Dungeon Blather

[dd0029]

You don't need to be that geared for heroics if you are just DPS'ing.  Most quest greens from Sholazar and up should be sufficient.  DPS should probably make sure they have the weapons from the arena quest in Zul'drak.  The Honored blues for most reps are good too and not out of reach if you get the zone quest achievements.  Weapons show up at Revered mostly.  Combine them with some of the tradeskill items and you should be good to go.  Tanks need to hit the defense cap though.  And a healer will probably want to have a heroic geared tank if they are just starting. 

[Selby]

You don't need to be that geared for heroics if you are just DPS'ing.

Agreed.  The curve for this vs. TBC heroics is drastically different.  You can start out in heroics if you are mostly in quest blues.  Obviously if you are a tank you have more riding on your performance and gear, along with being the only healer in the group may also not be so great.

[Rasix]

You don't need to be that geared for heroics if you are just DPS'ing. 

You should at least try.  DPSers pulling sub 1k DPS (of course, movement heavy fights and gimmicks fights excluded) are just being a drag on the group.  If you're pulling sub 1k and you're a DK, delete your account (or maybe try another technique, like using both hands).

It's really not difficult to have just about every slot in a crafted/rep/quest blue outside of trinkets.  Going in obscenely undergeared is a choice and a rather rude one at that. 

[Selby]

You should at least try.  DPSers pulling sub 1k DPS (of course, movement heavy fights and gimmicks fights excluded) are just being a drag on the group.

That's a completely different story.  As a mage with quest blues, I was pulling 1200-1300DPS on the average boss fight where I was supposed to just DPS and not be on web or harpoon duty.

We had a PUG DK join our Naxx10 group one night and his DPS was like 400.  Ended up kicking him out after a few fights where he complained about how hard it was to do good damage.

[Soulflame]

I'd roll my eyes at anyone doing 1300 dps or less in a heroic.

[Sheepherder]

1300 is marginal for quest blues.  It largely depends on iLevel and stat allocation though.  My mage is mostly iLevel 200 with three epics and I can normally manage ~2000 in a heroic on a single target, though my connection is so bad recently that it has timed out while loading google during peak.

[Selby]

It largely depends on iLevel and stat allocation though.

Not to mention build.  My mage as frost was giving up 1700-1800DPS in all Naxx-10 gear and with an arcane build it's considerably more than that in certain bosses and situations.

[SurfD]

We had a PUG DK join our Naxx10 group one night and his DPS was like 400.  Ended up kicking him out after a few fights where he complained about how hard it was to do good damage.

I would love to know exactly how some people manage that kind of shit at 80.   My alt ret paladin is 75 right now.  I was managing to pull about 1600 dps in violet hold and Drak'theron.   I mean, unless you have completely skipped +hit as a stat on all of your gear, most mele classes can practically maintain more then 400 dps simply auto attacking shit.

A DK should be able to maintain 800 + dps easy just spamming nothing but X strike (for whatever spec he is) whenever his runes refresh and Deathcoil whenever he has enough runic power.

[Fabricated]

We had a PUG DK join our Naxx10 group one night and his DPS was like 400.  Ended up kicking him out after a few fights where he complained about how hard it was to do good damage.

I would love to know exactly how some people manage that kind of shit at 80.   My alt ret paladin is 75 right now.  I was managing to pull about 1600 dps in violet hold and Drak'theron.   I mean, unless you have completely skipped +hit as a stat on all of your gear, most mele classes can practically maintain more then 400 dps simply auto attacking shit.

A DK should be able to maintain 800 + dps easy just spamming nothing but X strike (for whatever spec he is) whenever his runes refresh and Deathcoil whenever he has enough runic power.

I can do 700DPS on a combat dummy with my level 60 DK in starter blues...I just don't get it. It's so easy to DPS as a DK, you have an infinite supply of ability usage that isn't effected by how much damage you do or take and even picking bad abilities doesn't hurt you like it does say a rogue or druid.

