f13.net

This is in the WSOP sattelite on Empire. The top two finishers get a $12k package to the 2005 WSOP. I am FabAb1.


***** Hand History for Game 1261281670 *****
4000/8000 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (Limit) (Tournament 7658330)  - Sun Dec 05 02:29:25 EST 2004
Table $12,000 WSOP TV Star(141875) Table 1 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 1: KINGRUDDY (127622)
Seat 4: JackHerer7 (93121)
Seat 5: FabAb1 (32257)
FabAb1  posts small blind (2000)
KINGRUDDY  posts big blind (4000)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FabAb1 [ 9s, 9d ]
JackHerer7 folds.
FabAb1 raises (6000) to 8000
KINGRUDDY calls (4000)
** Dealing Flop ** :  [ 3h, Qc, 7d ]
FabAb1 bets (4000)
KINGRUDDY calls (4000)
** Dealing Turn ** :  [ 4h ]
FabAb1 bets (8000)
KINGRUDDY raises (16000) to 16000
FabAb1 raises (12257) to 20257
FabAb1 is all-In.
KINGRUDDY calls (4257)
** Dealing River ** :  [ 8d ]
Creating Main Pot with $64514 with FabAb1
** Summary **
Main Pot: 64514 |
Board: [ 3h Qc 7d 4h 8d  ]
KINGRUDDY balance 159879, bet 32257, collected 64514, net +32257 [ 4s 4d ] [ three of a kind, fours -- Qc,8d,4s,4d,4h ]
JackHerer7 balance 93121, didn't bet (folded)
FabAb1 balance 0, lost 32257 [ 9s 9d ] [ a pair of nines -- Qc,9s,9d,8d,7d ]

uh. Jesus. Do you want us to set up a paypal link for u?

Please don't mock my pain.

Sell your sigline as advertising space.

as in dollars? Real money? Not monopoly?

Sorry to see that Abagadro, but honestly you should have known better. From what I have seen in the old poker threads, you are a better poker player than that and you should have seen the trap coming. You should have definately been thinking he hit a set when he doubles your bet on the turn.

It has been a while since I have played poker, but you probably should have either raised bigger pre-flop, or pushed it hard on the flop to spook him and get him out before he can hit his set.

No, tournament money. The winner got $12,000 real money.

Well actually a $12,000 package to teh WSOP.  WSOP entry is 10 grand and then the other 2 g's are probably hotel, food and airfair.

I don't understand why you bet $8000 after the Turn when you only had 1 pair.  Were you just doubling your bet every round?  Seems to be if you wanted to project strength, you should have done it after the flop and make him think you have 3 Queens.

Bruce

He didn't have 2 pair. He had pocket 9s. That's 1 pair.

Though I think looking at it that Ab should have bet stronger pre-flop, or bet much stronger before the turn. Hindsight being 20/20 of course.

Once the turn hit, it was all over. Once he made his set, he was going to put Ab for a decision for his entire stack. And he had a big enough stack to do so without much worry.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

People. Look at the top of the HH. It was a LIMIT tourney. I bet all I could at every street. When he raised me on the turn, I had no choice at that point as I was completely pot committed and would only have had 1.5 BB left, three handed, which is basically being broke so it was do or die. If it had been NL I would have pushed preflop and likely been called as he had me covered 4-1 and only had to put in another 24k so result would have likely been the same.

I played the hand just fine and he got lucky with a 22-1 shot on the turn. Its the beauty of the big stack and the curse of the short stack.  It sucked big time although I did win 650 bucks when I was only into it for 11 as I had won a satellite to get into it in the first place.

By the way, can I borrow $639??

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

Yes, that's what I meant, and I corrected my previous post.  Question still stands.



I quote agree; he had Ab in a vice simply because of the cards.  But I think Ab should have limited the damage by not betting so strongly we had had almost nothing, and by folding when he got pressured.  Could his opponent have been bluffing, too?  Sure, but I wouldn't want to wager that much on a pair of 9s.

