Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[UnSub]

Porn: sometimes it's really just morbid curiosity.

The look in her eyes shows the depths of her degredation.

[tkinnun0]

All this talk about whether the grind is like classic WoW or not and no numbers? Here's some numbers.

Some gear, how many gold medals and abyss points you need:

Archon Tribunus's Breastplate, 42, 409900 Abyss Points
Archon Tribunus's Plate Gloves, 21, 205000 Abyss Points
Archon Tribunus's Plate Pauldrons, 21, 205000 Abyss Points
Archon Tribunus's Plate Greaves, 31, 307400 Abyss Points
Archon Tribunus's Plate Boots, 21, 205000 Abyss Points
Archon Tribunus's Plate Helmet, 31, 307400 Abyss Points

Total: 167 medals and 1639700 Abyss points.

To put that in perspective, you have to be the highest damage dealer in a fortress raid 56 times and accumulate twice the points needed to be eligible for the highest rank.

To put that further in perspective, here's some thoughts from a player named GodMode from Januarylast month:

Currently GodMode is a rank 5 General, trying to get my final abyss item, the level 50 yellow abyss sword (looks so nice!), which costs 614,000 AP. When I kill a level 45-50 elite I get 27 AP. However if die I lose about 10,000 AP. If I kill a non elite I get 1 AP.

E: stupic American date format...

[Hindenburg]

That sure looks like a massive punch to the scrotum.


Inc "hey, you don't NEED this gear".

[Aez]

Currently GodMode is a rank 5 General, trying to get my final abyss item, the level 50 yellow abyss sword (looks so nice!), which costs 614,000 AP. When I kill a level 45-50 elite I get 27 AP. However if die I lose about 10,000 AP. If I kill a non elite I get 1 AP.

How hard is it to kill an elite?  If it's not too hard it's not THAT bad.  Only need 2300 kills with out a death 

[Draegan]

Well you don't have to maintain Rank 5 and lose so much per death.

[Falconeer]

Hey, you don't NEED this gear!

[Draegan]

I've read that in 1.5 some of the fortress dungeons give out decent AP/hour along with pretty good gear.  We'll see.

[Nissl]

Looking at that thread there's more than 1 badge handed out per fortress siege.  And nobody seems to know exactly how the medals are assigned; I would assume it's not always just top damage or somebody on that thread would have pointed out that healers can't progress as things currently stand.

The top PVP gear will be extremely difficult and take forever to get, but you can take time off from the game unlike WoW 1.0 and there is plenty of intermediate gear.  The average player not being able to get the current best gear isn't a problem as long as they still have gear progression.  

4-5 classes can solo elites, generally very slowly (one per 3 minutes is what I saw).  The other classes need to duo.  It's an issue.

[amiable]

I don't think a gear disparity is bad per se, the issue is how much of  a difference top end gear makes in gameplay.  If it makes you unkillable/allows you to one or two shot average geared players that is going to be a problem.

[Koyasha]

The important thing is you don't lose points for not playing (or not playing enough this week).  If you can only play 14 hours in a week, it'll take you a lot longer to get there, but you can get there.  The system makes no distinction for amount of playtime at once (except whatever's required to participate in fortress battles), so everyone has a fair opportunity to get their stuff eventually.  All progress you either win or lose is directly based on your own success or failure in battle, not some arbitrary 'you didn't play enough this week' sort of thing.

[Draegan]

The more and more I read about gear etc, it looks like abilities and damage don't scale like gear disparity in WOW, but survivability does.  If that makes sense.

[amiable]

The more and more I read about gear etc, it looks like abilities and damage don't scale like gear disparity in WOW, but survivability does.  If that makes sense.

Again it depends on the degree.  If it is reasonable to beat someone with end game gear in crafted/mid end pvp gear but will require you to be fast on your feat, fine.  If it is literally impossible to take down someone with better gear, no matter how well you play and how poorly they do, not so much.

One problem I see already:  the end game pvp boots make you 30% faster...  There better be some gear with an equivalent speed buff you can craft/obtain through some other reasonable mechanism (40 man raids do not count) or  .

[Bzalthek]

This is going outside the bounds of absurd and into the realm of hilarious

[Draegan]

The more and more I read about gear etc, it looks like abilities and damage don't scale like gear disparity in WOW, but survivability does.  If that makes sense.

Again it depends on the degree.  If it is reasonable to beat someone with end game gear in crafted/mid end pvp gear but will require you to be fast on your feat, fine.  If it is literally impossible to take down someone with better gear, no matter how well you play and how poorly they do, not so much.

