Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[UnSub]

Stay away from my healthy competition, you impatient wannabe winners.

Define "healthy competition".

Thus far the point has been that Aion PvP appears to reward those who actively avoid the fair fight. Taking your soccer example, it's like Real Madrid avoid playing AC Milano and head down for some "healthy competition" with the Under 12s 4th Division in order to get the sponsors' money.

Fake Edit: ... or maybe I'll just come back 3 months after launch and when Falconeer goes into his "they got a lot of things wrong but I enjoy it and I'm sorry for enjoying it because I know it's wrong" routine.

[Hindenburg]

While 20 of them top rankers will farm you, another 20 will help you!

And let that worthless trailer trash leech our AP? Fuck him in the neck. We'll farm the other faction somewhere else.

Also, you can play open pvp solo and win. It's called "playing a stealth class".

The fuck is a dogdamn?

[Falconeer]

"they got a lot of things wrong but I enjoy it and I'm sorry for enjoying it because I know it's wrong" routine.

Haha, that's cool. But I can list you NOW what is not even close to what I want to see in a PvP game.
We are discussing some specifics here, not saying Aion is finally open PvP done right. It's not even close. Conan was closer, Shadowbane was closer. Pre-Trammel UO was closer.

Define "healthy competition".

Thus far the point has been that Aion PvP appears to reward those who actively avoid the fair fight. Taking your soccer example, it's like Real Madrid avoid playing AC Milano and head down for some "healthy competition" with the Under 12s 4th Division in order to get the sponsors' money.

Thus far, and for pages and pages, said point has been contested. On a game about killing and violence "healthy competition" isn't bowing to your opponent before attacking. You don't call a game of Diplomacy (the boardgame) unhealthy because of the backstabbing when that's exactly what you are supposed to do in order to win. That's why the point subtly switched from "I can't be number one!" to "It is too hard and grindy for me to be number one!"

The football example applies to the "rich get richer" mechanics (look at what Barcelona is buying right now with those Champions League money  ), not to an open "I fight whoever I like" environment.
As stated before, chances are no one will be able to keep their spots by avoiding the fights for a prolonged time, not to mention you LOSE your rank everytime you upgrade yourself to a most powerful version, technically leaving spots open for newcomers. Finally, in Aion you can get allies, as strong as your opposition. Social skills can be as powerful as eye-hand coordination in this games (although that's no one's cup of tea around here but me). In football you can't. Here you can and you must. Cry me a river if you are lone gunners without enough skill or free time to materialize your dreams of victory in a game with ten thousands of competitors.

Faction based open PvP, flexible and dynamic ranking = healthy competition.


Hindenburg, you are trying too hard to one-linedly prove all your micro-points only based on your limited open PvP experiences. That's pure DLRileying.

[tmp]

Thus far the point has been that Aion PvP appears to reward those who actively avoid the fair fight.

The counter-point to that being, if you're trying to have a "fair" fight in open world PvP you're doing it wrong. See: EvE.

[Hindenburg]

limited open PvP experiences. That's pure DLRileying.

I've actually got far more MMO time on characters on pvp servers than on pve. Also, this point, if carried further, would open up the DF review time subject yet again.
I'd also have to commit a shitload more typos to be like Riley. Seriously.
Trying too hard is pot, meet kettle.

Also, ad hominem. You don't wanna go there.

open PvP done right... Pre-Trammel UO was closer.

Ohshi-

I see you're also trolling.

[DLRiley]

Thus far the point has been that Aion PvP appears to reward those who actively avoid the fair fight.

The counter-point to that being, if you're trying to have a "fair" fight in open world PvP you're doing it wrong. See: EvE.

Pretty much. Open world pvp is so predictable on the scale that matters it is laughable. See group, check size, if your size > their size engage. See player, determine gear/level, your level > their level engage. I can program a bot (most people would consider that an AI...) to do that, give it player skins/character models and 99% of the open world pvp player base wouldn't tell the difference. Hell if I added 2-3 phrases that it spouts off on occasion I would fool the 1%.

[Draegan]

I love it when F13 magnifies on one aspect of the game and then calls the whole game shit because of it or at least makes a gigantic stink because of it.

You guys are funny, especially calling Falc a troll.  C'mon now.

You know what?  In the end, this game is very casual friendly and you're all crying about not being able to get Rank 1 and compete with that guy and most of you havn't gotten passed level 10 or even played the game yet.

[tmp]

Pretty much. Open world pvp is so predictable on the scale that matters it is laughable. See group, check size, if your size > their size engage. See player, determine gear/level, your level > their level engage.

