Rift: Planes of Telara

[Modern Angel]

Without having tanked as a VK I feel like it *could* do main tanking duties but it might be for gimmicky, magic heavy fights. But here's the thing: I think they *want* you to switch between specs on the fly as needed. So if you have less leeway in tanking but more leeway in DPS (which I think is currently true), that feels okay to me because you're not set into one spec at all times.

[Ard]

Void Knight vs Reaver is kinda a red herring, since they're not really different shades of the same thing.  Void Knight vs Warlord is closer, since Warlord includes most of the anti-melee tools vs the Void Knights anti-mage tools.  The real issue is that your snap aggro taunts are in the warlord tree, at 10 and 14 points, not the paladin tree, and it's something the void knight doesn't bring to the table at all as far as I remember.  Honestly, at this point, with them still balancing things, I'd say try what you think feels right, not what someone else is telling you is right, especially with all the outdated and/or flat out wrong information floating around out there.

[Segoris]

Let's talk about balance!

My main PvE thing was a Void Knight/Riftblade/Warlord, at some point I respecced Paladin/Warlord/Reaver because someone told me pally was the best tank. I did Realm of the Fae both ways and it seemed that the paladin build was slightly more survivable but also a bit worse at holding aggro. People who got to higher levels: does it look like there's enough leeway in survivability requirements that I can take fulfill my hopes and dreams of taking Riftblade as my second tree and still being a viable tank? It does offer a little survivability (6% parry, 6.5% damage reduction, stoneshield) and some energy returns to fuel the VK self-heal... I just worry about being useless if I don't go Paladin/Warlord/{VK|Reaver} like the chart says to.

Speaking of the chart, is there a reason the guy left off Paragon?

edit: also, VK as a main tanking tree, yea/nay? Like I said it seemed okay but maybe that's just since RotF had a fair amount of magic users.

VK is a valid tank, sure. If they adjust how quickly pacts are earned and lower it a bit, it may be a little rougher but still viable.

Reaver is good for AE aggro, and is king of it, before level 32 when paladins no longer even need a reaver soul in their builds to hold down AE aggro. The only place I've found for reavers at higher level is for magic mitigation supporting a VK soul (imbued armor + crest mastery). Though, outside of ROTF I have yet to feel reaver is superior in any situation at all. Though, when you're tanking ROTF as a paladin at that level, it's a bit tougher since the mobs stay spread out due to having so many casters. If you were to go to Iron Tombs, or pretty much any instance besides ROTF that we've seen in beta, you'd notice the paladin is superior to a reaver as a primary soul choice for tanking.

As for leeway on taking up a riftblade as a second tree, the min/maxer in me says no due to you losing hit points and other forms of mitigation you would otherwise gain from investing points into a tank soul. It could be doable, especially in early and mid level dungeons, but I can't see it being better or equal to spending those same points into an actual tank soul. That is taking into consideration Elemental Deflection and Avatar of Wind/Water. You can pull it off, but it will be a bit tougher.

To compare tanking utility of riftblades to other tanks, here is how it looks at 20 points (as RB doesn't have anything above 20 to help tanking):

RB:

Reaver:

Warlord:

paladin:

VK:

[Amaron]

I kind of expect min/maxers will switch specs on the fly a lot.     Talking about what's best in that situation is going to be very fight dependent.

[Threash]

Everyone has four specs, why would only min maxers switch on the fly?

[Morfiend]

Is Bat Country planning on make a showing? If so any server consensus? I think myself and some of my online friends are going to be playing on one of the PVP-RP servers. If anyone is interested in playing on the same server, or even making a guild, that would be awesome.

The head start is in just over 2 weeks.

[Rasix]

Probably not on a PVP server.  I'm just not made for that anymore. 

Would be nice to join up with people here, however, since I doubt my friends will play.

[Amaron]

Everyone has four specs, why would only min maxers switch on the fly?

I wasn't implying they wouldn't.   Just that PvE min/maxers will not be going around saying "this build is best" anymore.    Although I'm sure they'll argue endlessly about the "best" build for boss fights.

[Bzalthek]

I will play on the f13 server.  It shall be marvelous.

