Rift: Planes of Telara

[Draegan]

No.

[HaemishM]

I don't think most vets despise the Diku as much as they let on at times.

Hey, I can play DIKU, I can even enjoy myself with it. But man, I really want someone to do SOMETHING-THE-FUCK-ELSE. DIKU has been done, well done, overdone and badly done. It's time for some new shit to bitch about, but MMOG's keep serving us the same old shit with the same old problems and the same old inherent flaws and telling us it's the NEXT GENERATION OF MMOGS. No, assgobllin, if it's DIKU, it's not, it's the same first generation shit we've been playing since EQ.

[jakonovski]

No.

Thank Cthulhu.

[Ollie]

I don't think most vets despise the Diku as much as they let on at times.

Hey, I can play DIKU, I can even enjoy myself with it. But man, I really want someone to do SOMETHING-THE-FUCK-ELSE. DIKU has been done, well done, overdone and badly done. It's time for some new shit to bitch about, but MMOG's keep serving us the same old shit with the same old problems and the same old inherent flaws and telling us it's the NEXT GENERATION OF MMOGS. No, assgobllin, if it's DIKU, it's not, it's the same first generation shit we've been playing since EQ.

You and I are in the same boat, and we are hardly alone. The boat might be so crowded, in fact, that it's about to capsize. Someone is bound to make a game for us sooner or later.

Yes, I tell myself that every day. 

[Ghambit]

The sad fact is DIKU offers the widest variety of theme and design flexibility, yet every studio pigeon-holes themselves into one generic type (fantasy, sword and sorcery, questgrinds, etc.).  It's the equivalent of thinking the only pen&paper game out there (including epic boardgames) is D&D, fuck all the rest.

[Tarami]

No, DIKU really doesn't offer the best design flexibility. Tanking/healing/CC or whatever you want to define as the Holy Trinity are central to DIKU. That's not a combination of mechanics that make sense in many settings - for example nothing that only has ranged combat. It needs a mix of melee/ranged to make sense and that basically makes it fantasy by definition, kind of how Star Wars is fantasy in space while Star Trek isn't. I guess you could make an all-melee game and still have it work, but what's the point? Neolithism Online?

DIKU has intrinsic player dynamics. That is the point of it. You're one of paper, rock, scissors each. It gives classes distinct meaning with relatively little design headaches. By extension, the Trinity and classes are so tightly coupled that you basically can't make a DIKU without classes - because any freeform skill progression will end up as cookie-cutter specs (i.e. classes) in order to satisfy the requirements on roles in a group.

Corollary, since there's no real point in having freeform skills, you will need a player progression which advances the player along a predefined arc. Ding, you got levels. You can theoretically make a DIKU without them but at this point levels are expected. A DIKU without levels would be an unreasonably hard sell. It's also undesirable from a design perspective, because levels let the designers unroll the world successively. It's both a carrot for the player and a design convenience.

Once a designer says "we're going to need tanks, and healers," he/she has implicitly subscribed to a whole swathe of designs because the alternatives we know do not make sense in combination. The game including Elves with a 99% certainty is one of them.

DIKUs have incredibly short shelf-life, because they depend on PvE encounters that leverage the class interdynamics. Encounters are used up, so content patches and expansions are required continuously. But since content takes much longer to create than consume, you need a Skinner box to make it stay appealing for longer. If you also make the content you add progressively harder, it reinforces the Skinner box, giving additional motivation to the players to "gear up" (which by that time is a well understood mechanism, since that's what they've been doing while levelling.)

No, DIKU pretty much gives  you EQ/WoW/LotRO with some minor variations. It's a design concept you eventually have to embrace pretty much wholesale.

[Draegan]

Oh that's a good post.

[Hoax]

I've given up on hating DIKU at this point I just hate auto attack + hotkey combat and refuse to fuck with games that have it unless they are incredibly compelling in some other way.

[Tarami]

I'm not hating. I'm explaining, from my point of view, why all games employing DIKU mechanics are structurally identical - it's inevitable, basically.

