Dungeon Blather

[WindupAtheist]

So one of my friends got rid of her old account due to some interpersonal drama and had to start a new one, on top of which she's developed some health problems and is stuck in a country where she hardly speaks the language. Net result, I'm doing my best to powerlevel her and spend a lot of my WoW time lately just ripping through instances with her. It's faster than questing, more fun, and more profitable.

I never got much past 50 in the old vanilla days, and now that she's hit the high forties we're doing a lot of the bigger instances that I have no real experience with. Stuff that nobody bothers to LFG for anymore, like LBRS and Scholo, but which nevertheless give a hell of a lot of XP to someone who's being zoomed through by a level 80 pally in (welfare) epics.

I have to say these are, on the whole, much better dungeons than the ones I've done in Outland and Northrend. We did LBRS tonight without bothering to look at any sort of guide, and it was the first time in a long time that I got a sort of "dungeon crawl" vibe from anything in the game. Sure, part of it is that it's largely new to me, and that being high level it's all sort of a Diablo-esque killfest for me, which is nice.

(SM Cathedral is a rather boring little instance, unless you do the whole thing in 5 minutes by killing every last mob in a single giant ridiculous AOE-fest. God I love being a paladin.)

Anyway, that aside, I like the fact that these mostly-abandoned "fuck LFG I'll just go to Outland" instances are so large, with more than one way to go, and the chance to go off the tracks by jumping off a bridge or something. It gives them much more of the aforementioned dungeon crawl feel, as opposed to being just a big hallway strewn with a chain of trash -> boss -> trash -> boss. Blood Furnace, I'm looking at you.

I don't really have a point here except to complain that I'd like more of that feel, and ask what Northrend instances I might have missed that have some of it. I don't PVE enough to know that there aren't some out there. Maybe they decided those old instances took too long to complete, like Blackrock Depths which is just fucking absurd even if you like that sort of thing, but a dungeon doesn't have to be a six-hour slog just to give you a feeling of choice as to how to attack it.

/ramble

[Ingmar]

The main problem was they took for-freaking-ever to run. BRD at level 60 could easily take 3-4 hours even without a wipe. There were a couple quicker runs (dead side Scholo could be done in under an hour) but most of those old world dungeons are really really looooooooooooooong. And heavy on trash besides. Sometimes there are pacing issues, too, like Scholomance - here's an hour of trash, then almost all the bosses crammed in at the end.

[Phred]

The main problem was they took for-freaking-ever to run. BRD at level 60 could easily take 3-4 hours even without a wipe. There were a couple quicker runs (dead side Scholo could be done in under an hour) but most of those old world dungeons are really really looooooooooooooong. And heavy on trash besides. Sometimes there are pacing issues, too, like Scholomance - here's an hour of trash, then almost all the bosses crammed in at the end.

The only instances I can think of that hearken back to older ones might be nexus, and maybe Gundrak a bit. With Gundrak you have 2 entrances so right there you get a bit of a choice what to do first. The nexus I must have gone through a few times before the "right" way became obvious.

[K9]

I'll agree that none of the WoTLK or TBC instances share the sprawling and epic feel of instances like Stratholme; but then back in the day many of these places were too big and were painfully slow to clear. Strat was actually one of the better ones, BRD and Mara I didn't see the end of until I was 80.

[WindupAtheist]

They could do instances on the same scale and have them go by a lot quicker if they just cut down on all the god damned trash. I mean there's just no reason that a room full of 50 zombies couldn't be a room full of 25 zombies. Although for my current purposes all the trash is great for XP farming.

[kildorn]

They could do instances on the same scale and have them go by a lot quicker if they just cut down on all the god damned trash. I mean there's just no reason that a room full of 50 zombies couldn't be a room full of 25 zombies. Although for my current purposes all the trash is great for XP farming.

Someone doesn't remember vanilla Scholo. <3

Fucking trash fest of doom, with a payout of six minibosses with a 5% chance to drop a green set item. Fucking place.

The newer instance designs just feel like new construction. Even the nerubian places just LOOK like they're built in the last 10 years, while Scholo and the like feel like invading hostile ancient locations and uncovering shit. BRD was some bullshit however. Fucking torch room pre nerfs with your only AE being a holy paladin's lame consecrate <3

[Fordel]

The dungeon crawl is fine, once, maybe twice.


The 7th, 12th, 32nd time, because someones set piece hasn't dropped, ever? Yea, fuck the dungeon crawl.




If blizzard wanted to be REALLY awesome, they would somehow create a system of randomized generated crawling dungeons, that only took an hour AND weren't just CoH warehouse full of mobsters revision 5.61. Keep dreaming though.