Bruce

Right.  You shouldn't have bet so much after the turn.  Maybe checked.  Or bet 4.  8 was too much.



Well, if you hadn't bet so much, you would have had lost less.  You shouldn't have pot committed on a pair of fucking nines.

 If it had been NL I would have pushed preflop and likely been called as he had me covered 4-1 and only had to put in another 24k so result would have likely been the same.



You can't blame it on the turn.  Look at the flop - there's a queen.  He could have had pocket anything greater than your nines, or numerous possible 3 of a kind.  When the turn came and you STILL didn't have ny help for your hand, you should have held back.  You didn't, and got caught.  Yes, he got lucky, because he actually only had pocket 4s, but you still should have played more more intelligently.

Bruce

Bruce, just stop. It is abundantly clear you don't know anything about poker (I can't "bet less on the turn" it is LIMIT poker you dope), so don't try to analyze the hand.

Poket 9s 3-handed that late in a tourney is an absolute monster and when you only have 4BB it is a no-brainer. Hell, Raymer won 5 million dollars with pocket 8s. One overcard is not going to scare me off and if he had a higher PP he would have 3-bet preflop.  Checking the turn is an invitation to get bluffed and I'm basically committed to this hand the minute I decide to play it pre-flop.  If anyone with actaul big-time tourney experience wants to criticize my play,  I would discuss it. You are not it.

Abagadro, just stop.  It is abundantly clear I know more about poker than you, since you lost your cash and I didn't.  As for it being LIMIT poker, I didn't realize you meant fixed-bet.  There are plenty of LIMIT games that simply cap how large a bet can be.  If you had been more clear, I would have analyzed the hand better.

So, now knowing that you had a fixed-bet, then you sholdn't have bet at all.  It was stupid to take that chance.



Wrong.  You need to understand there's a difference between "monster" strong hands, hands you can play under the right circumstances, and hands you shouldn't play at all.  Pocket 9s is never a "monster" hand.



Yes, that was your problem.  You were so committed you refused to acknowledge the cards on the table.  I agree, you were short stacked, but that's no excuse to go out on a bad play.  Yes, checking leaves you open to being bluffed, but that's okay -- every hand isn't a winner, and you can't play every hand to the hilt.



Then why are you here?  Go cry somewhere else.

Bruce

Ok big guy. Let's do this.  I will open a private table at Empire and we can each put $2000.00 in.  We play until one of us is broke. You can pick the format.

What do you say?

BTW, anyone who has played more than 10 hands of poker knows what 4000/8000 limit poker means as far as bets and frankly there is no such game (outside of your basement apparently) where there is just an upper "limit" to a bet but you can bet anything below that.

You made a good play, bad result. Bruce needs to shut the fuck up. (As usual) There are no spread bet fixed hold-em games anywhere online as far as I know, certainly not as a qualifier to a major tournament. When someone says limit you think fixed bet unless specifically told otherwise if you know ANYTHING about poker at all.

It was the right play, pot committed you have to push all in.

Strangely enough, in 10 minutes I am playing in a satellite where top 4 make it to the WPT in the Bahamas. I got there by placing top 2 in a free super-satellite.

I had pretty good luck all tourney and then when it was down to 3 people I lost my TT to 99 and was suddenly at 1/4 the 2nd place stack. Was able to battle back and finish top 2 - god I felt like screaming when the guy flopped a 9.

I totally suck at limit, I just can't do anything at all. Limit hold-em just takes some skill I don't have for whatever reason. (As opposed to stud where I can do fine)

Good luck in your WPT satellite Margalis.  My limit tourney game is coming a long a lot better of late. The key is to basically never limp or smooth call unless you are trapping. You basically need to be extremely patient and pound the crap out of good cards preflop.  I think Sklansky's Gap Concept works actually better in limit than NL so you may want to check that out.

After reading this thread, I'm pretty sure the only game of chance Bruce needs to be playing right now is Russian Roulette.