[Ghambit]

Oh that's a good post.

'Cept that it's wrong.
The point in me saying DIKU offers flexibility is that quite simply, a quasi-turn based trinity model is in reality a VERY objective ruleset.  There are a million and one different variations of this core design tenet in the gaming market.  JUST NOT IN THE MMO market.  So saying flat out that "DIKU really doesnt offer the best design flexibility" is really just plain stupid.

DIKU has its roots in the Dungeons&Dragons world and ruleset.  Most diku devs. are flat out old MUD and D&D lovers... so, what do they do??  They translate that directly into modern 3d gameplay online (world and ruleset entirely).  This is not the fault of the DIKU model.  DIKU itself though just represents what I said, a turn-based classed MP RPG.  That's it.  You can design a shitload of VERY compelling games using this.   The fact that very few have does not mean that DIKU sux or that DIKU is pigeon-holed.

I tend to think people that bash DIKU really arent "gamers" in the sense they collect and study the different products out there that use the model (pen and paper-wise).  They're just people that link DIKU with online high fantasy D&D clones and it ends there.  Those people are wrong and need to look around some more.  Or for that matter, into the true history of Diku... which really started with Arneson and his clan freestyling around a dungeon using generic wargaming rules.  Those same basic "rules" got applied to a helluva lot of different types of games, each that offer original experiences.

The only viable argument is Hoax', and that's just that he doesnt like auto-attack+hotkey.

[Tarami]

No. D&D is not DIKU. What you're describing is essentially nothing.

Koster should have a clue, shouldn't he?

You're just removing all the traditional attributes of a DIKU-derivative and calling me stupid for not thinking PnP games are DIKU. They are not, have never been. They just share some aspects.

[Mrbloodworth]

Here we go again! 

[HaemishM]

Can we just agree that DIKU has been used in very horribly boring ways in MMOG's and move the fuck on?

[Tarami]

I don't see why not. My intention was never to define DIKU - I thought we were going with some kind of relevant point of reference when using that term. Please replace all my mentions of DIKU with "WoW-clone" and we're done.

[Lantyssa]

Can we just agree that DIKU has been used in very horribly boring ways in MMOG's and move the fuck on?

Yes.

I do have to add the Holy Trinity is a more modern development than DIKU.  Though they have evolved been hopelessly entwined since MUDs went graphical.

[DLRiley]

I've given up on hating DIKU at this point I just hate auto attack + hotkey combat and refuse to fuck with games that have it unless they are incredibly compelling in some other way.

Would button mashing "active/directional/real time" combat based on EQ/UO derivatives be more fun? Err AoC, FE, DF, TR, TCoSB, say your wrong.

The diku isn't tired or dead for the masses, the diku charging 15 dollars a month is dead. It will be phased out of continuity as the cashshop becomes the primary business models, with maybe a sub "premium" service attached. Diku's will be made cheaper and will try less and less to fall out of the WoW line of gaming mmo*** that isn't mmorpg being a haphazard effort like buying real estate in Baltimore; 1 out of every 1000000 houses each "this will be the new dc" idiot buys may become marginally profitable.

[Ghambit]

No. D&D is not DIKU. What you're describing is essentially nothing.

You're just removing all the traditional attributes of a DIKU-derivative and calling me stupid for not thinking PnP games are DIKU. They are not, have never been. They just share some aspects.

I never said D&D is Diku.  I said Diku is based on D&D and pen&paper concepts (which every retard who knows his/her gaming history knows).  You're subjectifying my argument for the sake of your own.  Dont do that.  Also, it goes way beyond simply "sharing some concepts."  I also didnt call you stupid... I said your statement is stupid - which it was.  You were essentially saying the equivalent of "realtime reticule style combat doesnt offer design flexibility."   It makes no sense.  All these mechanics are merely tools; you either fuck up with the tool or you dont.

I feel some of what you were trying to say though.  So whatever.

Can we just agree that DIKU has been used in very horribly boring ways in MMOG's and move the fuck on?

