Parabellum - MMOFPS

[DLRiley]

If your making a pvp mmo and your game isn't as fun as team fortress 2 when it lags like a server located in south east asia (me being located 2 blocks from D.C), than your doing something horribly wrong. Guild Wars was a real game, by well gaming standards and not the pseudo quality mmo are famous for. I mean geez, i don't want to wave the "I played that game you didn't ahahah" flag (considering I don't think anyone of you played less games than I have) but for christ sake, even lagging to fucking hell while some jackass is using the infinite nade hack WarRock has given me more fun per hour then anything with an mmo acronym attached.  Which for all intent and purposes must change if you expect anyone to pay for a new mmo period.

[CharlieMopps]

Fun question time since we are on a huge tangent anyway:

If Planetside was close, what would you do different to have hit hit the mark?

Play producer and tell me what the missing link is.

In the hopes your asking so SOE can make it...

Take Battlefield 2142 style graphics and weaponry.
Stick it on some other planet
Link all the zones together
Add Robots as NPCs
Have battlegrounds ala Warhammer where all the PVP goes on.
Capturing a "Keep" gives you control over certain areas. Allow engineers in those areas to reprogram the robot spawns (players control NPC behavior)
Have a skill system like eve's. You can pilot ever more sophisticated mechs/tanks/aircraft the better your training is.
Of course Mechs can't go everywhere so 1v1 combat should still be very important.

There should be at least 2 military factions.
Also some sort of cyberpunk smuggler faction that could travel in either territory.
Assailable orbital weapons platforms that, when captured can be called to send down bombardments on battlefields bellow.

etc etc etc

I didn't mention planet side anywhere in there... oh well. lol

[DLRiley]

What happens when one side out numbers the other....

[CharlieMopps]

What happens when one side out numbers the other....

Well, A. The sides would be nearly identical. Just different uniforms. Unlike Warhammer where 1 side was a lot more attractive to the average player.

and B. How about a "Command Bandwidth" skill. Whomever is the commander for the battle could allow a certain number of other players into the command structure based on how much bandwidth he had. If there were more players than whatever his cap was, they could still play but would be severely hampered by not having access to the command network. They could use the maps, see where the enemy was, use any of the equipment like mechs and what-not. If 1 team was capped out and the other was only at say 80%, the difference could be made up by assault robots. They of course, would have lame UI... but you could say they take up less bandwidth so there could be more of them. An undefended base would have hordes of robotic gaurds that would go off line as more and more Players joined the battle.

[Lantyssa]

Add Robots as NPCs

PCs, too, please.  They don't need different capabilities, just a neat skin.

[DLRiley]

Never underestimate how stupid players are. People will crowd one side over the other because the uniforms look more badass. Fuck the only reason fps's have even sides is because most of them force you to have even sides. But the rest of your ideas seem pretty solid, but you might want to count on the a large number of people interested in said game not giving a shit about the war'ing side rvr, blah, blah, blah and just want to feel like getting a good head shot in for 20 minutes of play time. Which is was generally missing from planet side.

[CharlieMopps]

Add Robots as NPCs

PCs, too, please.  They don't need different capabilities, just a neat skin.

I would rather see something along the line of EVE's skill system. The higher level some of your skills were the more sophisticated your cybernetic implants could be. When you had earned enough money you could swap out an arm for a stronger robotic version. Eventually, you could go full cyborg. Or, perhaps genetically enhanced replacement would have other advantages. The end result would be some players would be totally mechanical, while others would still look nearly human.

I'd like to see realistic nukes in the game as well. For example, a base may be owned by one faction... protected by a domed force-shield. The other faction would have to fight their way in, disable the shield generator, at which point the nuclear strike would come in and wipe out the entire zone. Not these little fake nukes you see in games... I'd like to see it light up the sky in every zone anywhere near the one attacked with a mushroom cloud that lasted for hours afterward. Then, as the radiation died down both factions could rush in to try and control the zone... once controlled, start rebuilding infrastructure.

