react to incoming targets, and generally try to play it like an M7 or T-34. Which is bad.
I'm having the opposite problem. TDs "clicked" with me early and now I cannot for the life of me figure out what I'm supposed to do with a light tank. TD's basically go like this:
1) Get an idea of how stealth works from the wiki if you haven't already.
2) Find some bushes near your base (you are a defensive unit) with a good view of a choke point or field that enemies are likely to come through.
3) Never leave your bushes.

Even if your teammates are actively fighting elsewhere, you're usually better off playing the waiting game if you can't find a bush to invisibly snipe the enemy from 500m. Targets will come your way sooner or later.
I'm still in the early tiers, so grain of salt and all that.
Numtini
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Reply #829 on: April 26, 2011, 11:00:32 AM

Same here. TDs are no problem at all, though your success is going to vary greatly by map. Mediums I do ok. Scouting/lights I'm just a disaster at.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
kildorn
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Reply #830 on: April 26, 2011, 11:04:05 AM

Scouting with a light is praying you don't cross in the open when someone who can actually aim is looking. Tracked in the open = dead in seconds.

But if you have to run a light, the M5 is the light to run. The A-20 is terrible (fast, but turns for shit so you'll never evade fire, and has a gun that can't hit anything without standing still for a few minutes), M5s are basically rolling around with SPG guns and can dent heavies. Just dodge up a hill and immediately down it again (don't stop to look, the game will take care of telling you what you saw while you take care of breaking LOS before you get shot) and flank the shit out of things that forget you have a GIANT GUN.
Bandit
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Posts: 604


Reply #831 on: April 26, 2011, 12:15:26 PM

I'm having the opposite problem. TDs "clicked" with me early and now I cannot for the life of me figure out what I'm supposed to do with a light tank. TD's basically go like this:
1) Get an idea of how stealth works from the wiki if you haven't already.
2) Find some bushes near your base (you are a defensive unit) with a good view of a choke point or field that enemies are likely to come through.
3) Never leave your bushes. Stay Hidden, don't sit it one place if arty has detected you (they can spot tracers from TD from above)
4) If you do move out with a force, stay back a distance and avoid city fighting as you can be flanked easily.


Fixed a bit.
snowwy
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Reply #832 on: April 26, 2011, 01:52:56 PM

I've put the 100mm on the T-34/85, which is fully upgraded now, the first tank in the tree I've researched anything other the essentials to get me to the next tier.  I've also put a rammer in too as the 100mm is a bit slow.  My best so far is 9 kills in a match, when you aren't right at the bottom of the tier list it's not a bad tank at all. I can see where the glass cannon reputation comes from though, whilst i can damage the tier 8 and 9s I'm coming across now they only need to glance my way and I explode in spectacular fashion.

I'm hoping the T-43 is not as bad on paper as it looks, but remember it being rubbish in beta when faced against my IS4 or Panther. The Pz V-VI from the pre-order is a really nice tank, sort of a Panther lite, decent armour, speed and firepower.  It has proved itself an admirable farmer, 1200+ xp and 30k+ creds for a good win. The lower tiers went really quick this time (my first match in the loltraktor saw 2 kills and enough exp to go elite and move 250 to free exp, followed by an immediate sale, gotta love premium+first match bonus) as I've been using the Pz V-VI and M4 beta Sherman to farm exp and creds. I'll also have enough to jump straight to the Stug sometime soon.


The T-43 is every bit as bad as you remember. I opened a beer to celebrate the second i bought my T-44.....soon at T-54 but i still think mediums suck ass. Can't remember last match i saw a T-44, that wasn't sniping from the other side of the map, live to see the victory. Hopefully 0.6.4 fixes the constant tracking. Read from someone that had tested it that shells that doesn't hit the cog-wheels now just vanish....no trackdamage, no damage at all actually, just a fart in the wind. Good luck stopping those T-54's then  Ohhhhh, I see.
tmp
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POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #833 on: April 26, 2011, 02:21:15 PM

Good luck stopping those T-54's then  Ohhhhh, I see.
Poor poor T54s clearly weren't good enough as they were swamp poop
Numtini
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Posts: 7675


Reply #834 on: April 27, 2011, 04:40:32 AM

Quote
Can't remember last match i saw a T-44, that wasn't sniping from the other side of the map, live to see the victory.

God, my memories of T44 in beta were "gee, I'm the only thing here not a heavy. Wow my shells are bouncing off. Oh I'm dead and it cost me thousands."

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Tmon
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Reply #835 on: April 27, 2011, 10:41:02 AM

I was able to go past the t-43 after the softwipe in beta so I never played it.  I've successfully ground my way up to in live and I don't find it that bad, it's not the greatest dog fighter but with the 85mm bt5 it makes a good sniper (for  a russian tank) and it can take one or two hits.  Pre T-54 the T=44 was my favorite beta tank, it was a blast to play, especially when platooned up with a couple other t-44s.  Any heavy we could catch without supporting mediums or TDs was usually dead meat.
jakonovski
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Reply #836 on: April 27, 2011, 12:14:37 PM

Does this thing have some complex matchmaking system? At first my crappy play-tanks were smoked by better light tanks, and now that I finally got the dough to buy a Panzerjäger I, I get matched up against T-28s and such.
Tmon
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Reply #837 on: April 27, 2011, 02:11:24 PM

It basically matches based on tier, and doesn't care about type.  http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Battle_Mechanics
ezrast
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Reply #838 on: April 27, 2011, 02:21:55 PM

Does this thing have some complex matchmaking system? At first my crappy play-tanks were smoked by better light tanks, and now that I finally got the dough to buy a Panzerjäger I, I get matched up against T-28s and such.
Yes. Your possible opposition is determined by vehicle class and tier; low-tier TDs tend to get placed in battles with tanks that are higher tier than them, or else they would one-shot everything.

Also, every new tank you buy will suck for a while until you upgrade its equipment and train the crew a bit. It's definitely a slog but it's not so bad at low tiers - your PJ will transform into a ruthless death-dealing machine soon enough.

edit for Tmon: It does care about tank type; that's what the big fancy chart is for. Even some specific models of vehicle have their own possible matchups.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 02:24:13 PM by ezrast »
Tmon
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Reply #839 on: April 28, 2011, 04:17:28 AM

edit for Tmon: It does care about tank type; that's what the big fancy chart is for. Even some specific models of vehicle have their own possible matchups.

All the fancy chart shows is what tiers a given tier vehicle type can fight in.  Once the match maker decides on a maximum tier level for a battle anything that can fight in that level battle gets thrown into the hopper.  Once it starts building teams vehicle type (except for SPGs) is irrelevant, all it cares about is tier.  That's why you end up with games where one side ends up with all the TDs in the match, or one side's top tier vehicle is a medium while the other's is a heavy.  If you total up the tiers for both sides of a match they will be equal.  When platooned the tier for the highest battle tier range is used, so if you platoon your tier iv medium with a tier iv light tank you can end up in a very high tier battle.
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