Yes

Also, the diku model isnt this game's real issue.  It's the other stuff.

[Hoax]

I've given up on hating DIKU at this point I just hate auto attack + hotkey combat and refuse to fuck with games that have it unless they are incredibly compelling in some other way.

Would button mashing "active/directional/real time" combat based on EQ/UO derivatives be more fun? Err AoC, FE, DF, TR, TCoSB, say your wrong.

Yes the combat would be more fun. Double super infinity more fun when it comes to pvp.

Was the combat in Darkfall or Spellborn less fun by virtue of them being half assed shit games or because the combat mechanics were inferior? Seriously your point is WoW is a better game than everything else including everything else that has had some other form of combat mechanics and therefore auto attack is the best combat system?

Piss right the fuck off.

[Tarami]

All these mechanics are merely tools; you either fuck up with the tool or you dont.

Okay. Let's leave what DIKU is or isn't - it's irrelevant and a rehash of a million discussions as has been mentioned.

My point in this context was that Rifts is borrowing heavily from WoW - not any older system, regardless of the history of WoW's predecessors in turn - and by extension, that means it will try to copy WoW's group dynamics, which is one of its most easily identifiable mechanics. This is what MMOs have been doing the past couple of years - mimicking WoW, not some old MUD. With that in mind, I'm saying there won't come a game that manages to copy just the group dynamics and then make some vastly different game, in a vastly different setting. That's because WoW's setting (and incidentally, EQ's), implementation of a Skinner box and various other systems are closely tied to how groups work and how player roles are defined.

Meaning, if you just rip the concept of a trinity from WoW, you're going to eventually end up with something very similar to WoW after enough iterations. It's that core a concept (the main source of whine is who does this and that role best) and at the same time it's the most attractive of the mechanics to borrow because it's the mechanism with which players have already identified.

[Draegan]

The trinity goes all the way back to MUDs.  Tanks, DPS, Healers (not much CC in the MUD days).

I wouldn't say RIFT is borrowing heavily from WOW, but more furthering the genre (I hope).  From SojourMUD to EQ to WOW to whatever is next.  Everyone had the trinity concept in some fashion.  New comers will see it as a WOW clone, I'll see it as an amazing progression from the MUD I first started playing in 1994.

[UnSub]

No.

Thank Cthulhu.

They are being sued / have legal action against them by the Rifts guy, however.

The trinity goes all the way back to MUDs.  Tanks, DPS, Healers (not much CC in the MUD days).

I wouldn't say RIFT is borrowing heavily from WOW, but more furthering the genre (I hope).  From SojourMUD to EQ to WOW to whatever is next.  Everyone had the trinity concept in some fashion.  New comers will see it as a WOW clone, I'll see it as an amazing progression from the MUD I first started playing in 1994.

The trinity is really three uber-specialist classes - you can either take damage, heal damage or do damage. Most classes are a combo of these factors, given that in a DIKU 'damage' is really the only metric that counts given the importance of combat.

The vast, vast, vast majority of titles in all genres offer evolutionary change, not revolutionary. I believe that White Wolf's Storyteller system managed to be be (briefly?) more popular than D&D, but arguably it didn't reinvent PnPRPGs - it took a dice mechanic system and added more layers to it (while also making players buy enough dice that they could beat each other to death with their dice bags) while placing the game in a different genre.

Rift looks interesting in its evolution of the PQ - making it random, making it player influenced - and some of the classes look interesting, but it isn't reshaping the genre wholesale. With any luck it will be polished enough and fun at launch.

[DLRiley]

I've given up on hating DIKU at this point I just hate auto attack + hotkey combat and refuse to fuck with games that have it unless they are incredibly compelling in some other way.

Would button mashing "active/directional/real time" combat based on EQ/UO derivatives be more fun? Err AoC, FE, DF, TR, TCoSB, say your wrong.

Yes the combat would be more fun. Double super infinity more fun when it comes to pvp.

