Parabellum - MMOFPS

[Sky]

I remember a lot of "but Quake is FREEEE" stuff going on. I don't think you want the average fps gamer. They're shitty for monetization, they want one box and free mods out the ying, and they will hack the fuck out of your game. You want old farts like me. I'm your perfect demographic. Ask EQ2, who I happily give money to every month, without the slightest clue about what all the latest drama over class imbalance or shitty itemization is, because I'm not some powergaming raidtard (with apologies to the f13 raidtards :)).

$15/mo? Not sure. Tough part is making the judgement only based on what SOE did, which for the first few years, wasn't a whole lot. Station Access, though, was great. It definitely fit in there amazingly, play EQ2 for the mmo fix, jump into PS for the action fix. If they had a better lineup....I mean right now SOE's stable is pretty scary looking. Maybe if the Agency doesn't suck, but even then, why not just get two subs? You need at least 3 titles to make it worthwhile to pony up $30/mo imo...rambling...

[DLRiley]

75,000 peak was planet side. Obviously planet side was doing something horrible wrong if it couldn't keep even 75k.

[Azuredream]

Damn its like I entered the WAR official forums and said DAOC was craptasicilar. 

75,000 peak was planet side. Obviously planet side was doing something horrible wrong if it couldn't keep even 75k.

I see what you did there.

Oh what am I doing replying to this..

[eldaec]

But yeah, hundreds of people all shooting each other up with projectiles and shit just hasn't been done.

I think you clarified this later, but this is actually Sky's point (and should have been mine). Outside of some occasionally-functioning SB battles, nobody except Planetside has supported 100v100v100 battles. Nobody. Everyone else either wimps out because they think their players will cry, because they'd rather have better screenshots on pack, or don't want to invest in risky technology for a still-unproven model.

EVE does the battles every day, just not with projectile tracking, which is obv a big deal for FPS games.

[patience]

Well Darkfall does this as well and it is a full on FPS mechanic game.

[Surlyboi]

Heh... Darkfall...

[eldaec]

Well Darkfall does this as well and it is a full on FPS mechanic game.

This one can stay imo.

[UnSub]

I do not care about this 'business'. I'm a gamer.

Bill Roper, is that you?

Slightly more seriously, MMOFPSs haven't done well. PlanetSide was an interesting experiment that didn't last. WWIIO might be playable now, but it wasn't at launch and it is definitely a niche title. Haven't heard anything recently about Welken (or whatever that is called). A number of MMORPGs are moving into the action area already which is impinging on the FPS space to some degree. MMOFPS is a niche that is also competing against the highly competitive FPS games market. There's a reason why it is such a niche sector and why MMOFPSs (especially with mass RvR) are in short supply.

[Venkman]

MMOFPS is niche in part because it has not been defined by there being a singular success that everyone emulates (ala EQ1 defining the success model for the MMORPG side of things).

Ultimately, the whole MMO* is still not defined. Which is the reason why anyone with an MTX model can come alone and call their game "massively multiplayer online <whatever>". I'd rather see a new game, one that's more technical in description (just as "FPS", "RTS" and "RPG" are technical in description). Persistent online game (POG) could work but might be too catchall.

But what I want is irrelevant. The term will be defined by the categorization of the next big title is that isn't a fantasy themed fullscreen retail MMORPG.

[Grimwell]

Fun question time since we are on a huge tangent anyway:

If Planetside was close, what would you do different to have hit hit the mark?

Play producer and tell me what the missing link is.

[tazelbain]

On the broadest level, players have no control over their destinies.  No way for Empire building.  And the IP is very bland like Starcraft with only Terrans.  Needs to be more non-combat roles for scrubs like me to contribute.

[Sky]

If Planetside was close, what would you do different to have hit hit the mark?

Tough one, because PS pretty much hit it right imo. I think it's problems were more due to the fps audience (too slow for bunnytards, too expensive for folks who expect free mods, etc) and the mmo audience (not enough 'depth', not 'meaningful'). Which would also be the reasons I liked it. Apparently people don't think 100v100v100 battles with mechs and planes and tanks and stealthy hackers etc etc is a good game. Because people are horribly broken.

Planetside is still running, I think the biggest problem was lack of initial support. I think if stuff like BFRs and new vehicle types, new CE gear, etc, had come out in the first couple years, the following would've been a bit stronger. Maybe a better badge system, people love their little pellets of achievement (because they're horribly broken and fun isn't enough, or even really much of a reason at all, apparently).