[kildorn]

As min-maxy as I am, I went Stormcaller/minorChloro/minimalEle, just because it amused me far more than a pyro heavy build.

The elementalist earth pet is terrible though. Seriously awful compared to the necro pets. Seems like they get better near the end of the tree, but they basically get an almost top tier talent to get the same damage reduction the necro tank gets in tier 2.

The only reason nobody goes low tier necro is that the pets kind of rely on you using the necro nuke.

[Ceryse]

I'm.. cautiously optimistic about Rifts (keep in mind I like DIKU, however). My main worries stem from several of the more recent changes, and from what I've heard from people in alpha regarding the Cleric calling and the devs. Still, likely going to go with a Cleric at launch, with a mage and rogue alts. Just don't see myself going warrior for anything other than an alt to level for more gathering, or profession whoring.

I'm worried that the launch is going to suck at times due to the other players, however, given my experiences in beta. Thus far.. all but one group I got into for dungeons was.. horrendous. As in rogues/mages/clerics refusing to role swap as needed, if they even knew about other roles, or had gotten any of them. Such as mages refusing to swap to a build with just a 0 point investment in dominator, for example, for poly to deal with trash that was raping our group make-up. All too many seemed stuck in the "I am dps and nothing else, as I rolled a mage/rogue". Additionally, at the higher level dungeons we had access to (FC, Kings Breach) groups were sparse beyond friends/guilds, unless they were desperate (in part, I think, due to the change to make the LFG channel not an auto-join).

But my main worries are primarily centered around their recent changes to several souls (Shaman, for example), racials (due to just how.. lame the new ones are, more than anything else), and outright ignorance to deal with the block issue for Justicar tanks, and so on. Oh, and how easily exploitable rifts and invasions are, for the best rewards based on how contribution is tallied.

Just basic design decisions where they seem to have gone in the wrong direction. Oh, and how shitty their buff system is in general, and especially in how its presented through the UI. Still, I wish people I knew were going to play it, but no one I know is changing to Rift; they're either quitting the genre completely or going so casual WoW is all they need/want given their time already spent in it.

[Threash]

Grouping with random people at this point in time is something you should expect to suck and avoid at all possible costs.  The game doesn't matter, it's the people that are broken.

[Draegan]

That chart is only accurate on an extremely basic level, and inaccurate in others.

It is 100% completely serious. I promise.

I guess it can be seriously incorrect? 

[Segoris]

I wasn't implying they wouldn't.   Just that PvE min/maxers will not be going around saying "this build is best" anymore.    Although I'm sure they'll argue endlessly about the "best" build for boss fights.

No, instead they'll be saying "this build is the best vs magic/melee/avoidance/etc."

I know I'm already finding myself doing that and trying to find out what the best builds will be for situational tanking. Basically, 1 build for physical mitigation, 1 for magic, 1 for support tanking, and 1 for trash packs.

[EWSpider]

Rift is providing enough entertainment for me to plunk down the box cost and a few months of sub fees.  As I said before even playing it, retention will depend on how much they develop open world pvp.  The new content in Scarlet Gorge is enough to give me hope, but if they don't keep adding stuff of that nature I'll definitely be leaving when GW2 is released.  I'd love to play in a Bat Country guild if anyone is starting something on a pvp server.

[March]

As I said before even playing it, retention will depend on how much they develop open world pvp. 

I certainly don't begrudge your desire for PvP, but it is already clear to me that they cannot manage the souls they have for PvE much less PvE AND PvP... PvP balancing is simply going to be impossible and make *everyone* unhappy.  If ever there was a game to do either or, this is it.  If this game crashes, my prediction is that it will be the reverse of WaR - crappy and ill-conceived PvP ruined the PvE gem that just needed proper focus.

[Spiff]

Some of the base concepts are very geared towards PvP though, you constantly get Defiant/Guardian NPC invasions for instance and there are quests to kill NPC's of the opposing faction.
So in some way it makes little sense to not have it.
Having said that; I don't see open world PvP without a lot of tears here (my personal crystal ball prediction: forget the whining about clerics, once people figure out how much power some of the rogue souls get at the top and more prime-builds get out there, it's going to be a rogue bonanza).