Was the combat in Darkfall or Spellborn less fun by virtue of them being half assed shit games or because the combat mechanics were inferior? Seriously your point is WoW is a better game than everything else including everything else that has had some other form of combat mechanics and therefore auto attack is the best combat system?

Piss right the fuck off.

don't get pissy. The combat of spellborn registered all sorts of holy shit up until i've done the same combo to the same bear, 130 times. The thrill of no auto attack was lost in 40 minutes. You missed the point, combat can't be fun if the game is not fun. Its a mute point for me who doesn't play WoW to pick up WoW because itrs plays like god of war. You've basically said that maple story is the best game on the internet (WoW with Mario GAMEPLAY FUCK YEAH.....)

[Draegan]

Rift looks interesting in its evolution of the PQ - making it random, making it player influenced - and some of the classes look interesting, but it isn't reshaping the genre wholesale. With any luck it will be polished enough and fun at launch.

Anyone who expects more than this is kidding themselves.

[DLRiley]

Rift looks interesting in its evolution of the PQ - making it random, making it player influenced - and some of the classes look interesting, but it isn't reshaping the genre wholesale. With any luck it will be polished enough and fun at launch.

Anyone who expects more than this is kidding themselves.

That would still be a vast improvement over what we have now. Like make me interested in pve again improvement.

[Draegan]

Also true.

[tkinnun0]

A random heroic dungeon in WoW: 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS; the epitome of the Holy Trinity and DIKU?

Except Blizzard could make a few changes:

* Prevent mobs from landing critical strikes
* Scale mob damage based on the target's armor type (cloth<leather<mail<plate)
* Add a computer-controller mercenary that heals whoever has the lowest health.

Suddenly you're looking at a random heroic dungeon with 4 DPS, and the funny thing is, for the vast majority of the player-base the experience would be exactly the same. Mobs would still be running all over the place, but this time by design. So no longer a DIKU?

[Malakili]

A random heroic dungeon in WoW: 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS; the epitome of the Holy Trinity and DIKU?

Except Blizzard could make a few changes:

* Prevent mobs from landing critical strikes
* Scale mob damage based on the target's armor type (cloth<leather<mail<plate)
* Add a computer-controller mercenary that heals whoever has the lowest health.

Suddenly you're looking at a random heroic dungeon with 4 DPS, and the funny thing is, for the vast majority of the player-base the experience would be exactly the same. Mobs would still be running all over the place, but this time by design. So no longer a DIKU?

It really doesn't work all that well. Champions Online tried to make the trinity obsolete but the result is just that group content turns into everyone just spamming offensive abilities, then when they have aggro using defensivabilities, and so forth.  Not that the trinity is the be all and end all, but a bunch of mindless DPS zerg isn't really any better.

[Nija]

The trinity goes all the way back to MUDs.  Tanks, DPS, Healers (not much CC in the MUD days).

Is this some kind of tangential troll? When people say DIKU they are shortening the term DIKUMUD.

No shit, the trinity goes back to MUDs. That's what this entire page is about!

I'm a DIKU hater, but that's due to burnout and knowing the limitations of the game within a few minutes of playing it. Hell, I'm not even really that interested in games that have the basic mechanic of "targeting mobs". Much less tanking/healing.

[Ghambit]

Diku isnt diku because of MUDs.  Diku is diku because of tabletop gaming.  All it is is a DIRECT online representation of a pen&paper game, which goes back to the early 70's.  If you want to argue and study DIKU you have to consider the history of where it comes from and why it's still used today.  Matter of fact, all the foibles of the current Diku online games are the same fuckin complaints you get at the tabletop for the past 30 years...  FOR CERTAIN GAMES, If they're shit designs.

[Draegan]

The trinity goes all the way back to MUDs.  Tanks, DPS, Healers (not much CC in the MUD days).

Is this some kind of tangential troll? When people say DIKU they are shortening the term DIKUMUD.

No shit, the trinity goes back to MUDs. That's what this entire page is about!

I'm a DIKU hater, but that's due to burnout and knowing the limitations of the game within a few minutes of playing it. Hell, I'm not even really that interested in games that have the basic mechanic of "targeting mobs". Much less tanking/healing.