Update: Second hand of the tourney I lose to a rivered straight against my 2 pair for about half my chips. After the first hour I am looking pretty anemic, but the blinds are slower than in a super-satellite so I can still be a bit patient. Not enough in the pre-flop pots to make it worth it to gamble on an all in, just sitting back and breaking even...

Is this on stars? If so and you get deeper tell me what table you are at and I will come sweat you.

Yeah, I didn't notice it was limit poker because I am so used to you playing NL poker. You did the right thing and got caught between a rock and a hard place.

After you put in that much money you pretty much have to keep going on the hand even though you know you are behind. You are also completely right to say that pocket 9s is a monster hand in a 3 hand game.

Good play, bad results.

Well, I'm out.

I was able to double up and was in mediocre shape for a while, then hit a run of absolutely terrible cards. I was hovering at about 1/2 the average stack size for a while.

Finally, I get KK and raise all-in and get two callers. They both have AK. That's really one of the best scenarios I could hope for, I have no kings left but they are both drawing to only 2 aces.

Of course you can guess what showed up on the flop.

At that point if I had tripled up I would have been right back in it...got my money in getting 3-1 on it as a heavy favorite, just didn't work out.

That blows. I had a similar hand in last night's 5k guaranteed. 39 left, 30 get paid but I am a bit short. Guy goes all-in with about the same size stack, I call him with KK. He turns over AJo and the flop and turn are all bricks. I get this sense of dread and the river turns over the A.  Cruel game.

AJ is one of my least favorite hands. So easy to trap yourself and get outkicked. It's one of those hands that will either win you a small pot or lose you a big one. When I get AJ in early position of a NL tournament I often don't have any idea what to do.

I say you must really have an inferiority complex to be so desperate as to try to make yourself feel superior by beating me in one game of poker.  I guess my previous comments cut deeper than I expected.  Sorry for touching a nerve.

Bruce

Bruce, it's abundantly clear you are being a tool. Stfu, thx.

I actually just wanted to pick up an easy two grand.

Bruce this is moronic. Anyone who knows anything about poker knows you are full of shit. Abagadro and I are talking about qualifying for major tournaments and you don't even know the rules, yet your nonsensical advice somehow cuts to the bone...seriously it's hard to appear more stupid than you are right now. What's your football advice, hide the football up a cheerleader's skirt and have her prance to the end zone undetected for eleventy runs?

GENIUS!!!

Sorry about that dude, that's the harsh reality of limit that I can't stand sometimes. I really hate having my hands tied on bets that let people into the hand when I could easily dominate them after the flop. It especially pisses me off on flush draws when I've got top pair or something. If limit is your thing though, keep at it, you made it far in that one. Poker is a lifelong pursuit, not a quick hit. You'll learn a lot from getting that close in the long run.

I'm heading to Vegas this next weekend, and I'm looking to get in on a few tournaments. I only like No-limit, and I prefer freeze-outs or rebuys with limits. I don't want to get into a bankroll fight. Anybody have any recommendations on the best places for weekend tournaments in Vegas? I'd appreciate any input. Thanks.

But that's just it... I do know the rules, at least as Abagadro has related them.  Again, I have to explain to you that limit poker doesn't always mean every bet is fixed.  I can't help it if that's the only format you've played; there are many others.

So, knowing the rules as I do, I made my comment: check or fold.  He bet, and he lost, with a pair of nines.  My advice: don't bet so aggressively with nines when the turn offers you no help.

Now, you can disagree with that advice all you want -- but don't pretend like I don't know what the bet was, simply because I made a mistake before.  I'm not the one who lost.

Even I just wanted to make silly comments, I would quote The Gambler.

Bruce

Lets ignore Bruce now and see if you can answer my question.

Vegas, baby, Vegas!

