I think I am going to kill myself

[Nebu]

My 2 cents:

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3h, Qc, 7d ]
FabAb1 bets (4000)
KINGRUDDY calls (4000)

You bet, he calls.  The only thing that can put you behind at this point would be a) a higher pocket pair, b) he paired a Q, c) he tripped 3 or 7. Had any of those been the case, the guy would have raised.  In limit poker, slow playing hands is usually a bad idea unless you know you can trap the person later.  The only other possibility I could see is if the guy had a straight draw... but that's pretty unlikely. Since he only called, you have to assume that he has either A X (X= 9, 10, J), K X, or a small pocket pair.  If he had two suited middle cards he would have folded.  

From his perspective, he puts you with a pair of Q's (or perhaps AX or KX) and decides to pay to see one more card or even thinks he has you with 4's.  This, in my opinion, is where limit poker kills you.  The other guy makes a STUPID call with a low pocket pair and it pays off.  

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4h ]
FabAb1 bets (8000)
KINGRUDDY raises (16000) to 16000

Here's my question: At this point he raised you.   What did you think he had?  He called with only one over card on the board (Q to your 9) on the previous bet.  When the 4 shows up, he raises.  In my mind he either a) hit a 4 for trips, b) was slow playing a pair of Q's, or c) bluffing.  I am guessing that you thought he was bluffing as that's the only scenario worth comitting.

In my opinion you got beat by a guy getting bailed out on the turn for making a stupid call.  This is the stuff that makes me crazy... I can only imagine how frustrated you must have been.

[WayAbvPar]

Ab, tough break. You played it fine- contrary to some of the more ignorant posts in this thread, 99 is indeed a fucking MONSTER hand 3 handed. With the stack sizes and blind sizes, you had no choice but to make a stand with this hand. He got lucky (but I probably play it the same way if I am in position). NL the money all would have gone in preflop, but the results would have been the same.

Anyone who doesn't know poker but would like to learn needs to ignore Bruce. Or listen to him and come sit at my table. Bring your wallet.  =)

Edited to add-

Here's my question: At this point he raised you. What did you think he had? He called with only one over card on the board (Q to your 9) on the previous bet. When the 4 shows up, he raises. In my mind he either a) hit a 4 for trips, b) was slow playing a pair of Q's, or c) bluffing. I am guessing that you thought he was bluffing as that's the only scenario worth comitting.

At that point, it doesn't matter what he thinks the opponent had- Ab is pot-commited. If he folds to the raise, he has enough chips for literally 3 more hands- he is the button next hand, then small blind (4000), then big blind (8000). He has to hope his opponent is playing a big A and thinks his hand is best.

Second edit- misread the turn betting- Ab had 20k left, not 12. Which gives him a couple more hands, but with such a tiny stack that he will get called down with anything.

[Abagadro]

Here's my question: At this point he raised you.   What did you think he had?

Your analysis was the same as mine on the flop. If he has a naked Q, he is raising the flop. If he has a made set and is on a trap I am going to have to pay him off on the turn as I can't risk checking the turn becuase it 1) opens me up to a bluff and 2) could possibly give him a free card to river a higher pair and I CANNOT do that.  I basically have to bet the turn to protect what is still a good hand with only one overcard (and just a Q at that) on the board.  When I am raised on the turn when a brick like a 4 hits, my first thought is that he has something like A7 and is trying to push me off (this guy wasn't exactly a great player so I could see this move), so that is an auto-call/raise for me. Second posibility is he hit some shitty two pair like 74 or 34.  I have 8 outs against such a two pair and am seriously committed at this point, so this is an auto-call/raise. I The third possibility is that he has either hit or slowplayed a monster (set or Q7).  In this case I could fold to the turn raise, but this leaves me with a whopping 12k in chips left, three handed with 2k/4k blinds against stacks 8 times higher than mine. I would basically get to see the maximum of 6 hands that will be auto-called by the big stacks because I can't do them any damage. This is no good.  So I basically have to hope he is behind and trying to bully me or that I can hit my 9 on the river. By the turn raise I was totally hand-cuffed and really had no choice buy to pray for the river miracle that didn't come regardless of what I put him on.  I really feel I played the hand correctly and just lost to an unfortunate suck-out.