[Kail]

1300 is marginal for quest blues...  (snip...) I can normally manage ~2000 in a heroic on a single target, though my connection is so bad recently that it has timed out while loading google during peak.

Yikes, I must really suck ass... I'm running Naxx 10 with a Palladin and a DK.  The Paladin is just a flasher, but he's ret offspec, so gets to roll when plate drops that's crappier than our mass of DKs are toting.  So he's got two or three Naxx pieces, some of the PvP pieces, and some of the purple crafting pieces, and still only pulls in about 1.3k on a single target.  The DK's tanking, but his tanking gear (since it's Naxx stuff) has more DPS than his DPS gear, and even then only pulls a little over 1k dps.

[apocrypha]

Well, I'd like to be reasonably geared as DPS for a few reasons. My server has a very small Horde population, getting groups is hard anyway, it would be even harder if it was widely known that "that stupid shaman LFG only does 900 DPS".

Also, enchanting and gemming gear kinda doesn't seem worth the expense if the gear is really crappy.

And as people say, dragging a group down with crappy DPS is indeed rude.

As for the paladin, well, badly geared healers aren't fun for anyone 

[Rasix]

1300 is marginal for quest blues...  (snip...) I can normally manage ~2000 in a heroic on a single target, though my connection is so bad recently that it has timed out while loading google during peak.

Yikes, I must really suck ass... I'm running Naxx 10 with a Palladin and a DK.  The Paladin is just a flasher, but he's ret offspec, so gets to roll when plate drops that's crappier than our mass of DKs are toting.  So he's got two or three Naxx pieces, some of the PvP pieces, and some of the purple crafting pieces, and still only pulls in about 1.3k on a single target.  The DK's tanking, but his tanking gear (since it's Naxx stuff) has more DPS than his DPS gear, and even then only pulls a little over 1k dps.

Heh, I was pulling 1700 dps before I set foot in Naxx on my DK. I think you're making some false assumptions or just gearing him badly.  Only epics were a Mirror of Truth, goggles, and Titansteel Destroyer. 

I can see myself pulling terrible DPS when I first bring my warlock into heroics.  So many goddamn dot timers to manage.

edit: This was pre-DK tree adjustments/nerfs.  Numbers may be slightly inflated.

[Rasix]

Also, enchanting and gemming gear kinda doesn't seem worth the expense if the gear is really crappy.

Don't bother gemming/enchanting greens or lower level blues.  Once you're in gear around ilvl 187 it's worth gemming and enchanting as well as you can afford.

[Fordel]

Meh, just use the cheapo green gems. There like a gold each at worst.


As a DK, you should be abusing the crap out of your many AE's to inflate your DPS numbers. 

[K9]

Meh, just use the cheapo green gems. There like a gold each at worst.

I'd do this. The green gems sell for a pittance now, but add a disproportionate amount to levelling gear.

[Merusk]

We had a PUG DK join our Naxx10 group one night and his DPS was like 400.  Ended up kicking him out after a few fights where he complained about how hard it was to do good damage.

I would love to know exactly how some people manage that kind of shit at 80.   My alt ret paladin is 75 right now.  I was managing to pull about 1600 dps in violet hold and Drak'theron.   I mean, unless you have completely skipped +hit as a stat on all of your gear, most mele classes can practically maintain more then 400 dps simply auto attacking shit.

A DK should be able to maintain 800 + dps easy just spamming nothing but X strike (for whatever spec he is) whenever his runes refresh and Deathcoil whenever he has enough runic power.

I've known DKs who don't pick-up X-strike for whatever spec they're in, or if they have it they don't use it.  It's baffling.

[Nevermore]

Spec has a lot to do with it, too.  Unholy spec for example is a lot less gear dependent than Blood so will put up better numbers with crappy gear.  Blood relies almost completely on physical strikes so it needs better gear to put up good DPS.  Frost falls between the two.  I bet the people putting up good DPS in blues are Unholy.

[Kail]

Heh, I was pulling 1700 dps before I set foot in Naxx on my DK. I think you're making some false assumptions or just gearing him badly.  Only epics were a Mirror of Truth, goggles, and Titansteel Destroyer. 