What I miss most perhaps is I just don't feel any connection to my characters; it's a bit vague of a complaint I know.
I can't imagine alting a lot here either, which is something I generally love to do.
Not so much because 4 is really all you need, and only if you literally want to squeeze every last drop out of the soul system, but there doesn't seem to be any alternate paths.
You either go Defiant or Guardian and you've seen it all really, just comparing it to Lotro where at least before level 35/40 I could have vastly different experiences for my first 3-4 alts.

But that's all RP and not G I guess and most people are all about the G, which is solid as has been said plenty.
More than GW2 I wonder how this thing might hit TOR, seeing as that's easily 3-6 months off it seems which is plenty of time for Rift to establish (or sink ) itself.

[AcidCat]

What I miss most perhaps is I just don't feel any connection to my characters; it's a bit vague of a complaint I know.

I've created a variety of characters and they all just felt painfully generic. The game is just missing an aesthetic spark or hook and that's really something I need to become invested in these kind of games, so I understand your complaints here. The game is competent, runs well, gameplay is adequate for what it is - but for me there is just something missing. And it's the difference between subscribing and uninstalling the alpha, which I did last night. Picked up Fallout New Vegas finally instead.

[Abelian75]

I have to admit I'm sort of chuckling at all the uproar about the weak racial bonuses and such.  You gotta feel pretty good as a developer when one of the largest outcries is that the flavor abilities you made for the various races suck.

I just like the idea of five years down the road, in an imaginary future where Rift bombed, people saying things like, "Yeah, Rift could have been the WoW killer, but they really screwed up the racials."

You either go Defiant or Guardian and you've seen it all really, just comparing it to Lotro where at least before level 35/40 I could have vastly different experiences for my first 3-4 alts.

Agreed that this is definitely a weakness, imho.  Not anywhere close to a game-breaker, but yeah, definitely.  (On the other hand, I actually felt pretty attached to my characters.  Enough that I'm trying to avoid the next beta to prevent getting too attached before they vanish. :( )

[Typhon]

Does Rift stealth work the same way that WoW stealth works?

[Threash]

Only for anyone who specs 21 points into the assassin tree.  Only two souls have stealth and the base version of the ability only lasts 30 secs with a 10 sec cd after you come out of it.  21 points in assassin gets you the permanent wow like stealth, 31 gets you vanish.

[Segoris]

Does Rift stealth work the same way that WoW stealth works?

Kind of. It's more like WAR with certain souls getting stealth abilities that last for 30seconds but one of the souls has a 21 point ability to make it last until broken/unstealthed/removed and a 31 point ability for vanish. I honestly haven't run into too many perma-stealthers in both open world and warfront pvp as most are going some sort of combo with saboteur/ranger/marks/bard/riftstalker, when the stealth abilities are in nightblade and assassin (assassin is where the perma stealth ability is as well).

[Shatter]

Only for anyone who specs 21 points into the assassin tree.  Only two souls have stealth and the base version of the ability only lasts 30 secs with a 10 sec cd after you come out of it.  21 points in assassin gets you the permanent wow like stealth, 31 gets you vanish.

Isnt there a vanish ability in the Infiltrator(PvP) tree as well or was that the second soul you were referring to?

[Threash]

You're right i forgot that one, three souls get stealth.  The other one is the nightblade.

[March]

Does Rift stealth work the same way that WoW stealth works?

Kind of. It's more like WAR with certain souls getting stealth abilities that last for 30seconds but one of the souls has a 21 point ability to make it last until broken/unstealthed/removed and a 31 point ability for vanish. I honestly haven't run into too many perma-stealthers in both open world and warfront pvp as most are going some sort of combo with saboteur/ranger/marks/bard/riftstalker, when the stealth abilities are in nightblade and assassin (assassin is where the perma stealth ability is as well).

Yes, but you can definitely build a PermaStealth/Marksman invisible-ranged-sniper for early DAoC type fun (though there does not appear to be a ranged uber-front-load-use-me-first-from-stealth ability).  I haven't had enough points to test it, but it's definitely in the offing.