Not sure how you could design around some of the more core issues that I didn't necessarily have a problem with, but seemed endemic to most: lack of "reason" to defend, hunting xp, etc.

One thing is sure: No Caves expansion. That was awful. Keep the dev team small and manage expenses going in, I would run it skunkworks UO style so you could keep it niche and still make a nice dribble of profit. It's not like mmofps could ever be in the WoW profit arena. Maybe possibly with the Halo franchise and pc/360 crossover, maybe.

Most of the things that would broaden the appeal for mmo or fps fans would make the game less fun.

[HaemishM]

My biggest problem with PS was the gameplay. It felt sluggish to me. I have no problem with SLOW per se, but the controls didn't seem that responsive. Put its gameplay next to say a BF2, TF2 or BF2142 and it pales in comparison - yet I would have to pay $15 a month to play it whereas the others have free multiplayer. Whether or not the others SHOULD have free multiplayer is irrelevant, because the market has dictacted that they should. If you're going to charge me more for the same type of gameplay, its gameplay should be superior and it wasn't. The 100x100x100 battles were very cool but as an individual, it wasn't enough to get me to pay for it. Adding an xp curve on top of it gave it some stickiness, but again, not enough for a subscription. I think that due to the history of FPS games being littered with free multiplayer, the only way an MMOFPS will work is as a free game with micropayment extras.

[Sutro]

Mmm, lots of things did it in for Planetside. That said, it was a game I slathered after on its release, bought a new comp for, and was pleased with the results.

A lack of 'persistency' was really the biggest issue, I think. After a couple of months of running about and swapping bases, people just got bored with it.

There's other things, though. Surgile jackhammers, while not in game outside of six months, probably caused a lot of ragequits. The overall imbalance of power in favor of NC for the first few months of the game was pretty problematic. The constant balance changes also threw a lot of people off; you get ragequitters every time you do balance sweeps and the evangel population of PS was never large enough to recoup them.

The Caves were a terrible idea, and was the first expansion in MMO history to actually cause subscriptions to dip if you go by Chart(tm) Methodology. The amount of terrain in the game was NEVER an issue. Adding more terrain to a game that was already so reliant on critical masses of people was perhaps the worst idea in MMO history, ever. Seriously.

I mean, there was so much more at the time that the playerbase was asking for. Noone was asking for artillery or little swoopy pod things... they wanted the AC-10 Galaxy for YEARS until they just got it a few months ago. They wanted guild/clan persistency, and that's still never happened. They wanted, for God's sake, more than three base designs. I'm not sure where that stands.

There's so much more that could have been done with an expansion. Make each facility a very unique one, for one. Put in environmental effects and give each continent its own character, for another. Clan vs. clan tournaments for a third, with special skins/weapons for rewards. Less goofy looking new vehicles. Redesigned air combat without the lift restrictions. A sub-orbital platform (just ONE) that controlled various things on the ground, like the availability of OS strikes. Headshots. Hitboxes for vehicles.

If they hadn't been trapped into the mindset that expansion HAS to equal new terrain...

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I just really think Planetside was a golden goose that croaked too early.

[Lantyssa]

I'm not sure it was ever the right game for me for more than a month or two, but my biggest problem was paying over $5 a month.  It certainly didn't provide a great enough experience to warrent $15.

While some games can balance the population with what they charge, people are your content in Planet Side.  More people means more targets, so it is important to price accordingly.  Fewer people means less fun which means people leave in an ever game-shrinking cycle.

[DayDream]

I think Planetside really needed some sort of individuality and identity aspect.  Some way for the average player to make themselves distinct, and some way for them to form and join a permanent group identity.  Like, guild tabards or color schemes and the like.  Visual distinction for individual players a la CoX.  Whenever I tried Planetside it was nearly impossible to do anything other that fade into the zerg.  Some sort of avenue to leave that would have been good.

Getting group impact on the world, such as "battlement construction" with giant legos or something, would have been pure gravy.  Some sort of way to invest energy and have permanence until it got destroyed.

The problem with all of that is technical resources.  Probably on both sides, client and server.  There's a certain amount you can do to limit use with CoX style armor pieces, tinting and mixing armor schemes, but if you've got enough variation, you're gunna have a lot of resource use there no matter what you do.  Basebuilding would be its own nightmare, one I'm ignorant of.