[Musashi]

I hate them all passionately.  Getting forty assholes geared for MC back in the day meant a lot of Strat/Scholo/UBRS runs.  Fuck the mother fucker who thought that trash was a good idea.  Fuck him in the face.  He knows who he is, too.

[Fordel]

Who is that badass looking samurai man in your avatar and why does he want me dead?

[Musashi]

That's Yamamoto Kansuke.  He wants you dead because you fucked with Kai.

[Draegan]

I still think BRD is the best instance in the game.

[kildorn]

I still think BRD is the best instance in the game.

Why do you hate freedom?

[LK]

There's too much influence in EQ and others on the old world dungeon design. Things have gotten a lot better but there's still some painful grinds.

[Rendakor]

Fuck the old forever-long dungeons right in their ear. I liked how TBC split those old dungeons into seperate instance wings. Want a quick run? Just do Hellfire Ramparts. Want it longer? Do Blood Furnace right after.

Northrend has kind of a mix, some are quick (AN, UK) or simple (VH), while others are longer (Nexus, Gun). Once you're 80 and running them as heroic, there are a couple paired close together and similar in theme, so you can run them back to back for a longer experience (UK/UP, AN/OK, DTK/Gun).

I don't really have a problem with the 'few packs of trash - boss - repeat' system they've got going on. I find the old world dungeons were great to run ONCE while the Northrend ones are far less annoying to FARM. And since Blizz's design theory is 'repeatable content' we get smaller, faster zones. In order to really justify making a long, trash filled BRD style dungeon viable now, they'd have to put a couple quests there for endgame gear, or give the bosses hardmodes for gear (not just achievements) or something. In otherwords, treat the zone like a raid zone except requiring only 5 people. Casuals have asked for this numerous times over the years, they've gotten 10 mans. Not sure they're going to lower that bar any time soon.

[Selby]

I liked the old dungeons for the experience with a good group learning it all the way through and finishing it.  What I didn't like was how quests would start and end randomly in the middle of the dungeon so if you wanted to get all of the quests done, you had to run the dungeon multiple times or get everyone in the group to wait for you while you went to the other continent to turn a quest in to Thrall, get it's follow-up and then come back to the dungeon.  Not to mention "I need my T0.5 helm and need to run Scholo again!" that turned into everyone hating life for having to run the trash-fest that it was with poor loot chances.

[Arinon]

The main issue I have with dungeons as the are crafted now is how homogenized the experience is.  It's on rails and my run is identical to the last time I ran it and also the same as the next guys run.  There is almost no room for experimentation or optimization.  Seem like about three expansions from now it will just be a slot machine that requires five characters to activate.  Then you move to the next one and do it again.

[Ashamanchill]

I still think BRD is the best instance in the game.

I had the best and worst times in wow in BRD.  When I cleared it the first times with my friends and we vowed to do it without a guide, it was a fucking blast.  Grinding out shit for Molten Core would be the worst.  However, I would still nominate it for one of the best put together/cool feel dungeons, losing only to Shadow Fang Keep in my mind.

[Hawkbit]

Fuck the old forever-long dungeons right in their ear. I liked how TBC split those old dungeons into seperate instance wings. Want a quick run? Just do Hellfire Ramparts. Want it longer? Do Blood Furnace right after.

While Mauradon was a terribly long dungeon, I always liked the stop point in it.  PUGs would usually drop out after the first half, but my guild groups would always push forward to princess.  It gave it more of an epic feel. 

I'd like to see a raid-style 5man dungeon with the size of LBRS but with 3-4 exit points after a few bosses each.  Instead of "wings" per se, each segment would be 45-60min but would ramp up in difficulty. 

[Musashi]

It's worth noting that all the dungeons in question (UBRS/Strat/Scholo) were originally 'raid-able' and all allowed more than five people.  I  remember some of the original server lulz were over screenshots of people zoning into them with ten or fifteen people.  Of course they were slightly tuned higher then.  And they were nerfed in one of the first patches. 

So it's never really been clear to me what the intention was with those dungeons with respect to their place in difficulty.  Maybe it wasn't very clear to them either.  But if they were meant to be raids, then the trash is at least explainable. 

Still, fuck trash, and fuck people who like trash.  Right in the ear.

[WindupAtheist]

You could make an interesting and less-linear dungeon with no higher trash-count than one of the recent monster-hallways, easily. But then you probably wouldn't have to kill every single last piece of trash every single time just to get to the final boss and farm him for whatever, and I don't think Blizzard wants that.