Are you attempting to be some sort of asshole now?  Yes no shit it goes back to MUDs, you know that, I know that, some people don't even fucking know what a MUD is.

Thank you for commenting.

[tkinnun0]

It really doesn't work all that well.

I'm not saying that the Holy Trinity is worse, I'm saying that when it comes to the Looking-For-Dungeon-tool, Blizzard could get rid of the trinity and apart from boss battles the vast majority of the player-base might not even notice.

[DLRiley]

A random heroic dungeon in WoW: 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS; the epitome of the Holy Trinity and DIKU?

Except Blizzard could make a few changes:

* Prevent mobs from landing critical strikes
* Scale mob damage based on the target's armor type (cloth<leather<mail<plate)
* Add a computer-controller mercenary that heals whoever has the lowest health.

Suddenly you're looking at a random heroic dungeon with 4 DPS, and the funny thing is, for the vast majority of the player-base the experience would be exactly the same. Mobs would still be running all over the place, but this time by design. So no longer a DIKU?

Or

Have mobs attack the guy with the lowest hp and armor in their aggro radius
mix the mobs to have range, healers, meleedps, and cc
Have the mobs switch targets often, if they notice someone isn't dieing in 5 minutes time to hit someone else.

ooh guild wars why do mmos fail so much....

[Ghambit]

It really doesn't work all that well.

I'm not saying that the Holy Trinity is worse, I'm saying that when it comes to the Looking-For-Dungeon-tool, Blizzard could get rid of the trinity and apart from boss battles the vast majority of the player-base might not even notice.

Those people who enjoy playing support classes would notice.  
Also, personally I would not risk my 4hr. 20 or 40-man raid to an AI heal-bot.  There are plenty of instances where only a human can do the job, hence why pretty much EVERY game that's tried to automate "housekeeping" (and make every toon an EveryHero) has failed, for a variety of reasons.
Reinventing the wheel is reinventing.

It's useless fighting the Diku model.  It's the most perfected social gaming premise ever devised (yet digital versions are still lightyears behind).  Bitching about it at this point is like complaining that water is too slippery.  You'll fuckin drink it and like it regardless.

[Tarami]

Seriously, during the ~10 years I played PnP RPGs from all kinds of genres, I never once came across anyone suggesting they would "tank" a monster or anything as nonsensically mechanical. It may exist as a concept in some RPGs, but it's never-ever required, unlike online games.

I mean, if I GM'ed a group and the warrior said "I taunt the orc!" without verbally doing so in an appropriate language, I'd laugh and have the orc kick the rogue in the nuts. Threat just doesn't make sense in a PnP RPG in my opinion, because you have someone actually playing the monsters. It makes sense to have someone strong and/or tough but that's just a group flexibility consideration, not a mechanical one.

[Malakili]

Seriously, during the ~10 years I played PnP RPGs from all kinds of genres, I never once came across anyone suggesting they would "tank" a monster or anything as nonsensically mechanical. It may exist as a concept in some RPGs, but it's never-ever required, unlike online games.

I mean, if I GM'ed a group and the warrior said "I taunt the orc!" without verbally doing so in an appropriate language, I'd laugh and have the orc kick the rogue in the nuts. Threat just doesn't make sense in a PnP RPG in my opinion, because you have someone actually playing the monsters. It makes sense to have someone strong and/or tough but that's just a group flexibility consideration, not a mechanical one.

Well, 4th edition DnD basically embraces the concept, but then again, that isn't exactly agreed upon as a good decision among the pencil and paper community.  However, I agree with your post 100%, and its one of the reasons I like dungeons and dragons a lot more than the computer variations, perhaps the with one caveat that its nice to be able to play D&D in a single player setting.  However, I think thats far more represented by say, Baldur's Gate than World of Warcraft.  One of the huge advantages of playing fighter in D&D was the huge amount of flexibility you had in how you designed your character, not the fact that it was the "tanking class"