One problem I see already:  the end game pvp boots make you 30% faster...  There better be some gear with an equivalent speed buff you can craft/obtain through some other reasonable mechanism (40 man raids do not count) or  .

You can buy/make scrolls that give you speed buffs.  They're not hard/expensive to make either.

[amiable]

You can buy/make scrolls that give you speed buffs.  They're not hard/expensive to make either.

Do they stack with the boots?  If so then it is a zero sum gain (especially if they are cheap, then the hardcore fellow will most definitely have them).

[Draegan]

I have no idea.

[Kageru]

The primary difference to my mind is that in WoW a raider can have a massive gear advantage over me (and they do) without impairing my game. This game encourages people to farm other players to progress and at a high pace if you want to compete for the top slots. And along the way you are rewarded with superior equipment and abilities to give you an advantage / reward.

In short for every player competing for the top ranks they need a massive number of people to kill and they are heavily discouraged from anything approaching a fair fight. Even once they achieve their rank they must maintain their point advantage indefinitely.

I consider that a pretty odious mechanic.

[Bzalthek]

So essentially, as a non-power gamer, Aion is not only encouraging power gamers to farm you, they are actively enabling them to do so.

[Falconeer]

Simply put, your multiplayer videogaming mentality is geared towards other, already available MMORPGs. I thought we all agreed on this 10 pages ago.

[Bzalthek]

So that's a "yes."

[jakonovski]

When exactly did MMOs become mere enablers of obsessive compulsive neuroses?

[DLRiley]

Backwater pvp from the box in an "pvp" mmo? It most be thanksgiving. 

[Falconeer]

So that's a "yes."

There's something for everyone in a game like Aion, casual, catass, PvE, PvP, arena, sieges, raids. But non-power gamers shouldn't care about winning or losing, or ranks, or the most uber gear in the fucking competitive pvp part of the game. That IS the realm of powergamers. So what the fuck are you talking about. Do you know who you are?

But, alas, I know where that comes from, so to reassure you about your emotionally confused and frustrated concerns in regards to superiority and entitlement,

So essentially, as a non-power gamer, Aion is not only encouraging power gamers to farm you, they are actively enabling them to do so.

you should know that reading is hard but can help you greatly in life. It has been stated so many times in this thread what is there to limit this and help everyone to get the place they deserve on the PvP scale, and you clearly don't care about understanding. But ultimately, on a roughly ten thousands players, yes, the top ones will farm you to death.

So? What's your point exactly, other than "this game is not for me"? Which is my point.

Let me tell you a story. Back to the old NBA ring's example I made some posts ago, someone told me "winning a ring doesn't make you stronger next year". That is true for North American sports, but not true for Euro sports, where the winner gets money, prizes, sponsors, and with those money can make a stronger team. And they do. So yes, in Euro sports the rich gets richer. You can easily check that, I reccomend you to do it. And whether you think it is right or not, guess what? No one stops competing in pro sports because they know they are not gonna win, ever.

Some of you can't stand not having the chance, unless you invest as much as the top rankers (and you don't want to), to become number one.
While some others, they just like playing, and the feeling of competition. Ranking, winning and losing are a fun metagame but nothing worth getting bitter about.

Stay away from my healthy competition, you impatient wannabe winners.

[DLRiley]

So falconeer will you be leaving AoC for the Aion experience or are you simply defending bad game design open world pvp because its bad game design open world pvp.

[amiable]

Let me tell you a story. Back to the old NBA ring's example I made some posts ago, someone told me "winning a ring doesn't make you stronger next year". That is true for North American sports, but not true for Euro sports, where the winner gets money, prizes, sponsors, and with those money can make a stronger team. And they do. So yes, in Euro sports the rich gets richer. You can easily check that, I reccomend you to do it. And whether you think it is right or not, guess what? No one stops competing in pro sports because they know they are not gonna win, ever.

This is a stupid analogy and you need to stop making it.

[Draegan]

This is where someone pops in an says "So this is a normal korean grind MMOG right?"

You will have high level players farming each other.  This isn't truly FFA PVP.  There are two sides.  There are going to be numerous non-ranked players vs. the amount of hardcore ranked players.  You guys are getting too sandy. 

[Falconeer]

This is a stupid analogy and you need to stop making it.

I won't until you'll get the point: playing because it's fun to play versus playing to achieve. So many belong to the second group when it comes to videogames. What's wrong with you?
And the grind poop argument? While raiding a dungeon is a grind to me, PvP, because of its intrinsecal unpredictability, is as much of a grind as playing basketball every weekend with my friends: it never gets old wheter we win or not.