What if it's less numbers but better gear, or the other way around?

I can program a bot (most people would consider that an AI...) to do that, give it player skins/character models and 99% of the open world pvp player base wouldn't tell the difference. Hell if I added 2-3 phrases that it spouts off on occasion I would fool the 1%.

Of course; it will be like reinventing the wheel the FPS games built a long time ago, very fitting for the usual "MMO are soooo behind the times" song and dance.

[Bzalthek]

I love it when F13 magnifies on one aspect of the game and then calls the whole game shit because of it or at least makes a gigantic stink because of it.

You guys are funny, especially calling Falc a troll.  C'mon now.

You know what?  In the end, this game is very casual friendly and you're all crying about not being able to get Rank 1 and compete with that guy and most of you havn't gotten passed level 10 or even played the game yet.

It's nothing serious.  Falc is just bringing his hardcore pvp crazy into the mix.  Remember that this is the guy who was "perfectly fine with pre-Trammel."  Why?  Because he's one of the wolves.  Trammel allowed the sheep to remove themselves as the wolves perpetual victims.  He's white knighting for hardcore pvp because he wants another world where he can be a wolf, but doesn't understand that every game comes pre-equipped with its own Trammel in the form of other games to play. 

The sheep will come to Aion, and they will find the wolves, and they will either leave or convince the devs to change Aion to protect them.  If the sheep leave, so will most of the wolves.  There may be some wolves who prefer the challenge of fighting other wolves, but to think they're common would be a mistake.  If they wanted challenge they'd be playing FPSs.

[Falconeer]

Remember that this is the guy who was "perfectly fine with pre-Trammel."  Why?  Because he's one of the wolves. 

Someone pull the keyboard away from this guy.
You know nothing about this white purple knight here, sir. Not even the basic stuff everyone on f13 knows.

[Bzalthek]

So are you denying the pre-Trammel statement then?

[Falconeer]

 

[Bzalthek]

Heh. Ok sparky, have fun with your emotes.

[DLRiley]

Pretty much. Open world pvp is so predictable on the scale that matters it is laughable. See group, check size, if your size > their size engage. See player, determine gear/level, your level > their level engage.

What if it's less numbers but better gear, or the other way around?

I can program a bot (most people would consider that an AI...) to do that, give it player skins/character models and 99% of the open world pvp player base wouldn't tell the difference. Hell if I added 2-3 phrases that it spouts off on occasion I would fool the 1%.

Of course; it will be like reinventing the wheel the FPS games built a long time ago, very fitting for the usual "MMO are soooo behind the times" song and dance.

I really didn't have to go into group and gear logic trees, simply calculating the overall attack power and overall defense power and if your attack/defense > attack/defense of opposing group, engage. The sad thing is such a calculation isn't hard to make, mmo's love vertical increase in power, by this fact a simple check on overall stats can accurately tell an AI whether to engage or not with very little error, considering players do it all the time in a matter of seconds.

The point i'm making is less that mmo's are behind the times, they are, but that is a different discussion. To me anything that is not competitive is not pvp. PvE is not inherently competitive, players may have competitive feelings but your not actually competing. Their are no losers except the environment. Open world pvp by my understanding of it is rarely if ever competitive, the wolf and sheep paradigm is not conductive to a competitive game, which by extension a pvp game. The non-hardcore simply exist to get killed by the hardcore,  in pve the mobs exist simply to be killed by players.  

Shrilling over aions backwater pvp, while fun, ultimately doesn't make this game suck if you can ignore the abyss and do pve content. But from my understanding 100% of the endgame pve content is in the abyss so....

[tmp]

I really didn't have to go into group and gear logic trees, simply calculating the overall attack power and overall defense power and if your attack/defense > attack/defense of opposing group, engage. The sad thing is such a calculation isn't hard to make, mmo's love vertical increase in power, by this fact a simple check on overall stats can accurately tell an AI whether to engage or not with very little error, considering players do it all the time in a matter of seconds.

There's a small snag to this hyperbole, proven by the games themselves. Simply put, if this model is so predictable, simplified and easy, how comes anyone actually loses/scores any points in these games?

The theory is simple, "see weaker enemy, engage, see stronger enemy, don't". The practice, not so much when the catch is in carrying out that "don't". Things like feints, pretending weakness to lure enemy into a trap and things like that are really the oldest tricks in the book as far as human experience with warfare goes.

Open world pvp by my understanding of it is rarely if ever competitive, the wolf and sheep paradigm is not conductive to a competitive game, which by extension a pvp game. The non-hardcore simply exist to get killed by the hardcore,  in pve the mobs exist simply to be killed by players.