[Zzulo]

Eh, my biggest issue with Planetside (putting aside the numerous other issues) was that no matter what anyone did in the world, it did not make an impact at all. On my server we had factions taking over the entire world - and for what? Nothing. The next day it was all usually reset and it all started over again. Endless random skirmishes without meaning, goal or reward. Nothing in the game supported a metagame. Nothing in the game supported player politics or rivalry or faction pride or any of that crap. It was always just purple guys vs red guys vs yellow guys fighting eachother randomly because that was how things were. The world was entirely void of life, the game entirely void of anything else to do other than "shoot gun at guy", and even that portion of the game failed in comparison to other shooters.

Man, the game was so flawed, but I'm still one of its biggest fans. I am very dissapointed to not see any other 'proper'  MMOFPS games coming out at all.

 When are we going to get a nice persistent, not incredibly flawed, living world where we can shoot mans and have fun?

[DLRiley]

I think your over looking the "sounds good on paper but in practice people quite" factor. Anything permanent is inherently flawed, because you really have to understand where the player is coming from when he lost something important (which is generally in the form of advantages to the winner and shit for the loser). Which is the biggest flaw in the concept of pvp needing to have a meaning. But then again its really at its best a poor man attempt to replace to competitive element in actual pvp game like street fighter, and move toward the "internet is serious business" mentality which seems to be the bases of most ffa full loot, losing shit should matter, blah blah blah which is constantly brought up as new ideas in forums.

[Mrbloodworth]

I love pvp. I hate the craptasticular piece of mother hating shit called pvp which has persisted in mmo's for a long time. So I'll dance on any shit faced mmo that closes while claiming to be a pvp game when its only a safe haven for the "i breath through my mouth while I talk" kids who get slaughtered in any real game.

I can't even begin to think of what other MMO your going to compare Planetsides combat too.

Fun question time since we are on a huge tangent anyway:

If Planetside was close, what would you do different to have hit hit the mark?

Play producer and tell me what the missing link is.

Crappiest MMOFPS concept ever.

No.

[shiznitz]

75,000 peak was planet side. Obviously planet side was doing something horrible wrong if it couldn't keep even 75k.

Planetside had a tough "come-back-and-try-us-again" curve. At least for me, if I quit for 6 months, my first month back in PS was spent dying - A LOT. The fun depended on being part of an organized guild. The good guilds usually required training sessions. I found them helpful, but still tedious.  What always impressed me about PS was how well-balanced the equipment was without being cookie-cutter. Skill mattered but organization and practice mattered more.

[Venkman]

I think your over looking the "sounds good on paper but in practice people quite" factor. Anything permanent is inherently flawed, because you really have to understand where the player is coming from when he lost something important (which is generally in the form of advantages to the winner and shit for the loser). Which is the biggest flaw in the concept of pvp needing to have a meaning. But then again its really at its best a poor man attempt to replace to competitive element in actual pvp game like street fighter, and move toward the "internet is serious business" mentality which seems to be the bases of most ffa full loot, losing shit should matter, blah blah blah which is constantly brought up as new ideas in forums.

It's about your audience. There's two sources here:

• FPS gamers: get them to pay for something more by slapping "MMO" on it. Well, not so much, because they're already used to not continually paying for a game mechanic that has been refined ad nauseum. They'll pay for server hosting, but not to the publisher.
• MMO gamers: they already pay for anything with the word "MMO" on it. But they only like certain types of games. Even in a world without WoW, the dominant style of game would be diku. We'd just have a few million less people playing it.

This is a dilemma for businesses. It's a lot easier to get people who are used to paying extra to pay extra in a new game; however, those people have proven themselves resistant to change. And while there's plenty of other genres out there, companies are struggling to monetize them beyond the initial purchase.