I prefer no limit as well. I actually thought this was a no limit tourney when I qualified for it via a no limit satellite and was 10 hands into it (when I finally got a hand to play and went to raise it 4BB) that I realized it wasn't, but oh well.  I actually suspect the hand would have gone the same in NL considering the opponant and stack size. He really got absolutely lucky to get the seat. I actually had a larger stack than him with 5 players left. The guy not in the final hand had the big stack. Coming out of the break, three of the remaining 5 basically went all-in preflop and on the flop with 3-bets and the guy who busted me had AA. He had AA again two hands later and took some off the big stack to get his huge lead (he actually misplayed them badly or could have extracted quite a bit more).  3-handed with blinds that big it's basically a crap shoot and I came out the short-end.

As far as tourneys in Vegas, I know the Mandalay has them around noon on some days and I've heard the Orleans has some. I'd go post this question over on the B&M Cardroom board at twoplustwo.com. You will get answers from the locals.

It's so hard to ignore Bruce's complete idiocy. I guess that is what makes a good troll. The posts are so stupid that you almost can't walk away from them.

The offer of a heads-up match is still open.

The only thing I can understand about this thread (not knowing shit about poker) is that Aba lost a shitton of money and Bruce is being a dick.

My 2 cents:



You bet, he calls.  The only thing that can put you behind at this point would be a) a higher pocket pair, b) he paired a Q, c) he tripped 3 or 7. Had any of those been the case, the guy would have raised.  In limit poker, slow playing hands is usually a bad idea unless you know you can trap the person later.  The only other possibility I could see is if the guy had a straight draw... but that's pretty unlikely. Since he only called, you have to assume that he has either A X (X= 9, 10, J), K X, or a small pocket pair.  If he had two suited middle cards he would have folded.  

From his perspective, he puts you with a pair of Q's (or perhaps AX or KX) and decides to pay to see one more card or even thinks he has you with 4's.  This, in my opinion, is where limit poker kills you.  The other guy makes a STUPID call with a low pocket pair and it pays off.  



Here's my question: At this point he raised you.   What did you think he had?  He called with only one over card on the board (Q to your 9) on the previous bet.  When the 4 shows up, he raises.  In my mind he either a) hit a 4 for trips, b) was slow playing a pair of Q's, or c) bluffing.  I am guessing that you thought he was bluffing as that's the only scenario worth comitting.

In my opinion you got beat by a guy getting bailed out on the turn for making a stupid call.  This is the stuff that makes me crazy... I can only imagine how frustrated you must have been.

Ab, tough break. You played it fine- contrary to some of the more ignorant posts in this thread, 99 is indeed a fucking MONSTER hand 3 handed. With the stack sizes and blind sizes, you had no choice but to make a stand with this hand. He got lucky (but I probably play it the same way if I am in position). NL the money all would have gone in preflop, but the results would have been the same.

Anyone who doesn't know poker but would like to learn needs to ignore Bruce. Or listen to him and come sit at my table. Bring your wallet.  =)

Edited to add-



At that point, it doesn't matter what he thinks the opponent had- Ab is pot-commited. If he folds to the raise, he has enough chips for literally 3 more hands- he is the button next hand, then small blind (4000), then big blind (8000). He has to hope his opponent is playing a big A and thinks his hand is best.

Second edit- misread the turn betting- Ab had 20k left, not 12. Which gives him a couple more hands, but with such a tiny stack that he will get called down with anything.

Your analysis was the same as mine on the flop. If he has a naked Q, he is raising the flop. If he has a made set and is on a trap I am going to have to pay him off on the turn as I can't risk checking the turn becuase it 1) opens me up to a bluff and 2) could possibly give him a free card to river a higher pair and I CANNOT do that.  I basically have to bet the turn to protect what is still a good hand with only one overcard (and just a Q at that) on the board.  When I am raised on the turn when a brick like a 4 hits, my first thought is that he has something like A7 and is trying to push me off (this guy wasn't exactly a great player so I could see this move), so that is an auto-call/raise for me. Second posibility is he hit some shitty two pair like 74 or 34.  I have 8 outs against such a two pair and am seriously committed at this point, so this is an auto-call/raise. I The third possibility is that he has either hit or slowplayed a monster (set or Q7).  In this case I could fold to the turn raise, but this leaves me with a whopping 12k in chips left, three handed with 2k/4k blinds against stacks 8 times higher than mine. I would basically get to see the maximum of 6 hands that will be auto-called by the big stacks because I can't do them any damage. This is no good.  So I basically have to hope he is behind and trying to bully me or that I can hit my 9 on the river. By the turn raise I was totally hand-cuffed and really had no choice buy to pray for the river miracle that didn't come regardless of what I put him on.  I really feel I played the hand correctly and just lost to an unfortunate suck-out.