Again, the games themselves prove this belief to be wrong -- considerable part of PvP conflicts in EvE involve PvP oriented player groups fighting one another. So the competitive play is certainly there. As for the "non-hardcore vs hardcore" thing... it is rather odd view. In pretty much any game or sport a dedicated and talented player will beat one who is lacking either of these advantages, the hardcore will beat the non-hardcore. It doesn't mean the non-hardcore players are there only so the hardcore have some easy targets. They're there mainly as equal-level opponent to similar non-hardcore players.

Of course there's also going to be some players who would rather have nothing to do with PvP at all and only ever play with PvE, but then you have to question common sense of such player if they choose to play the game which makes the PvP almost mandatory. It's a bit like avid gun-hater choosing to compete in biathlon because they like skiing a lot.

[DLRiley]

Is EvE always the default answer when people defend open world pvp? For one while the "don't" is hard to execute in pratice I don't consider it pvp when my opponent doesn't want to fight me. Second while EvE skirmishes do happen, can you honestly say that they happen often enough to placate a large player base? Sure skirmishes happen, but not at any rate considered optimal, camping gates and hunting solo'ers nets you more action per hour in EvE then attempting to find a like minded group. On the large scale when was the last time the EvE world had a major power shift?

[Ashamanchill]

and stuck to a pair of painful Chuck's that give you bilsters?

I was on your side Falc, until this venomous libel.  Now you have an enemy for life!!!

Seroiusly though, doesn't this thread hinge a little too much on something we have no data for?

The primary difference to my mind is that in WoW a raider can have a massive gear advantage over me (and they do) without impairing my game. This game encourages people to farm other players to progress and at a high pace if you want to compete for the top slots. And along the way you are rewarded with superior equipment and abilities to give you an advantage / reward.

I mean, we don't know the specifics of any of the abilities or gear at higher levels.  They may be one of the roflpwn ones, like a deal a mortal strike to every member of the opposing raid, or they may be as trivial as a new dance.  We don't know.

As for having higher pvp levels farm lower ones, that is mitigated somewhat by it being a two sided game.  Yes there are going to be catass million kill a day assholes with the best in slot on the other side, but your side will have them as well.

[Falconeer]

and stuck to a pair of painful Chuck's that give you bilsters?

I was on your side Falc, until this venomous libel.  Now you have an enemy for life!!!

I'm always the guy with the Chucks, Ash. That's what I was trying to tell that dude with the wolves and sheeps crap.

[Arthur_Parker]

Remember that this is the guy who was "perfectly fine with pre-Trammel."  Why?  Because he's one of the wolves. 

The antis got shafted along with the rpk's, I was perfectly fine with pre-Trammel, I wasn't a wolf.  This conversation isn't encouraged here any longer because it's beyond boring.

[Threash]

This thread went full retard about 4 pages ago.

[Arthur_Parker]

oh, carry on then, I only read the last page.

[tmp]

I kind of got the state so that's it.

[Ceryse]

I'm really surprised (although, I guess I really shouldn't be) at the tone and persistence of the last couple pages here. Now, granted, my PvP experience in MMOs is limited to WoW (I only betaed Eve and never played it at retail because my computer was shit back then and got into WoW after that) so I don't really know anything about UO, pre or post trammel, or any other PvP MMO, but.. I don't understand the whole 'but the top xx will be able to farm the majority' line. Of course they will; whether its skill or time, populations in any relatively competitive environment (multiplayer games, sports, even business, etc.) will always eventually get to the point where a minority routinely trounces the majority. Always. This isn't news and isn't by itself a bad mechanic, it just 'is'.

You cannot create a playing field where all players of even skill remain even forever. It just won't work in a diku model. Aion does better than most at limiting the affect of time played on ability to compete, however. Now, I haven't played Chinese retail, so I am only going off of beta-event experience and what I've read, but from what I can tell the ramp up in effectiveness of your character isn't as severe as some here are making it out to be. Those who never get beyond the rank and file ranks (where there's no limit to how many can hold those ranks; ie. all but the top 1000 on each faction) are not blocked from attaining any gear; it just takes them longer. Conversely, they gain points at a faster pace (in the time they do play) than one who is ranked higher; so even though they don't play as much or whatever, there is a mechanism in place to limit the degree to which the hardcore can out-pace those who play less.

