Here comes the next content patch (3.2)

[Trippy]

The PVP fight fucking sucks since it's nothing like PVP. The faction heroes machinegun spells and abilities with nary a cooldown in sight, they have unlimited mana you cannot fucking burn through, and they heal for way WAY more than even your most epic'd out raid member. It's not too hard but it's a dumb fight.

Well okay then NM what I said

(I haven't played WoW in years)

Edit: added quote since my post ended up at the top of a new page

[Triforcer]

The PVP fight fucking sucks since it's nothing like PVP. The faction heroes machinegun spells and abilities with nary a cooldown in sight, they have unlimited mana you cannot fucking burn through, and they heal for way WAY more than even your most epic'd out raid member. It's not too hard but it's a dumb fight.

...Sooo, we agree calling it PvP is stupid? 

[WindupAtheist]

Maybe you could help us understand the fight with a detailed breakdown historically in WoW lore why it makes sense. With references.

I think the brief video featured here should adequately explain the complex relationship between the Alliance, Horde, and Argent Crusade as it relates to the faction champion fight.

Nobody wants to pve in pvp or pvp in pve, chuckles.

Unless there's some system whereby you can queue up to appear as one of the enemies in someone else's raid instance (which would be TOTALLY AWESOME by the way) you're not getting any PVP in your PVE. What you're getting is an AI script just smart enough to not go "I'M SO MAD AT THAT TANK! ALSO YOUR ADDONS SHOULD BE TELLING YOU RIGHT NOW THAT I'M CHARGIN UP MAH LAZER!"

[Hindenburg]

Unless there's some system whereby you can queue up to appear as one of the enemies in someone else's raid instance (which would be TOTALLY AWESOME by the way)

This is probably the best idea you've ever had.

[Rasix]

Concept's been around.  See most recently Demon Souls.

WoW players would never put up with it.

[Hawkbit]

Unless there's some system whereby you can queue up to appear as one of the enemies in someone else's raid instance (which would be TOTALLY AWESOME by the way)

This is probably the best idea you've ever had.

It's called Arenas; just pretend you fight trash first.

[Hindenburg]

Fuck that, I wanna queue to be assigned as an Ulduar trash mob, or as boss, being able to determine where the fire/tentacles/voidzone/spout will spawn, and being rewarded for my job according to the number of players I kill. Let me choose who the snobolds will attack, let me delay stomps and impales, and let me determine how often I'll fart a poison cloud.

[Paelos]

The PVP fight fucking sucks since it's nothing like PVP. The faction heroes machinegun spells and abilities with nary a cooldown in sight, they have unlimited mana you cannot fucking burn through, and they heal for way WAY more than even your most epic'd out raid member. It's not too hard but it's a dumb fight.

...Sooo, we agree calling it PvP is stupid?  

You can call it PvPvEvPvX if you want. It's still horridly designed and imo breaks the "golden rule" that they weren't going to design fights around the fact they know you have dual specs. At least 3 of my raid members have to switch in that fight, minimum.

EDIT: Also, the fight on 25 man is easier. Most people know that by now. So why have we gone back to the Naxx days of 10 man content being harder? Why? Because they scaled the fight incorrectly. You have a 2.5 to 1 advantage plus more class balance in the 25 man, but you only have a 1.67 to 1 advantage in the 10 man, and less balance to boot. If they wanted to get it right, you should only be fighting 4 mobs in the 10 man, or 15 on the 25 man. The numbers are just off.

[Simond]

Concept's been around.  See most recently Demon Souls.

WoW players would never put up with it.

Verant-era EQ did it for about 24 hours before pulling it because it was too unfair to players.

"Verant-era EQ" & "Too unfair to players"
Let that sink in for a while.

[Jayce]

Whatever happened to monster play in LotRO?  That was the same sort of thing right?

[DayDream]

I don't play LotRO more than a free trial, but as I understand it, monster play is split from your regular PvE.  It's more like regular open world points of interest pvp, with one side having different character models and maybe classes.

[Fabricated]

The PVP fight fucking sucks since it's nothing like PVP. The faction heroes machinegun spells and abilities with nary a cooldown in sight, they have unlimited mana you cannot fucking burn through, and they heal for way WAY more than even your most epic'd out raid member. It's not too hard but it's a dumb fight.

...Sooo, we agree calling it PvP is stupid? 