And Haemish, just to clarify, I didn't lose any money, I actually made a good pay-off on this tourney (65 times my buy-in), I just came up one finishing position short of a huge payoff in the form of a twelve thousand dollar seet in next year's World Series of POker.


EDIT: Wayabvpar: I agree I probably play the 4s the same way with position, for 1/2 price and with my covered 4x1 pre-flop.  The flop call is a bit questionable but he probably put me on A high or something, so can't really fault the guy when he had me covered by so much.

EDIT2: After rereading I realized i said I couldn't risk checking the flop when I meant checking the turn, although both are true. I fixed it.

A high is good there quite often (hell, K high is good there a lot), so any PP looks like a beast.  If he is wrong, he can get away from it on the turn and still not hurt himself too badly. That also discourages you from raising his blind with rag,  knowing he is going to defend.

Sorry about the hand, Ab.  I don't think his play was that awful, considering the stack sizes.  This is one of the reasons I pretty much only play limit ring games.  I like the fact that playing right will win me money.  When I make a play with a 60% chance at working and lose, I know I will have the opportunity to make that same play dozens of times over the weekend and come out ahead.  In a tourney, the first time it doesn't work you may be out or crippled.  Screw that.  Plus, you don't seem to get the superfun and superprofitable "7-way action every other hand" tables at tourneys like you do at many ring tables.  I also just plain suck at tourney play, which is probably the real reason.

Wayabvpar, you were right the first time on the turn betting. I obviously can't check the turn when a mesely 4 hits, so after my 8k bet I would havd had 12k left if I fold to the raise.  The betting was 4/8, so the blinds would only have been 2/4 which is where your math got off track.  Your analysis is bang on though.

Abagadro,

I hope that you don't think I was faulting you.  I just wanted to hear what was going through your mind during the hand... seeing how others analyze a situation often teaches me new things about play.   I stand by the fact that the guy won on a lucky turn and you were the victim of solid play but bad luck.

Ahh- this is what comes from reading hand histories sans coffee. Bad idea. Of course, I could have just been projecting- with my luck, the blinds would double just in time for my big blind!

Nebu,

Didn't take it badly at all and was just offering up my thought process. Hope it didn't come off as defensive.

Sorry to hear about that Ab. I was supposed to try and get in on one of the qualifiers this weekend but stuff came up. Dont worry about Bruce too much I see where hes comming from. He has yet to make the distiction between Holdem and say 5 card draw.If he spent any time in the game he would realize that P99 is a decent hand Heads up and something to bet the farm on specially when the other guy betting sheepishly.

Hell, I was playing Texas and Omaha Hold 'Em before it became cool in movies and TV.  But I was never enamored with it.  I admit, I've played No Limit more than anything else, but my advice regarding pocket nines still stands.

Bruce

What category of hand do you consider a sufficient starter in the SB with 3 left in a tourney with a 8BB stack when you are first into the pot?

stop, drop and roll.

Have you had much tournament experience, Bruce? That may be where the difference in opinion lies. In Ab's particular situation, the 9s were played correctly. Were it a normal ring game, he could safely lay them down to the turn raise in most cases (depending on the size of the pot).

9s are a favorite over any hand other than TT, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA preflop. They are a significant favorite (like 4-1) over a smaller pocket pair, and ~55% favorite over any 2 overcards (like AK. AQ, etc). Since the big blind has a random hand (by definition), 99 is a favorite over nearly anything he may have.