So I really doubt you will see the same group at the top; because once you get there your advancement slows to a crawl; due to caution, lowered rate of point gain, risk of relatively high point loss on death and the need to travel in smaller and smaller groups if you want to minimize the slowing of your point gains, thus increasing your risk of point loss. So the system actually encourages turn over in the top ranks. Not that it'll matter to those of us who cannot or will not put in those extra days of pvping or grinding (and it is a grind heavy game; but that's not a surprise -- you know that going in, as the game is catering to a certain crowd) but you do remain competitive with the top ranks.

Especially since you can't tell the level of your opponent and people can make their shitty gear look as if its the top end gear (so you could get a newbie seeming to look like they have all the best pvp gear) the high ranked players can be made to be more prone to shying away from a fight (Or, once they realize a large number of players merely 'appear' to have the top gear, they may commit to fights more often thinking its merely another guy with the appearance of a top ranker).

Don't know how the end-game will turn out to be. It may end up broken as shit and it may be fucking boring. But a lot of you seem to be bitching over the wrong flaws (or perceived flaws) in my opinion. Top farms bottom; that's not something to get your panties in a bunch over -- that's a fact of life, especially with how players will play a game. Is it a good thing? Maybe, maybe not; but not matter what they do design-wise, that's how it'll turn out. There will always be some factor that stratifies the player population into a top and bottom. I think Aion does a decent job at embracing this fact and giving us on the bottom lube for when we get ass-fucked. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong; goodness knows the MMO genre isn't exactly a stranger to abject design failure. The game feels fun enough to me after playing it that I'm willing to risk it.

Shit, either way I'll get my money's worth on the pre-order, especially compared to the short-ass games that are so prevalent.

[Lantyssa]

In all this I haven't seen the question or answer to what I wonder most:  Are the points you lose to other players the same ones you spend to buy these end-game items?

If yes, then how much of a bad-ass/grinder/whatever do you need to be to save them long enough to spend?  If no, then you can ignore the second question.

[Ceryse]

In all this I haven't seen the question or answer to what I wonder most:  Are the points you lose to other players the same ones you spend to buy these end-game items?

If yes, then how much of a bad-ass/grinder/whatever do you need to be to save them long enough to spend?  If no, then you can ignore the second question.

They are the same, yes.

As to the second-half.. not entirely sure, given lack of personal experience, but from what I've read (insert healthy dollop of salt); for everything except the weapons (which tend to be the most expensive items [and if you play a Cleric, like me, of relatively low importance..]) the grind or time it takes to get enough points doesn't seem too bad. I've heard some conflicting stories, but I think the top players (who play a lot) took a few months to get everything but the weapon. Point gains for the majority should be faster with 1.5, especially with the PvPvE instances which supposedly offer fairly decent point/hour rates. This could, however, end up being one of the areas Aion fucks the dog. They are a little.. grind happy in the design (although 1.5 seems to show they are aware that this is possibly a 'bad' thing, which coiuld be good).

[Threash]

In all this I haven't seen the question or answer to what I wonder most:  Are the points you lose to other players the same ones you spend to buy these end-game items?

If yes, then how much of a bad-ass/grinder/whatever do you need to be to save them long enough to spend?  If no, then you can ignore the second question.

You don't need to be very bad ass to buy items since they are the same points you use to rank up the act of buying items keeps you at the lower ranks were you gain a whole lot more for kills than you do for deaths.  Trying to hold a high rank while not having all the pvp gear seems like a bad idea.

[Ashamanchill]

and stuck to a pair of painful Chuck's that give you bilsters?

I was on your side Falc, until this venomous libel.  Now you have an enemy for life!!!

I'm always the guy with the Chucks, Ash. That's what I was trying to tell that dude with the wolves and sheeps crap.

Attaboy.  Represent.  You're off The List.

[Lantyssa]

You don't need to be very bad ass to buy items since they are the same points you use to rank up the act of buying items keeps you at the lower ranks were you gain a whole lot more for kills than you do for deaths.

See, what I'm leary of is that 80% who just suck at PvP.  Sure buying them keeps rank down, but I question if the average person is going to be able to hold on to enough points to even have that option.  Maybe, maybe not.

I will withhold my own judgement until I see it in action, however the paper version does concern me.

[Draegan]

You don't need to be very bad ass to buy items since they are the same points you use to rank up the act of buying items keeps you at the lower ranks were you gain a whole lot more for kills than you do for deaths.

See, what I'm leary of is that 80% who just suck at PvP.  Sure buying them keeps rank down, but I question if the average person is going to be able to hold on to enough points to even have that option.  Maybe, maybe not.

I will withhold my own judgement until I see it in action, however the paper version does concern me.