[Ingmar]

Still, fuck trash, and fuck people who like trash.  Right in the ear.

The trash in Ulduar is fun.

[Arinon]

If they made zones completely trash-free then people would start calling all the bosses on the way to the REAL boss trash.

[Musashi]

So?

[Arinon]

Then you'd be bitching that those bosses need to be removed and we're left with 20ish Vault of Archavon style zones.  Which would be fun for oooooooh a week or so.

[Musashi]

Yea, I was gonna be snarky.  But instead, I'll go with you're prolly right.  Some people will say that.  But it's completely beside the fact that trash is still dumb.  Aaaaand, I don't really think it would be as you say for people who are not retarded.

The thing is you may enjoy dungeon crawls.  But it works both ways.  Why the fuck does EVERYTHING have to be a god damn dungeon crawl.  It sucks.  If it were only one or two, okay.  But jebus.  Every single instance I've been in since EQ LDoN has had bullshit mobs designed to 'pace' me.  Fuck that.  Even caves have trash.  It's enough.  And I think they're finally start to sort of get away from it, even if only a little.  About time if you ask me.

[Fordel]

The whole 'divergent paths' thing is also mostly a load of shit in the end too, since the player base will find the most efficient path after everyone has run through the place a couple of times.


Steam Vaults being a good example of that. You can theoretically, tackle the place a variety of ways, different routes and all that jazz. After you do it a few times though, the novelty and mystery are gone and the only fun to be had, is finishing the place in record time and not getting your tank cloak, again. 

[Rendakor]

Nexus has the whole divergent paths thing going too, kind of. But if you don't go the most efficient way, the group just yells/calls you retarded.

[Sjofn]

Still, fuck trash, and fuck people who like trash.  Right in the ear.

The trash in Ulduar is fun.

Well, to be fair, who knows how long the Ulduar trash will still feel fun. There IS an amusing level of OH JESUS WHAT IS THIS TRASH DOING NOW HALP though. <3

[Fabricated]

If you like the horror things with the eleventy billion HP you can simulate the feeling by slamming your dick in a sliding screen door.

[Tale]

So one of my friends got rid of her old account due to some interpersonal drama and had to start a new one, on top of which she's developed some health problems and is stuck in a country where she hardly speaks the language. Net result, I'm doing my best to powerlevel her and spend a lot of my WoW time lately just ripping through instances with her.

Will you forgive him again when he sells this account?   

[Khaldun]

I always liked LBRS, actually. But Scholo and Strat at 60 were a fucking punch in the nuts, for sure.

If you want a bit of the openness and you've got a couple of 80s to help out a 70ish character, Karazhan certainly had some of that old-world dungeon crawly feel to it. Kara might be the best job they've done in the game at balancing trash, bosses, some dramatic pauses and changes of tempo, and a few choices about where to go next.

ZG might also qualify.

[Rasix]

Kara might be the best job they've done in the game at balancing trash, bosses, some dramatic pauses and changes of tempo, and a few choices about where to go next.

Outside of the volume of trash in certain areas, I'd agree.

I really liked doing Kara and never got tired of it provided I wasn't escorting a bunch of bads that would inevitably move during flame wreath or cross beams.

[Soulflame]

I thought ZA was a better raid than Kara.

[K9]

ZA didn't have too much trash really, although as a whole instance I liked Kara more.

Something I'm liking a lot about Ulduar, and something that I think should be used more, is the layout of the bosses in the sense that many are "optional". The only mandatory bosses are Flame Leviathan, XT-002, Kologarn and Auriaya (not sure as I haven't been past here). Alng the way with the first 3 mandatory bosses are several optional bosses. I think this form of highly-branched dungeon design is a good thing, and means you can add bosses of varying difficulty without having too many cock-blocks so long as you ensure the mandatory or gatekeeper bosses are some of the easier ones in the instance.

[Fabricated]

Kara is about the best paced dungeon they've released outside of ZA. ZA is fun overall but the trash is boring or irritating. Most of the trash in Kara was pretty fun (AoE pulls in ballroom, mana fiends+wyrms, curator wannabes) or at least properly challenging without being a royal pain in the ass. Naxx trash is -completely- forgettable in every single way. Gather up, AoE, done. For -everything-.

Hell, Nightbane and Netherspite are more complicated fights than most everything in Naxx AND Ulduar. Could you imagine if Kara was retuned for 80 and re-released now? Even if it was tuned for players in level 80 blues I think we'd hear screams for nerfs on Nightbane/Netherspite/Aran.