So, as a producer, what single change would I have made to Planetside?  I'd bump up the system requirements.  I would NOT increase the polygons of the models, if I could at all help it, but instead implement some of these ideas.

I'm not arguing that the WoW concept of low sys-reqs is irrelevant for MMOFPS.  I think low-fi visuals with great style is the way to go.  I AM arguing that you have to be careful how far your low sys-reqs extend.  When they chop your gameplay into bits, I think some evaluation is in order.  So I'd try and balance my high gameworld requirements with a low polygon style, hoping that the stylization carries the presentation.

[Venkman]

If Planetside was close, what would you do different to have hit hit the mark?

Play producer and tell me what the missing link is.

PS had an identity crisis. A twitchy RPG that didn't feel right because it lacked the personal permanance of the character optimization side of MMOs and the actual FPS feel of FPS games. And the business model was decidedly for the crowd looking to optimize unique characters, not play generic proto-Halo.

If it was launching today, it'd have been the perfect MTX game for appearance and buff stuff. Back then it would have been too ahead of its time. I feel like Battlefield Heroes is the spiritual successor.

If the game felt a bit more intuitive, and didn't have such a high fee, it might not have alienated FPS players so much. Yes, missile shots from a Reaver should have decimated a foot soldier. Take that and apply it to most of the game at launch and SOE ended up launching a twitchy RPG that didn't "feel" right. Years later, TR would try again and got it a bit closer. But that wasn't trying to be an FPS game for that audience.

Other than that, it's still a risky pursuit. At this point I think an MMOFPS is going to come from the FPS side of things, taking and expanding on the COD4 formula. Rather than ask how to get RPG gamers to want a different combat system, the smarter question to ask is what are FPS gamers looking for in terms of persistence, and what would they be willing to pay for.

[UnSub]

Fun question time since we are on a huge tangent anyway:

If Planetside was close, what would you do different to have hit hit the mark?

Play producer and tell me what the missing link is.

Isn't this what we do everyday? Tell devs how they went wrong? 

As someone who lives outside the US, PlanetSide was never an option due to lag. You can't play on FPS servers past a certain point with a ping of 300 - 400. So: lag issues reduce your population potential to only the US market OR you need to have mechanics in place to adjust for lag which makes the game feel slow to the local FPS players OR have servers everywhere that will just end up fragmenting your player base (which is death for a PvP game).

The second major issue is a lack of world progression in the game. You take a base, the enemy comes to take it back that night when you are asleep. You win a major battle. Nothing changes in the game world. It's a a difficult design issue that makes or breaks a game - do you have a never-ending war where nothing changes (and thereby having players quit due to boredom / pointlessness) or do you allow for a side to 'win' (thereby opening the door to players quitting because they've won / lost the game)?

Third issue is major competition from established FPS specialists that offer multiplayer games for free. Darniaq is right - what are FPS players willing to pay for that they can't currently get for free from other FPS titles? Exteel offers MTX to buy weapons, but you can also earn similar weapons through play.

[Nebu]

Give me WWIIOL with BF1942 gameplay.  Ranks, large battles, historical areas, and more game/less sim.  Tack on personalization and badges/medals/titles/skills and I'm handing over my cash.  I agree with Haem and Lantyssa about PS.  Fun game, but lacked any stick to take my money.  I could play BF1942 and several mods free. 

[apocrypha]

Planetside was simply too expensive. If it had been $2/month then I would probably still be playing it.

[Furiously]

For me it was the base you just fought 5 hours over will get flipped at 3am by a group of 3 people because no one was on from your side. Make it require like 20+ people to swap a base or something stupid. I loved sniping in PS. I think it was one of the first FPS's to "do it right".

[Mrbloodworth]

Fun question time since we are on a huge tangent anyway:

If Planetside was close, what would you do different to have hit hit the mark?

Play producer and tell me what the missing link is.

New maps, Variation in base layouts, More urban environments, A supply logistics system ALA WW2 Online. Essentially, things that add variation to game play, Planetisdes major downside is there are always 2 engagement areas, Bases and towers, and those two areas have little variation in game play regardless of the fact most bases have varying layouts. Also, Compatibility with windows vista, and over all performance on modern hardware are also key. Anti cheat measures, through whatever means, are also needed, but part of that is people have had almost 5+ years to figure them out.