[jakonovski]

I won't until you'll get the point: playing because it's fun to play versus playing to achieve. So many belong to the second group when it comes to videogames. What's wrong with you?
And the grind poop argument? While raiding a dungeon is a grind to me, PvP, because of its intrinsecal unpredictability, is as much of a grind as playing basketball every weekend with my friends: it never gets old wheter we win or not.

Ohh, I know the answer to that: the diku MMO has no gameplay. I mean that literally. Even player interaction through pvp is achieved by first enduring tens of hours of tedium.

[amiable]

This is a stupid analogy and you need to stop making it.

I won't until you'll get the point: playing because it's fun to play versus playing to achieve. So many belong to the second group when it comes to videogames. What's wrong with you?
And the grind poop argument? While raiding a dungeon is a grind to me, PvP, because of its intrinsecal unpredictability, is as much of a grind as playing basketball every weekend with my friends: it never gets old wheter we win or not.

I got the point: it is pointless to argue with you about this because you refuse to acknowledge anything critical of this game.  It's a stupid analogy because when you play basketball with your friends, you don't give the person who won last week a 30 point advantage.  I love PvP, but that doesn't mean I'm going to excuse inherent flaws in game design that will make PvP less fun.  It is not fun to play against a catass who one shots you and if this game encourages that mechanic it is going to have real problems when folks start hitting mid to high levels.  It's not the unpredictability folks take issue with, its a design that rewards gameplay that isn't fun.

[Shatter]

I think Falcon and Am need to group hug, but I see both points.  I agree with Falcon that most people arent the Grand Marshall PvP farming be #1 type of player, they PvP for the fun of it and work towards gear over time and inbetween have fun and learn for the most part.  The people that will get frustrated by their existing systems will be those trying to get high ranks in PvP and hitting brick walls in the process.  However Am has a point too though that those same casual PvP types I mentioned above will get facerolled by the hard core folks which in turn ruins the fun.  PvP isnt fun if you lose constantly or die to the same person over and over, even for a casual player that just frustrating.  Personally I am somewhere inbetween both types.  I want to get to a relatively high rank and have decent gear, but I also know Ill never be a top dog and I accept that.  However I dont want to be some high rank players b*tch all day long either. 

[Hindenburg]

PvP, because of its intrinsecal unpredictability

MMO PvP is anything but unpredictable.

Also, Shatter, GTFO with your even-handed position.

Carry on.

[tmp]

MMO PvP is anything but unpredictable.

Yeah, you either win or you lose.

Oh, wait.

[Falconeer]

MMO PvP is anything but unpredictable.

Yes it is. Or define predictable and unpredictable.

[Modern Angel]

I've seen a zillion dudes on this board come through talking about how it's fun to just play and not worry about the catasses or the grind. And EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. the grind/catasses/exclusive shiny kicks those people in the nuts three months after release while everyone else points and laughs.

I don't know a whole lot about Aion but holy fuck I've seen this movie before.

[Falconeer]

It's a stupid analogy because when you play basketball with your friends, you don't give the person who won last week a 30 point advantage.

Who cares if my friends/opponents will steamroll me because of their superior skills or because of much better equipment? Are you having fun, or you just play if you can win it all? What if you start playing with your friends when you are 10 years old and you are equally skilled. Then 5 years later your buddy played basket like crazy and is now an ace while you played on and off and couldn't score to save your ass? Is the game not worth anymore? That's you and your 30 points advantage. Equipment, skill. Who cares? What if he has the best Air Jordan ever conceived and you are poor and stuck to a pair of painful Chuck's that give you bilsters? Just play and have fun or shut your face and go look for some AI-based powerachieving game.

The analogy was about pro sports in Europe, still going strong DESPITE the DESIGN FLAW of the rich getting richer, but you'll always find flaws in my analogies because, surprise, they require some common ground to work and we have none. I play multiplayer games for their actions and the interactions, you play multiplayer games to achieve something. I respect that.

Look, I never tried to tell you the game is great and you gotta love it. I am trying to say THIS DESIGN is appealing to many, obviously not everyone but still many. Can't you just make peace with this, accept that a game design can be for some, for a "niche" if you prefer, without having to be flawed because it differs from your playstyle?


Finally, all this talk about the top scorers farming me here and there: It's a dogdamn FACTION-BASED game! There's an equal number of big guys on both side. While 20 of them top rankers will farm you, another 20 will help you! Let me guess: "why I can't play open pvp SOLO and win? design flaw!"