But that's ok. They'll get there eventually. You just need an EQ1 for the other types of MMOs you can make. Some of the thinking in this thread could work, but none of it matters until you can find a way to get those players to be willing to pay extra for it. That'll either keep these games from getting developed at all, or only with indie-level budgets for indie-size crowds.

Don't know where the 75k for PS came from. I doubt they came anywhere close to that and I don't recall SOE ever breaking out PS numbers. So I'll guess the source is MMOGcharts.

[DLRiley]

Its really just an estimate that is on wiki to be honest. The problem with the Mmofps is that there isn't a novelty in it like you would have in a Mmorpg. The Mmorpg is by all means inferior in every way that matters compared to an RPG, but ultimately doesn't compete with the single player RPG because RPG's are for the most part single player games. Back when Planet Side was out it has counter strike, quake, and unreal tournament to contend with, and yes FPS gamers DO value gameplay and to be honest if Planet Side offered superior gameplay then it would have been better received, but because it didn't and had no real incentives or even ways for the individual to gets his jollies it crashed and burn struggling to keep mmo gamers interested in a twitch oriented game that didn't have anything to do when your not in a 100 man battle. I hear planet side was before its time but be for real, the fps market got a shit ton better, if planet side was arcane to fps gamers 6 years ago, it would be fucking ancient if it was released now.

I'm going to be honest, the real dollars in a pvp game is competitive pvp, rts, fps, tcg's, fighting games. The only game to prove said theory wrong was DaoC in the first year of release. But by the looks of things, I really don't think that play style is going to translate to big bucks now. The market for "big world, kick your nuts" games is ridiculously small despite the amount of forum love it receives. Its hitting a evolutionary dead end that needs to be look at from the ground up, under the assumption that 99.99% of gamers will ignore said game and your job being to attempt to change that to something like 99.97% at the very least. Yes its attempting to main stream your game, but unless your indie, you NEED to figure out someway not to alienate 99.99% of gamers in some sad attempt to milk cash from the .01% who probably won't be able to pay your light bill. 

[Sky]

that didn't have anything to do when your not in a 100 man battle.

After 100v100v100, I'd say the best part of PS was the 1v1 tower battles between CEs.

[Mrbloodworth]

that didn't have anything to do when your not in a 100 man battle.

After 100v100v100, I'd say the best part of PS was the 1v1 tower battles between CEs.

Yeah, I'm still not sure what he is talking about. I may be a huge fan, but i am trying to compare my experiences in playing it for 4 years, and his assessment. It's just not matching up.

[Falconeer]

I'm going to be honest, the real dollars in a pvp game is competitive pvp, rts, fps, tcg's, fighting games.

I don't get this.

[Nebu]

I think there's a lot of money to be had in a persistent pvp world.  Problem is, it's a tough thing to implement.  You need to corral the exploiters without eliminating all possible venues for creative play.  That's a thin line to walk.  Then there's the problems of a) Rewarding longevity without punsihing noobs and b) rewarding victory without overly punishing losses to add to the mess.

Bottom line: Making a balanced, fun, and deep MMOFPS is hard.  REALLY hard.   

[Venkman]

I'm going to be honest, the real dollars in a pvp game is competitive pvp, rts, fps, tcg's, fighting games.

I don't get this.

I do, though I may be defining "real dollars" differently than DL.

PvP is about skill first, accoutrements second. MMORPGs generally get that formula backwards, which is why PvP is generally only for those who got bored of PvE, whether in the current game or in some predecessor game. I don't imagine people coming from the RTS or FPS genres into WoW Arenas as a step up. More than likely they came from EQ1 raids to WoW BGs and then Arenas. Even more likely they came for WoW and then went to PvP after their fifth capped alt. Nobody is looking for TF2 here. Because there's already TF2 and it did it better than any MMO has (not because of the tech, but because the game more adequately hit the target audience).

Meanwhile, every other multiplayer genre has been fundamentally competitive since the days of token rings. Doom wasn't popular because of theme. People didn't play Dune for the story. The longevity of the games and these genres is about the competition they offer, the brinkmanship, the clear advancement of personal skill.