Your homework assignment is to go find out how many points you lose at the lowest rank.  Then go find out how many points you gain when you kill an NPC.

Or I can do it for you and say it basically is the same.  If you die in in the Abyss at the lowest rank, to regain your AP loss is to kill just one mob, perhaps two.

In order to gain all the points you need for gear, you can do it all via PVE, especially in the PvPvE dungeons in 1.5 according tot he test server reports and the patch notes.

Now Lantyssa.  Did you play WOW?  Did you ever get the best in slot gear for your character?

I'm going to assume you didn't.

Guess what?  You can PVP and PVE grind your way solo, small group or raid into the best gear in the game. 
I'll define grind as killing mobs over and over.  Doing instanced PVE dungeons over and over.  PVP players over and over.  Basically playing the game.

Now I don't see anyone crying in the WOW forums because they can't get hardmode Ulduar gear solo or in single group stuff.  This is the same thing.  There is some amazing gear, if not better gear, that you can get via crafting and PVE dungeons.

You want to be leary about something?  Be leary about getting the gear first then enchanting it to +10.  That's what the difference is going to be.  Everyone will eventually have all the gear they can buy, but the "catasses" will have it all +10.

What does +10 do?

Plate
Chest = +6 Physical Defense per level
Legs = +5 Physical Defense per level
Pauldron = +4 Physical Defense per level
Gloves = +4 Physical Defense per level
Boots = +4 Physical Defense per level

Chain
Chest = +5 Physical Defense per level
Legs = +4 Physical Defense per level
Pauldron = +3 Physical Defense per level
Gloves = +3 Physical Defense per level
Boots = +3 Physical Defense per level

Leather
Chest = +4 Physical Defense per level
Legs = +3 Physical Defense per level
Pauldron = +2 Physical Defense per level
Gloves = +2 Physical Defense per level
Boots = +2 Physical Defense per level

Cloth
Chest = +3 Physical Defense per level
Legs = +2 Physical Defense per level
Pauldron = +1 Physical Defense per level
Gloves = +1 Physical Defense per level
Boots = +1 Physical Defense per level

Primary
Polearm = +4 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level
Greatsword = +4 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level
Bows = +4 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level
Staff = +3 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level, +10 Magic Boost per level
Sword = +2 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level
Dagger = +2 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level
Mace = +3 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level, +10 Magic Boost per level
Orb = +4 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level, +10 Magic Boost per level
Spellbook = +3 Minimum and Maximum Weapon Damage per level, +10 Magic Boost per level

Secondary
Shield = +2% Damage Reduction per level

[Ceryse]

Ah, yes.. the enchanting system.

Last beta I failed to enchant sixteen times in a row; that was fun.

Like I said in my last post; Aion has plenty of problems that potentially could stop it from doing really well in NA. I see the PvP issues raised in the last couple pages as minor compared to some of the other issues; namely the UI and how deeply the grind permeates the rest of the game and how poorly its dressed up.

[Koyasha]

That's not a bad system.  Way better than Lineage II's the item blows up if your enchant fails, better than blessed enchant scrolls where you ONLY lose the enchants on the item if it fails (stripping it down to +0 with one failure) or the PSU grinding system which is about the same.  Losing only one plus limits your risk to a reasonable degree.

[Morfiend]

I will withhold my own judgement until I see it in action, however the paper version does concern me.

While being the MMO slut that I am, I will be playing the game, but I also am concerned about the system on paper.

[Draegan]

Ah, yes.. the enchanting system.

You were using the wrong level enchants?

[tmp]

See, what I'm leary of is that 80% who just suck at PvP.  Sure buying them keeps rank down, but I question if the average person is going to be able to hold on to enough points to even have that option.  Maybe, maybe not.

I checked the Aion version of armoury site and found the following there. It's prices in these abyss points for l.50 gear of various quality

* orange sword: 614k points (120 dps)
* light blue sword: 205k points (111 dps)
* green sword: 85k points (102 dps)

85k points seem to be within reach of regular player, considering the hardcore guy from interview got 70k or so points in single day. The difference of lowest and highest quality gear is ~20% while cost in points for the latter is over 7x ... the balance between cost and benefit seems to be towards the causal players if anything. Of course, only time and practice can really tell.

[Ceryse]

You were using the wrong level enchants?

No, I just had an extremely bad run of luck, I tend to have those in games. Incredibly unlikely but they happen and its very frustrating when it happens. Now, I used some that were lower level, but I also used a good number of equal or higher level ones; cost me most of the kinah I had at the time.