I call it a PvP fight since it's against mobs that are actual player classes that only use player-accessable skills. The problem is that theirs are on steroids and they never ever, ever run out of energy/mana and have no cooldowns on their abilities. Their AI is basically like playing against an arena team of 10 year-old coke addicts, only their characters have 20 times the HP and the mentioned lack of mana/energy/CD worries.

[Khaldun]

Yeah. I mean, ok, let's suppose I have control over a Blizz mob. If I've got control, how are you going to handle tanking abilities that compel choice of targets? If I have to attack whomever the threat mechanics say I have to attack, the only thing I control is the timing of specials: it's not really control in any sort of interesting or amusing way. If I'm given a choice of targets, I'm going to going and rape the healers and casters, which is already an insta-wipe situation with the AI in control of most mobs. About the only way you could give players a fun degree of control and not have it be "I'm in command of a healer-gibbing machine" is to let players control mobs that have the occasional ability to escape or wipe threat (say, with fear or other abilities) so you could try to slip the leash if the players are careless enough to allow that.

[Paelos]

Yep, tanking becomes totally worthless. That's always a good idea in pve fights. 

[WindupAtheist]

I think they should clone the entire raid and throw it at you with exactly your HP and abilities and an intelligent PVP script, and if you can't beat them you can fuck off and quit pretending you're "skilled" at the game because you can make a dragon obliviously stomp one guy for half an hour while you murder it.

 

[Paelos]

I think they should clone the entire raid and throw it at you with exactly your HP and abilities and an intelligent PVP script, and if you can't beat them you can fuck off and quit pretending you're "skilled" at the game because you can make a dragon obliviously stomp one guy for half an hour while you murder it.

 

I would have been perfectly happy with that. It would at least show some sort of intelligent, balanced design in their encounters rather than making a bunch of Faction He-Men that aren't bound by any natural rules.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Except that the faction champion fight isn't hard, it's only the mid-boss of the dungeon and you're bitching about it like it's the penultimate fight in wow. The whine is strong here.

[SurfD]

Except that the faction champion fight isn't hard, it's only the mid-boss of the dungeon and you're bitching about it like it's the penultimate fight in wow. The whine is strong here.

Its not "hard" exactly, the problem is that it requires a TOTAL shift in operating prociedure for dealing with it, as compared to pretty much every raid fight currently released in WoLK.    The sudden change from standard PvE boss fight of tanks keeping aggro and healers dealing with the odd AoE ability from the boss while your DPS just Pew Pew while not standing in shit to "Holy fuck, there are 10 mobs with no aggro table running around raping the shit out of anything that piques their interest, changing targets every 10 seconds, and 3 of them are healers who put out more HPS individually then all the healers in your raid combined unless you chain cc them" can be a HUGE throw off to anyone who is not expecting it or does not have at least a moderate idea of how to react to it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Right, boo hoo?

Look, I'd be more forgiving if

A. wow pvp tactics were some new concept just introduced in the game. Hell, I don't even like pvp but I understand how it's done and it's not that much of a brain shift.

B. The encounter wasn't being one and two-shotted by guilds. I'm not in a bleeding edge guild, finished uld 10 hardmodes, working on 25 hardmodes still and there was zero issue with killing them, no re-speccing in either version, nothing except "cc the healers" "ok"

C. That this encounter was more important than it was, you might as well be arguing that hogger is overpowered for all it really matters.

D. That this instance was somehow deemed 'pug friendly'  and it hasn't been to my knowledge.  It's not supposed to be easy and fun is subjective. Personally I thought the switching gears for one fight out of the hundrededs I've just spammed the same rotation is refreshing.  I get that you don't like it but of all the shitty things the argent tournement has brought us(fuck you jousting) this is not one of them.

[Soulflame]

B. The encounter wasn't being one and two-shotted by guilds. I'm not in a bleeding edge guild, finished uld 10 hardmodes, working on 25 hardmodes still and there was zero issue with killing them, no re-speccing in either version, nothing except "cc the healers" "ok"

Sorry, but right there?  What you typed?  You're in a hardcore guild.  Probably in the top 5% or higher of even the raiding playerbase.

My guild is #2 or 3 hordeside on my server, and we can't even finish Uld 10 hard, nor down YS in 25.  I'm not even sure we can down YS without bringing in different melee (brain room failure has got us down, maaaan.)  We haven't even attempted hardmodes in 25, outside of FL 2 towers, although that's mostly so we can get as far towards progressing as we possibly can.