That's why you can have sponsored competitions around FPS, RTS, TCGs and fighting games. Yea, you can have them around WoW Arenas too, but that's more because of the sheer size of WoW and brand awareness than anything else. Take "WoW" out, and any MMO with Arenas doesn't have sponsors banging on the door.

PS couldn't launch today. It'd close faster than TR. Back then it was ahead of its time, just for the wrong audience and not a good enough alternative for the right one. Particularly with the fee.

I still don't think this is about how to make a better PS either. I think it's more about finding out what FPS gamers want that they aren't getting, and how to monetize it.

[DLRiley]

Nebu your forgetting c. Giving a good reason for individuals to log on. You have to approach the problem in this sense; player logs on, player wants to get into the action as quickly as possible, socializing comes eventually.  The problem with all persistent world pvp games is that they are by design expecting players who have logged on for exactly 5 minutes to already be socializing and/or already having a friend/guild group to organize and play with. Don't get me wrong entire guilds DO migrate from one game to another and a good numbers of players DO play games with their friends, but on the other hand NOT accounting for the player who isn't in a guild or finds himself in no rush to be in one and/or NOT having a friend or playing with said friend regularly during the course of the game is faulty and down right bad game design.

Darniaq we're on the same page.  Guild Wars came close, but didn't have nearly the amount of accessibility even in the "casual but still competitive areas" leaving you vastly 2 qualities (no competition vs highly competitive) of pvp with no middle ground for the vast majority of pvp'ers new or veteran.

[Mrbloodworth]

Planetside was more FPS with a RPG system on top. So i am not sure how that's relevant. The rest, was real role playing, not a RPG system. Again, Planetsides issues were that each base was fundamentally the same, and the game play became repetitive because of it, toss in that your 5 hour battle could be flipped later, undoing everything, and an expansion that added nothing really, and then years of letting the game sit, and you have why Planetside is where it is today.

The game already gave everyone things that other FPS did not give (and STILL does), huge battles, persistent world, Outfits that matter, Hacking, Place able objects (CE), tons of play styles were supported, Configurable weapon sets (Cert system), and an achievement system (Merits). As far as players with no outfit, this was never an issue in reality, as there were entire groups of players that would tutor the noobs,  and outfit ALWAYS invite new players, not to mention the tutorial that the last thing it told you to do was find an outfit.

The community was quite strong, more strong than you may find in any MMORPG. Entire groups did marketing, ads, videos...who do you think got SOE to do the fodder program? (That should come back by the way).

Some of you guys, i think are thinking that Planetside wasn't like FPS of the time, or even now, when this is incorrect, it already offered more than most FPS, there are over 30 weapons, 30 vehicles , 6 armor sets, and thousands of load outs, multi-passenger land and air vehicles.

I'd like to see you list any FPS that has even half of that.

It was the lack of varied encounter areas, delinquent development staff, and lack of a real territory system or linguistics.

Guild wars is completely irrelevant to this discussion, its a RPG with arbitrary stats that are used to cancel out other, arbitrary stats. It is no where near a FPS. TR also, was not a FPS, neither is Fallen earth.

[DLRiley]

Hmm I'm pretty sure Guild Wars was more competitive than zerg and die planet side. And just because planet side offers something fps games don't doesn't mean fps gamers need those things. I haven't seen it proven that large battles, achievement systems, and big worlds sell First-Person-Shooters the last time I checked.

[Mrbloodworth]

Hmm I'm pretty sure Guild Wars was more competitive than zerg and die planet siide.

Zerg and die? So this all comes from bitterness? Because yes, the Zerg did play, but they didn't matter. It was organized groups that mattered. I, like many other FPS players, do not consider anything with die rolls, Competitive. (Yes i play a lot of MMOG's don't give me the strategy talk, i already fucking know.)