And Haemish, just to clarify, I didn't lose any money, I actually made a good pay-off on this tourney (65 times my buy-in), I just came up one finishing position short of a huge payoff in the form of a twelve thousand dollar seet in next year's World Series of POker.


EDIT: Wayabvpar: I agree I probably play the 4s the same way with position, for 1/2 price and with my covered 4x1 pre-flop.  The flop call is a bit questionable but he probably put me on A high or something, so can't really fault the guy when he had me covered by so much.

EDIT2: After rereading I realized i said I couldn't risk checking the flop when I meant checking the turn, although both are true. I fixed it.

[WayAbvPar]

EDIT: Wayabvpar: I agree I probably play the 4s the same way with position, for 1/2 price and with my covered 4x1 pre-flop. The flop call is a bit questionable but he probably put me on A high or something, so can't really fault the guy when he had me covered by so much.

A high is good there quite often (hell, K high is good there a lot), so any PP looks like a beast.  If he is wrong, he can get away from it on the turn and still not hurt himself too badly. That also discourages you from raising his blind with rag,  knowing he is going to defend.

[El Gallo]

Sorry about the hand, Ab.  I don't think his play was that awful, considering the stack sizes.  This is one of the reasons I pretty much only play limit ring games.  I like the fact that playing right will win me money.  When I make a play with a 60% chance at working and lose, I know I will have the opportunity to make that same play dozens of times over the weekend and come out ahead.  In a tourney, the first time it doesn't work you may be out or crippled.  Screw that.  Plus, you don't seem to get the superfun and superprofitable "7-way action every other hand" tables at tourneys like you do at many ring tables.  I also just plain suck at tourney play, which is probably the real reason.

[Abagadro]

Wayabvpar, you were right the first time on the turn betting. I obviously can't check the turn when a mesely 4 hits, so after my 8k bet I would havd had 12k left if I fold to the raise.  The betting was 4/8, so the blinds would only have been 2/4 which is where your math got off track.  Your analysis is bang on though.

[Nebu]

Abagadro,

I hope that you don't think I was faulting you.  I just wanted to hear what was going through your mind during the hand... seeing how others analyze a situation often teaches me new things about play.   I stand by the fact that the guy won on a lucky turn and you were the victim of solid play but bad luck.

[WayAbvPar]

Wayabvpar, you were right the first time on the turn betting. I obviously can't check the turn when a mesely 4 hits, so after my 8k bet I would havd had 12k left if I fold to the raise.  The betting was 4/8, so the blinds would only have been 2/4 which is where your math got off track.  Your analysis is bang on though.

Ahh- this is what comes from reading hand histories sans coffee. Bad idea. Of course, I could have just been projecting- with my luck, the blinds would double just in time for my big blind!

[Abagadro]

Nebu,

Didn't take it badly at all and was just offering up my thought process. Hope it didn't come off as defensive.

[DarkDryad]

Sorry to hear about that Ab. I was supposed to try and get in on one of the qualifiers this weekend but stuff came up. Dont worry about Bruce too much I see where hes comming from. He has yet to make the distiction between Holdem and say 5 card draw.If he spent any time in the game he would realize that P99 is a decent hand Heads up and something to bet the farm on specially when the other guy betting sheepishly.

[SirBruce]

Hell, I was playing Texas and Omaha Hold 'Em before it became cool in movies and TV.  But I was never enamored with it.  I admit, I've played No Limit more than anything else, but my advice regarding pocket nines still stands.

Bruce

[Abagadro]

What category of hand do you consider a sufficient starter in the SB with 3 left in a tourney with a 8BB stack when you are first into the pot?