[Segoris]

It definitely is an option, which I like. A ranged opener from stealth might not be a bad idea, possibly making something from marksmen have a second ability if casted from stealth would be kind of cool. Though ranged rogues really don't need a lot of help currently compared to melee rogues.

[Sobelius]

It definitely is an option, which I like. A ranged opener from stealth might not be a bad idea, possibly making something from marksmen have a second ability if casted from stealth would be kind of cool. Though ranged rogues really don't need a lot of help currently compared to melee rogues.

Aye. I took my MM focused rogue to 21 and though I got spanked a bit in the warfronts, I was frequently top damager. I pitied the few stealth rogues I saw trying to get to our thing-carrier in the Black Garden. So much effort to get in melee range, so much patience required to set up the positioning and timing, and then and so easy to drop the minute one person other than their target starts pounding them.

What might make an interesting mechanic is to give a stealther a combo point for each second they are stealthed and maintain the same target. So by the time they get to the target, they have a 5 point combo ready to fire, with a positional bonus to damage. Shrug. I prefer to "pew pew" (occasionally with "impewnity") and accept that the tradeoff is I get taken out pretty fast once a tank -- that knows what he's doing -- decides to take me out.

[Draegan]

Saboteur from stealth is so much more fun.

[Sobelius]

Saboteur from stealth is so much more fun.

People were crowing about their damage potential, but I never tried a full-focus with this soul. Instead I added it as a zero point option in my pvp build for two abilities: a 5 point combo instant finisher that can't be blocked/dodged/parried, and the AoE 70% speed reducer. I only thought to do this too late in the last beta so haven't used it in pvp yet, but am interested in seeing what it adds.

I do like this about Rift: it's not so much that the world is dynamic and can quickly change, but that my character is and can.

[ezrast]

Does Rift stealth work the same way that WoW stealth works?

I believe so, in that you're undetectable from behind and sometimes-detectable, dependent on range+level+RNG, from the front. That seems to match my experience stealthing around mobs anyway.

Some of the base concepts are very geared towards PvP though, you constantly get Defiant/Guardian NPC invasions for instance and there are quests to kill NPC's of the opposing faction.
So in some way it makes little sense to not have it.
Having said that; I don't see open world PvP without a lot of tears here (my personal crystal ball prediction: forget the whining about clerics, once people figure out how much power some of the rogue souls get at the top and more prime-builds get out there, it's going to be a rogue bonanza).

In betas 5/6 rogues were already all over the lowbie WFs I played.

My experience with open world PvP involved trying to run my level 20ish assassin to the Defiant questing areas and finding out that there are only two paths to get there, and both of them involve passing through narrow chokepoints filled with level 30ish mobs. I tried running past them dead, but couldn't find a GY to rez at anywhere in the southern half of the map (if you can even rez at a different GY than the one you get ported to when you die; I know you can't in WoW). Is non-instanced PvP even possible before level 30?

[Threash]

I imagine you can soulwalk past them once an hour.

[kildorn]

In 5/6, MMs were everywhere. They're a little crazy on the sudden damage spikes and pretty good at keeping out of melee trouble.

My consolation prize was having multiple knockbacks, so I could punt people into the water on the capture and hold map <3

[Kageru]

I will be interested to see if the flexibility of their class system bites them in the ass when they can't make changes to it anymore. The WoW developers set themselves a much easier challenge (fewer, more iconic classes with less flexibility) and still got into trouble. That sort of thing tends to get under-emphasised in beta where nobody is too attached to their characters and balance is considered to be in-flux anyway.

[Modern Angel]

They trimmed the trees already and it feels alright to me right about here. The thing is that if balance gets a bit out of whack on some souls it's not like you have to reroll entirely; you just switch specs. This is counter to every other game, where if your shaman or whatever is dogshit you have to go start from level one.


Also, bear in mind that they're very explicitly balancing classes with one another, not souls, so all souls will not be equal.

[kildorn]

The latest round actually tries to murder tri-speccing, by adding powerful skills that gain X per point over 21 spent in that tree. Basically trying to simplify balance a bit by rewarding heavily investing into a tree (and thus creating a balance map of Soul A vs Soul B, instead of "permutation of doom A versus ... X Y and Z"