I could really give two shits about mass market appeal, a MMOFPS will never EVER be as large as say, Wow.. And any developer shooting for that target, will fail. Because a lot of gamers simply do not wish to die, or would rather have stats and more stats determine the outcome of a battle. This is NOT the game play or design you want for a MMOFPS, you will just piss off the FPS crowed attracted to your game, and the RPG players for equality valid reasons.

This conversation we have had before.

It's funny you bring up that i listed things, that you don't think FPS games want, because I even typed them in modern FPS terms. Many FPS have added such systems AFTER Planetside did. Not saying they invented it in any shape or form, but yea, the surely do want them, as evidenced by all FPS's now have them.

Planetside also already tried the PvE thing.

I don't think anyone that wants a planetside 2, cares if the unwashed masses play it as well, no, they want an itch scratched that no other game to date has filled, with the possible exception of Warhawk. (And M.A.G, that is still not talked about)

It simply needs to be sustainable enough for continued development.

It could simply be that its not for you. i mean, how long did you play? What other FPS do you play? Are you more of a RPG player, or some other game type?

I am trying really hard to separate my inner planetside fanboi, and reality. Planetside was not far off from brilliant in its features and game play. Those things, are not what have driven it to its current state.

Have a list.

[Sky]

It simply needs to be sustainable enough for continued development.

This. Embrace the niche.

You are not in the niche, DLR, so kindly go fuck yourself.

 

[DLRiley]

Hmm I'm pretty sure Guild Wars was more competitive than zerg and die planet siide.

Zerg and die? So this all comes from bitterness? Because yes, the Zerg did play, but they didn't matter. It was organized groups that mattered. I, like many other FPS players, do not consider anything with die rolls, Competitive.

I could really give two shits about mass market appeal, a MMOFPS will never EVER be as large as say, Wow.. And any developer shooting for that target, will fail. Because a lot of gamers simply do not wish to die, or would rather have stats and more stats determine the outcome of a battle. This is NOT the game play or design you want for a MMOFPS, you will just piss off the FPS crowed attracted to your game, and the RPG players for equality valid reasons.

This conversation we have had before.

It's funny you bring up that i listed things, that you don't think FPS games want, because I even typed them in modern FPS terms. Many FPS have added such systems AFTER Planetside did. Not saying they invented it in any shape or form, but yea, the surely do want them, as evidenced by all FPS's now have them.

Planetside also already tried the PvE thing.

I don't think anyone that wants a planetside 2, cares if the unwashed masses play it as well, no, they want an itch scratched that no other game to date has filled, with the possible exception of Warhawk.

It simply needs to be sustainable enough for continued development.

I mean lets be serious. A real attempt at a mmofps, would probably be extremely successful. But there ARE problems with the current rule set past and present that needs to be addressed BEFORE said block buster game happens, because honestly anything remotely less than that is simply a waste of time and money. This isn't nearly as hopeless as sand box genre, but it could find a new level of suck if done wrong multiple times. But no planet side didn't scratch the gameplay itch or the competitive itch of fps gamers or even more basic pvp'ers, then and I doubt it would now.

[Mrbloodworth]

It simply needs to be sustainable enough for continued development.

This. Embrace the niche.

You are not in the niche, DLR, so kindly go fuck yourself.

 

[DLRiley]

It simply needs to be sustainable enough for continued development.

This. Embrace the niche.

You are not in the niche, DLR, so kindly go fuck yourself.

 

Niche games are free to play games and EVE. If your not one or the other, why are you charging me a monthly fee again?

[Speedy Cerviche]

Still waiting for someone to do a modern version of 64 player BF1942 servers (skillful but arcadish/balanced combat + vehicles) + basic planetside style character advancement/customization that doesn't give powerlevelers any kind of real advantage.

[DLRiley]

Still waiting for someone to do a modern version of 64 player BF1942 servers (skillful but arcadish/balanced combat + vehicles) + basic planetside style character advancement/customization that doesn't give powerlevelers any kind of real advantage.