So far as I know, we're well within the top 10000 raiding guilds in the world.  And yes, the "PvP" fight isn't that hard in Uld gear.  We managed to three or four shot the fight (I don't quite recall) and it was obvious we were going to get it eventually, it was simply a matter of keeping enough people alive while the first two NPCs went down.  As the guild gears up, the fight will become even easier.

[Paelos]

Except that the faction champion fight isn't hard, it's only the mid-boss of the dungeon and you're bitching about it like it's the penultimate fight in wow. The whine is strong here.

I don't give a fuck about the difficulty of the fight. I do care that it basically says, "Hey those tanks you brought that you need to do everything else in here? Yeah, fuck those guys. We aren't gonna pay attention to them." I also care that this fight runs totally counter to their "bring the player, not the class" philosophy in order to be successful. Also, it's incorrectly tuned between 25 and 10 man.

Easy or not, it's a stupid design decision. All the QQ L2P nonsense doesn't negate the fact that it's poorly executed and annoying to a large percentage of the players. Check the pretty much 50/50 split on other forums you see regarding this fight. I personally don't enjoy it, while others like it. Hell, jousting is annoying as hell, but what makes that fight shitty is it's poorly designed as well. However, if you run out it's damned easy. Does that make it a good fight because it's easy? No.

[Ingmar]

If they're stunnable/snareable/interruptable there should be an absolute ton of ways you can contribute as a protection warrior in that fight. I arena'd in prot spec for a while and while we didn't set the world on fire there is really a LOT of pvp utility in a proper protection spec. Maybe it is worse for the other tanks, though.

[Nevermore]

At this point in the game, I think literally every class has some kind of CC.  People have just forgotten how to use it in PvE.

[Sjofn]

If they're stunnable/snareable/interruptable there should be an absolute ton of ways you can contribute as a protection warrior in that fight. I arena'd in prot spec for a while and while we didn't set the world on fire there is really a LOT of pvp utility in a proper protection spec. Maybe it is worse for the other tanks, though.

DKs and druids should also be fine in a PvP fight. Protection paladins are the only ones I can think of that might have issues. But then they could always just throw on a holy suit and heal like a motherfucker like they do in arena. 

[Fabricated]

I'm not in a bleeding edge guild, finished uld 10 hardmodes

These two things contradict eachother. If you can do Firefighter, Knock Knock Knock on wood, One Light, and/or down Algalon you are way the fuck above 99.99999999% of guilds. Even if it's only in the 10-man.

[Rendakor]

I got Firefighter in a PUG on 10 man. Just saying.

[Fabricated]

I got Firefighter in a PUG on 10 man. Just saying.

That pug is better than 99% of guilds then. Your point?

[Rendakor]

The point is that your 99% figure is bullshit.

[Gobbeldygook]

The point is that your 99% figure is bullshit.

Of the guilds indexed by wowprogress, 1.37% have completed firefighter on heroic.  I'm unsure where they bury their statistics for non-heroic achievements, but on my own server, only two Horde guilds have completed Firefighter on 10 man.  I think one or two alliance guilds have also done so.

[Lakov_Sanite]

We just killed the alliance champions with 23 people in one attempt. Whether my guild is hardcore or not, this fight is a joke.  All you have to do is decurse everything and use every cc you have.  No spec switching, no raid stacking.

Is it stupid? No, it's fun to have a change of pace. I enjoyed tanking the warrior as a spriest cause he wouldn't leave me alone.

[Hindenburg]

Whether my guild is hardcore or not, this fight is a joke.

So is Gormok, and i've yet to find a healer that isn't busy masturbating when it's my time to taunt.

Dude, you're the minority, deal with it.

[Fabricated]

The point is that your 99% figure is bullshit.

No, I'm pretty much right.

[Oban]

New pet in 3.2.2  

Pandaren Monk - Right Click to summon and dismiss your pandaren monk.

[Trippy]

New pet in 3.2.2  

Pandaren Monk - Right Click to summon and dismiss your pandaren monk.

Fuck.

[Paelos]

We just killed the alliance champions with 23 people in one attempt. Whether my guild is hardcore or not, this fight is a joke.  All you have to do is decurse everything and use every cc you have.  No spec switching, no raid stacking.

Is it stupid? No, it's fun to have a change of pace. I enjoyed tanking the warrior as a spriest cause he wouldn't leave me alone.

You pay no attention. The rage you hear from people is about the 10 man. The 25 man has the right class balances and people to keep rolling CC's on that large of a player v. mob advantage. The complaint is about the design of the 10 man encounter.