[El Gallo]

stop, drop and roll.

[WayAbvPar]

Have you had much tournament experience, Bruce? That may be where the difference in opinion lies. In Ab's particular situation, the 9s were played correctly. Were it a normal ring game, he could safely lay them down to the turn raise in most cases (depending on the size of the pot).

9s are a favorite over any hand other than TT, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA preflop. They are a significant favorite (like 4-1) over a smaller pocket pair, and ~55% favorite over any 2 overcards (like AK. AQ, etc). Since the big blind has a random hand (by definition), 99 is a favorite over nearly anything he may have.

To contrast- in a full table (9 or 10 handed) game, 99 is still a strong hand, especially if in late position as the first to enter the pot. However, if 99 is in late position facing a limper, a raise, a reraise, and a cold call, it is highly unlikely to be the best hand and should probably be mucked. Basically it is good until your opponents convince you it isn't. In Ab's case, there was too much money in the pot to lay it down- he essentially commited all his chips when he bet out on the turn.

[DarkDryad]

Long and short of it Bruce is that while he did loose this time a very good percentage of the time he would win. The guy sporting P44 did what we call getting lucky. If they started with the same hands  10 more times Id say AB would win 60-75% of those.

[Dark Vengeance]

Bruce, continuing to defend your position right now doesn't make you look like a savvy poker player, it makes you look like a stubborn jackass.

I made one point that he should have bet stronger pre-flop or before the turn to chase the guy away. He pointed out that it was limit play, fixed raises, and noted that he raised at every opportunity. It was my mistake for not noticing this in the first place, and I stand corrected.

Based on the situation, Ab made the right play, and lady luck was on the other guy's side. P99 is a strong hand in that situation. The fact that Ab was short stacked and pot committed by the time the guy made his set meant he couldn't really do much about it. Folding on the turn was not a reasonable alternative.

I don't get what you're trying to prove.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Abagadro]

If they started with the same hands  10 more times Id say AB would win 60-75% of those.

I ran a twodimes on this in case anyone was interested:

99 vs. 44 is a 81.59% to 17.59% favorite preflop.

On the flop of that hand I was a 90% to 10% favorite.

On the turn I was then a 95.45% to 4.55% dog.

[Margalis]

This is just plain silly. Some hands play themselves, especially in limit. This was one of those. There was no other way to play the hand. It's automatic.

[SirBruce]

Bruce, continuing to defend your position right now doesn't make you look like a savvy poker player, it makes you look like a stubborn jackass.

Thanks for your opinion.  Now, can we stop making the thread about me?  It's about Ab.  If he doesn't like my advice, he's free to ignore it.

Just to clarify, I don't think Ab was wrong for playing the hand.  I think he was wrong for playing it so agressively when no help came on the turn, and especially when he got raised.  I realize, he thought he'd be so short-stacked he have to get lucky to recover, but it's wrong to say the guy only won because he got lucly on the turn -- he could have had Qs, or perhaps holding a higher pair that he simply wasn't betting aggressively on.  (Ab admits the guy's play was wild.)

Bruce

[Abagadro]

The fun continues:

20/40 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 7711151)  - Mon Dec 06 23:32:24 EST 2004
Table $5000 Guaranteed Monday(151815) Table 13 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: MrGreenback7 (6170)
Seat 2: Gertoh1 (1730)
Seat 3: 1bdiddy (1060)
Seat 4: bbgates (1630)
Seat 5: Chris87 (525)
Seat 6: stardom20866 (660)
Seat 7: FabAb1 (890)
Seat 8: Hodari (2915)
Seat 9: randojohnson (925)
Seat 10: rowdyb07 (1735)
Gertoh1  posts small blind (10)
1bdiddy  posts big blind (20)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FabAb1 [ As, Ah ]
MrGreenback7: nh
bbgates calls (20)
randojohnson: u2
Chris87 folds.
stardom20866 folds.
FabAb1 raises (65) to 65
Hodari folds.
randojohnson folds.
rowdyb07 folds.
MrGreenback7 calls (65)
Gertoh1 folds.
1bdiddy folds.
bbgates calls (45)
** Dealing Flop ** :  [ Ac, 2c, 5s ]
bbgates checks.
FabAb1 bets (60)
MrGreenback7 calls (60)
bbgates calls (60)
** Dealing Turn ** :  [ 2h ]
bbgates checks.
FabAb1 checks.
MrGreenback7 checks.
** Dealing River ** :  [ 4d ]
bbgates bets (1505)
bbgates is all-In.
FabAb1 calls (765)
FabAb1 is all-In.
MrGreenback7 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1935 with FabAb1
Creating Side Pot 1 with $740 with bbgates
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1935 | Side Pot 1: 740
Board: [ Ac 2c 5s 2h 4d  ]
MrGreenback7 balance 6045, lost 125 (folded)
Gertoh1 balance 1720, lost 10 (folded)
1bdiddy balance 1040, lost 20 (folded)
bbgates balance 2675, bet 1630, collected 2675, net +1045 [ 2s 2d ] [ four of a kind, twos -- Ac,2s,2d,2c,2h ]
Chris87 balance 525, didn't bet (folded)
stardom20866 balance 660, didn't bet (folded)
FabAb1 balance 0, lost 890 [ As Ah ] [ a full house, Aces full of twos -- As,Ah,Ac,2c,2h ]
Hodari balance 2915, didn't bet (folded)
randojohnson balance 925, didn't bet (folded)
rowdyb07 balance 1735, didn't bet (folded)

[Jacob0883]

That was a slap in the face if I have ever seen one.   Actually, I would have broken my keyboard if that happened to me.   I would take a break because luck does not seem to be on your side right now.

[Grelf]

Where are you guys playing online primarily.

I've been playing over at partypoker, the funnymoney parts since I'm nowhere near good enough to be fucking about with real cash.

Played 4 tourneys tonight, 2nd place in 3 of them 1st in the last, and had a blast. Shocked I actually did as well as I did.

[Margalis]

That is terrible luck! But at least he got his money in when he was ahead. Rather lose that way than have the guy call with a set and then hit the quads. What kind of tourney was this? What is the "(Real Money)" part of the printout? Just a real (vs play?) buy-in?


I play on PokerStars. I hear the games are easier to beat at some other places but I like the interface and presentation and I play for fun, so yes that does matter to me. I've tried Ultimate Bet and I can't stand it.

As far as play money goes, never have touched it. When I first started I just played .05/.10 holdem and .04/.08 stud h/l. I'm actually doing that again right now, kind of an experiment to grind my way up from $5. I'm trying to really analyze holes in my game. (I just started last week, right now I'm at a whopping 11.50!) Trying to learn some more patience as well.

We should organize an f13 tourney sometime, it seems pretty easy to organize private tourneys on PokerStars.

[SirBruce]

Wow, sucked you right in on the turn.  Gotta have some balls to hold pocket twos so cooly, but it was pretty smart of him to do so once he saw the flop.  Checking on the turn, though... that's just not fair to you.  You didn't do anything wrong this hand; you just got beat by the odds.

Bruce

[WindupAtheist]

It doesn't matter if Bruce is being a dick because, you see...  Well remember when UO launched?  There were silver coins pictured on the box, and those didn't actually become part of the game for years.  Which is why it's okay for WW2OL to be teh suxx0rz.  So yeah.

[DarkDryad]

Im up for an F13 tourney. Im DarkDryad on stars and party poker.

[Paelos]

It's funny you posted that hand Ab, because that exact thing happened to me in my last home game. I had the pocket rockets and flop came over A44. We both played it cool to the river and then went all-in. I flip mine, he flips the pocket fours. It hurts, but that's why we have rebuys.