Well, that's annoying.  Anyone know of any sites that might have a reasonable level of detail for this kind of thing?  Most of the ones I know of are either devoted to specific tasks (e.g. tanking, how to beat specific bosses, that kind of thing, not so much "how to not suck at DPS in general") or way out of date.

[Malakili]

Heh, I was pulling 1700 dps before I set foot in Naxx on my DK. I think you're making some false assumptions or just gearing him badly.  Only epics were a Mirror of Truth, goggles, and Titansteel Destroyer. 

Well, that's annoying.  Anyone know of any sites that might have a reasonable level of detail for this kind of thing?  Most of the ones I know of are either devoted to specific tasks (e.g. tanking, how to beat specific bosses, that kind of thing, not so much "how to not suck at DPS in general") or way out of date.

I always go to www.elitistjerks.com for my "Serious business" wow discussion. 

[Sheepherder]

Well, that's annoying.  Anyone know of any sites that might have a reasonable level of detail for this kind of thing?  Most of the ones I know of are either devoted to specific tasks (e.g. tanking, how to beat specific bosses, that kind of thing, not so much "how to not suck at DPS in general") or way out of date.

Also, keep in mind that Arcane mages burn like a motherfucker if they're not worried about mana.  I've been in situations where I've been 40% of the DPS in a ~1.5 minute boss fight yet been completely OOM as the boss drops.  Some people get panicky when they think they might run out of mana eventually and try to conserve it even though they have four stacks of mage water and will get through the fight easily.  Others don't burn cooldowns because they figure they might need them, so they save them for only when they absolutely need them, therefore they never use them.

There are exactly three stats worth gunning for as plate melee.  Hit, Expertise, and Strength.  You need at least 9% hit, and 26 expertise for any physical attack dependent spec (Unholy and Frost scale a bit more poorly with expertise).  Every other DPS stat is mediocre in comparison, and only should be taken over strength if the difference is massive.  A single point of DPS on your weapon is worth 7 strength assuming the speeds of the two weapons being compared are the same, if not then slower is better.  You almost always stand behind the boss, you generally should use your highest damage moves first, and you should strive to have your Global Cooldown always counting down.

Give us armory links, we should be able to tell you what's wrong with that info.  No, I'm not going to freak out if they're not in blue gems and fully enchanted, I meet neither requirement.

[Rasix]

Pretty sure the 9% melee hit cap was proven wrong on EJ.  It's 8%.

Unholy is your best bet if your gear isn't that great or you just honestly want an easier rotation.  Frost and blood were way too spammy for my tastes. Frost was just too damn much information to parse in the heat of things.  12/0/59 was a good non-top of the line gear heading into 3.1 as 0/10/61 supposedly did better with higher gear (no threat reduction if you skip blood though). 

Unholy EJ thread.

Has builds, rotation, and stat weights.  Still, hit cap first.  Then I usually pile on the STR as it's weighted much better than exp rating.

Disclaimer: I don't play a DK as a main anymore and haven't been on top of the EJ shit since Ulduar. Still, concepts haven't changed much for the entry level DK.

[Sheepherder]

Pretty sure the 9% melee hit cap was proven wrong on EJ.  It's 8%.

I herded melee DPS in the right direction for all of TBC.  It's habit now.

[Kail]

Give us armory links, we should be able to tell you what's wrong with that info.  No, I'm not going to freak out if they're not in blue gems and fully enchanted, I meet neither requirement.

Yeh, not even close.  Still running around with a few pieces of 74 gear (gemmed really weirdly, because I'm completely lost as to how much str/hit/parry I should be stacking as a tank).  But if there's fresh eighties doing like 50% more DPS than me, that suggests to me that the problem is more than just a few "replace this later" rings or whatever.  Thanks for the links, I'll have to check those out; I'm probably missing some key talent or not spamming the right attack or something.