Now that will be fun, still won't pay to play it though 

[Nebu]

Now that will be fun, still won't pay to play it though 

It's not about whether you would... it's about their being enough of a marketshare to justify the game's existence. 

I think there is a lot of money to be made in MMOFPS games.  Someone just needs to do a good job of making one first. 

[DLRiley]

Now that will be fun, still won't pay to play it though 

It's not about whether you would... it's about their being enough of a marketshare to justify the game's existence. 

I think there is a lot of money to be made in MMOFPS games.  Someone just needs to do a good job of making one first. 

I was being sarcastic about not paying for one of the most awesome fps experiences in my child hood. There isn't a lot of money in MMoFPS games, there is a shit ton of money to be had. Its not a niche genre, you just have to making a FUCKING GOOD GAME that f'ing rocks the socks off of gamers. Shit we STILL doing that with the new fps games it doesn't make sense someone with a decent amount of money and brains can't do that with the mmofps. I'm personally waiting for someone to make a mmofps that isn't a water down fps. You just can't do with the mmofps what the idiots in charge of the UO and EQ did to the MMorpg, you won't make money selling a water down version of the genre by just slapping the mmo label on of it.

[Sky]

Niche games are free to play games and EVE. If your not one or the other, why are you charging me a monthly fee again?

While I suspect at this point you're just trolling, I'll bite. Niche games are those with a niche audience, meaning you don't go into things expecting 400k+ users. You have to tailor the dev budget to 75k (or whatever) users, but you can deliver a much more specialized gameplay experience. PS was a great example of a niche game. A better-done PS would still be a niche game.

~Nothing~ is going to bring in the FPS crowd to sub-based mmo. Maybe, ~maybe~ Halo Online, for the name. But I doubt it. They'll say "why should I pay" and go back to CS. Which, by your ridiculously broad and vague definition, is a niche game. And twitch games aren't going to bring in the core mmo audience. In fact, even casual fps players find things like PS annoying because the good players dominate twitch games.

All of which is why development must be scaled to a niche audience.

Anyway. Since you seem to think there's all this money in mmofps, why don't you quit vaguely saying how awesome it would be and start bullet pointing some shit? Otherwise you're waving your magic wand to create some fantasy in your mind, and we all see you standing there with a twig looking like a jackass. Since you derailed an honest question from someone who does community relations for the company that would be developing PS2 with all this stupid bullshit. How about you answer the man, or take my earlier advice and shut your fucking slobbering piehole?

Thanks.

[DLRiley]

Is 75k players actually enough of a playerbase to justify spending money developing a polished product with the gameplay/game mechanics needs of said playerbase and charge said playerbase a monthly fee? Nichie mmo's are made with Indie money, not actually publishers dollars who are more interested in doing something besides paying their light bill.

If someone had the bright idea to expand the concepts used in L4D to accommodate a unknown number of players on multiple sides of an engagement, then you will probably make more money doing that then attempting to make a reskinned planet side.

[Lantyssa]

Depends on the monthly sub.  All the suits seem to think it has to be the same price as all the other MMOs.  We're only now starting to reach the point where that mould is being broken.  A $2 sub fee "to cover server costs" (even if it doesn't) for example.

[DLRiley]

Depends on the monthly sub.  All the suits seem to think it has to be the same price as all the other MMOs.  We're only now starting to reach the point where that mould is being broken.  A $2 sub fee "to cover server costs" (even if it doesn't) for example.

The problem is, can a indie company make a stable planet side. Though arguable a $5 a month planet side would have had more stickiness than a $15 a month planet side, but you also have to consider whether the cost of running planet side, or even the residual cost of development of planet side can even support a $5 a month sub model, without 3x the amount of players actually playing planet side.

[gryeyes]

Is 75k players actually enough of a playerbase to justify spending money developing a polished product with the gameplay/game mechanics needs of said playerbase and charge said playerbase a monthly fee?

EvE seemed to make it work out rather well. They also don't charge for expansions.