[Abagadro]

Once the flop hit I was going to the felt no matter what (and would have pre-flop too if anyone came over the top of me). I can't believe the guy played poket 2s UTG against a PF raiser.  He didn't "suck me in on the turn" because I would have called any bet there just like I did on the river. I have the highest full house and there is only one seriously unlikely hand that could beat me.  The turn two was actually MY money card as it protected me against a flush.  He just happend to hit a 1-outter miracle while playing a crappy hand out of position. It was a blind squirrel hand all the way. I wasn't all that upset about it as that is poker.

For whoever asked up there, this was a $7,5000 guaranteed no limit tourney with a 25$ +2$ tourney.

[Paelos]

Once the flop hit I was going to the felt no matter what (and would have pre-flop too if anyone came over the top of me). I can't believe the guy played poket 2s UTG against a PF raiser.

You are right on the first count, you would have taken that one to the house regardless of anything unless an obvious flush is sitting out there. As to the second count, I think your disbelief is unfounded. Your raise was 3x a relatively small BB that was basically 1/100th of the caller's stack. I call that everytime with any pockets at all on the chance you hit one on the flop. If you don't or there are significant overcards you toss it, but if you flop a low set you can milk it for serious cash.

EDIT: sorry looking at the big stack, it was 1/25th of the stack who won on the raise. The point is still vaild.

[Margalis]

I would not call a raise like that with 22, but I can see the logic, it's a trap hand with high implied odds that is easy to get rid of if it misses. He didn't play it that terribly. Of course he was going to call the flop - although I would probably have raised to chase out flush draws.

[Abagadro]

I muck 22 every time UTG that early in a tourney. You just won't win enough with it to be +EV and you can fool yourself into putting too much into the pot if no big cards come, especially after someone raises behind you and you have a caller before you as well.  It wasn't a truly horrendous play by him, but it wasn't a good one either.

Once the flop came down we were both going to the felt no matter what unless a non-board-pair club came on the turn and even then I would have a hard time laying down the set.

[SirBruce]

He didn't "suck me in on the turn" because I would have called any bet there just like I did on the river.

Really?  Even if he had gone all in?  Then you might have gone all in on the turn yourself before someone catches some help on the river.  It's rarely a good idea to play a hand without regard to the betting, but I guess that way you never get bluffed. :P

Bruce

[UD_Delt]

Sorry Bruce but you must be really bad at tournament hold-em. Everything you advised is the epitamy of playing weak-tight which is not a winning tournament style.

I'm not going to go into detail other than to advise anyone learning the game to completely ignore anything you have posted in this thread...



Edit: changed "poker" to "tournament hold-em"...

[Abagadro]

Bruce, what are you babbling about?

If he went all in on the turn I am happy happy happy and call in a heartbeat and also hope the other guy calls on a flush draw. In fact,  I checked the turn hoping someone would catch the flush or the straight on the river. There are almost no cards that can help anyone on the river against me.  I'll take the 46-1 shot that someone is drawing to quads every time if I am holding top boat. If I thought anyone would have called an all-in on the flop I would have done it there. I didn't because I wanted to extract more chips.  Quads are so unusual and unlikely, especially with that low of cards on the board, that there is no way to legitemately put someone on that hand.  With an Aces high boat I am all-in. If I lose to quads or a SF, so be it but you would need a blow-torch, two pairs of pliers and some hard pipe-hitting (fellows) to get me to fold or not put all my chips in with top boat. I will win 99% of the time here, if not more.

Based on what you have said in this thread, you would be what is known in tourney parlance as someone who sees "monsters under the bed," which is recipe for weak-tight, losing play.

[DarkDryad]

Bruce doesnt see monsters under the bed. He sees aliens with stainless steel teeth and prays for tenticle rape.
Shit ab at the point I saw an Aces high boat id be trying to borrow chips to bet :)

So when are we gonna set this tourney thingy up?