[Rasix]

Want to log out in your DPS gear?  Because if that what you're going with specifically for DPS you're completely missing what Blizzard values most for performance: gear and spec.  All you're bringing to the table is the ability to hit buttons and not stand in shit 

[Nevermore]

Give us armory links, we should be able to tell you what's wrong with that info.  No, I'm not going to freak out if they're not in blue gems and fully enchanted, I meet neither requirement.

Yeh, not even close.  Still running around with a few pieces of 74 gear (gemmed really weirdly, because I'm completely lost as to how much str/hit/parry I should be stacking as a tank).  But if there's fresh eighties doing like 50% more DPS than me, that suggests to me that the problem is more than just a few "replace this later" rings or whatever.  Thanks for the links, I'll have to check those out; I'm probably missing some key talent or not spamming the right attack or something.

You're DPS is low because you have a tank spec.  No Killing Machine cuts down on the crits and no Chill of the Grave means less runic power which means less frost strikes.  Those are the first things that jumped out to me.

[Ingmar]

because I'm completely lost as to how much str/hit/parry I should be stacking as a tank).

Rule #1 of tanking gems: never ever ever ever gem for parry. Gem for dodge if you're going to gem an avoidance stat. The diminishing returns on parry are much steeper and even without DR parry returns less per point of rating. Even if your dodge rating is 300 ahead of your parry rating, dodge gems will be better.

Rule #2 of tanking gems: once you've hit the defense cap, gem for stamina unless you've got a meta bonus you need reds for or a good socket bonus. There are people who say its a new world! Only noobs stack stamina now! Those people are wrong.

Threat stats will mostly come on their own from wearing good gear anyway. I'm sitting at 39 expertise with no gems spent on it, and one old enchant that I need to replace.

[Kail]

Want to log out in your DPS gear?

Hah, done.  It's really horrible, though (and half leftovers from my tanking set), has worse +hit and +str than my tanking set.  So, if I'm supposed to be coming off the bus doing 1300, and can't pull that much even with a few Naxx pieces (tanking gear though it be), that suggests to me that (partly, at least) the problem is the monkey at the keyboard.

I really enjoy tanking more than DPS, so if 1k is golden DPS for a tank in half Naxx gear, I'll be fine with that, but I suspect this is not the case.

[Sjofn]

My dps varies pretty wildly as a tank, some fights I'm doing 1500, some fights I break 2000. It's not really something that my guild pays much attention to, though.

[Fordel]

My dps varies pretty wildly as a tank, some fights I'm doing 1500, some fights I break 2000. It's not really something that my guild pays much attention to, though.

It's only note worthy when an actual DPS'er can't beat our tanks.

[Sheepherder]

Download and run the addon called RatingBuster, it makes gear decisions a lot easier.  Also, your specs are both pretty funky IMO, though I gave up on my DK early into the expansion.

[Phred]

Download and run the addon called RatingBuster, it makes gear decisions a lot easier.  Also, your specs are both pretty funky IMO, though I gave up on my DK early into the expansion.

Rating buster is nice but needs some tuning if you play an enh shaman, unless you believe spelldmg is all that matters to an enh shaman. Fortunately the interface makes it quite easy to tune.

[Ingmar]

I thought ratingsbuster was the one that just told you how much actual % you get from various ratings? Not the one that does the EP calculations or whatever.

[Rendakor]

It is, but for Shaman by default it only tells you caster stats. You have to go into the interface and turn on things like attack power.

[Sheepherder]

I thought ratingsbuster was the one that just told you how much actual % you get from various ratings? Not the one that does the EP calculations or whatever.

I prefer the raw numbers.

[apocrypha]

I'm sure most of you all are aware of this but I've just discovered Rawr. Very handy little tool for planning gear upgrades. It says it covers "Bears, Cats, Moonkin, Healadins, Retadins, Mages, ProtWarriors, Trees, Hunters, Tankadins, HealingPriests, ShadowPriests, EnhShams, and DPS & Tank Death Knights".

Takes some tweaking of options and filters to suit your own purposes and it's item database isn't 100% up to date, for instance a lot of the Argent Tournament gear is still listed as "Other" source, but apart from that it's awesome.