As for customization as people above have asked for, Conscription needs to be kept, Planetside was doing right with ranks at a glance and high level things like berets, taking your helm off, backpack and shades, and the merit system, however the military structure must be kept. A more robust command system is also needed, as 40 CR5 shouting over global was always stupid, i realize that having a voting system or a command structure was always shot down as "It will be a popularity contest", but, it always has been, the most popular CR5 was that one that people listened to.





The rest, i would not change.

For more reading of over 4 years of suggestions made by the player base, and distilled into full blown, feasible and thought out ideas, read here.

Examples:







This also brings me to, LISTEN TO YOUR FUCKING PLAYER BASE. Also, UNBEND.

[SnakeCharmer]

This also brings me to, LISTEN TO YOUR FUCKING PLAYER BASE. Also, UNBEND.

Dude.  It's SOE a MMG studio.

[Mrbloodworth]

This also brings me to, LISTEN TO YOUR FUCKING PLAYER BASE. Also, UNBEND.

Dude.  It's SOE a MMG studio.

My point was, that website is a collection of PLAYER ideas, that SOE/The developers intentionally ignored, there have only ever been two items that were added to the game from that site. As one of the most volatile player bases, having them come together under idea labs and put together such presentations, was a miracle endeavor, and fueled by the love of the game. There was/is at least 5 more years of content/expansions on that site alone. But the developers thought they knew better, so we got caves, and are now getting instances/arenas. WTF?

Planetsides LARGEST attraction was that it inspired people endlessly for years, until the last person simply stopped caring, because SOE did.

So, to answer his question, its already and has been answered for years now. Take those ideas, put your real developer knowledge on it, and profit.

[SnakeCharmer]

And this surprises you....why?

Dude.  It's SOE a MMG studio.

[Mrbloodworth]

And this surprises you....why?

Dude.  It's SOE a MMG studio.

lol. 

[Sky]

Another thing that comes to mind, a lot of time with traditional fps (which I've given up on as hopeless online, so I'm talking bf1942-bf2 and tf2), finding a server is a pain in the ass. Whether it's the administration of the server, the pings, player density or makeup, it's always dicey to find a good game experience. With PS, log in, jump into action and you're pretty much going to have a good gaming experience, that can become great if there's a really dense battle over a good chokepoint going on.

And Mr BW is expanding on what I said, SOE basically didn't do shit for PS for a looong time, and the first significant thing was a shitty expansion. While we can debate fps audience vs mmo audience (while I would favor 'build it and they will come'), you have to do something, and that something shouldn't suck.

[Zzulo]

Planetside failed because, while it had grand battles, it didn't really have anything else. Everything else in the game was pretty much flawed except the big battles, and once people left as a result of all these flaws, the big battles also vanished, ensuring that Planetside could never grow.

I played Planetside from the beta up to about 3 months into launch before I grew tired. The world was dead, uninteresting and unchanging and the gunplay was dull.

I really do wish someone would take the concept of Planetside (How is it even possible that no one has? ) and refine it into something great.

[DLRiley]

I'm just waiting for the day I can dance on planet sides grave, cause Shadowbane with guns is still a bad idea 

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm just waiting for the day I can dance on this game grave, cause Shadowbane with guns is still a bad idea 

Uh, what?

[NiX]

Uh, what?

Someone doesn't like PVP. Apparently after the blood left his penis from Shadowbane closing the leftover blood went to his head and he got the smart idea to post in here.

[DLRiley]

I love pvp. I hate the craptasticular piece of mother hating shit called pvp which has persisted in mmo's for a long time. So I'll dance on any shit faced mmo that closes while claiming to be a pvp game when its only a safe haven for the "i breath through my mouth while I talk" kids who get slaughtered in any real game.

[IainC]

I love pvp. I hate the craptasticular piece of mother hating shit called pvp which has persisted in mmo's for a long time. So I'll dance on any shit faced mmo that closes while claiming to be a pvp game when its only a safe haven for the "i breath through my mouth while I talk" kids who get slaughtered in any real game.

Want to give us an example of a 'real game' so we can see what baseline you're drawing on here?

[SnakeCharmer]

There's not one. 

All the 'real' games exist in his head.

[UnSub]

You're wrong.

It's just that he has a shit fetish. Read his posts. It's all 'this is shit, that is shit, it's like eating a shit sandwich, shit shit shit'.