To contrast- in a full table (9 or 10 handed) game, 99 is still a strong hand, especially if in late position as the first to enter the pot. However, if 99 is in late position facing a limper, a raise, a reraise, and a cold call, it is highly unlikely to be the best hand and should probably be mucked. Basically it is good until your opponents convince you it isn't. In Ab's case, there was too much money in the pot to lay it down- he essentially commited all his chips when he bet out on the turn.

Long and short of it Bruce is that while he did loose this time a very good percentage of the time he would win. The guy sporting P44 did what we call getting lucky. If they started with the same hands  10 more times Id say AB would win 60-75% of those.

Bruce, continuing to defend your position right now doesn't make you look like a savvy poker player, it makes you look like a stubborn jackass.

I made one point that he should have bet stronger pre-flop or before the turn to chase the guy away. He pointed out that it was limit play, fixed raises, and noted that he raised at every opportunity. It was my mistake for not noticing this in the first place, and I stand corrected.

Based on the situation, Ab made the right play, and lady luck was on the other guy's side. P99 is a strong hand in that situation. The fact that Ab was short stacked and pot committed by the time the guy made his set meant he couldn't really do much about it. Folding on the turn was not a reasonable alternative.

I don't get what you're trying to prove.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

I ran a twodimes on this in case anyone was interested:

99 vs. 44 is a 81.59% to 17.59% favorite preflop.

On the flop of that hand I was a 90% to 10% favorite.

On the turn I was then a 95.45% to 4.55% dog.

This is just plain silly. Some hands play themselves, especially in limit. This was one of those. There was no other way to play the hand. It's automatic.

Thanks for your opinion.  Now, can we stop making the thread about me?  It's about Ab.  If he doesn't like my advice, he's free to ignore it.

Just to clarify, I don't think Ab was wrong for playing the hand.  I think he was wrong for playing it so agressively when no help came on the turn, and especially when he got raised.  I realize, he thought he'd be so short-stacked he have to get lucky to recover, but it's wrong to say the guy only won because he got lucly on the turn -- he could have had Qs, or perhaps holding a higher pair that he simply wasn't betting aggressively on.  (Ab admits the guy's play was wild.)

Bruce

The fun continues:

That was a slap in the face if I have ever seen one.   Actually, I would have broken my keyboard if that happened to me.   I would take a break because luck does not seem to be on your side right now.

Where are you guys playing online primarily.

I've been playing over at partypoker, the funnymoney parts since I'm nowhere near good enough to be fucking about with real cash.

Played 4 tourneys tonight, 2nd place in 3 of them 1st in the last, and had a blast. Shocked I actually did as well as I did.

That is terrible luck! But at least he got his money in when he was ahead. Rather lose that way than have the guy call with a set and then hit the quads. What kind of tourney was this? What is the "(Real Money)" part of the printout? Just a real (vs play?) buy-in?


I play on PokerStars. I hear the games are easier to beat at some other places but I like the interface and presentation and I play for fun, so yes that does matter to me. I've tried Ultimate Bet and I can't stand it.

As far as play money goes, never have touched it. When I first started I just played .05/.10 holdem and .04/.08 stud h/l. I'm actually doing that again right now, kind of an experiment to grind my way up from $5. I'm trying to really analyze holes in my game. (I just started last week, right now I'm at a whopping 11.50!) Trying to learn some more patience as well.

We should organize an f13 tourney sometime, it seems pretty easy to organize private tourneys on PokerStars.

Wow, sucked you right in on the turn.  Gotta have some balls to hold pocket twos so cooly, but it was pretty smart of him to do so once he saw the flop.  Checking on the turn, though... that's just not fair to you.  You didn't do anything wrong this hand; you just got beat by the odds.

Bruce

It doesn't matter if Bruce is being a dick because, you see...  Well remember when UO launched?  There were silver coins pictured on the box, and those didn't actually become part of the game for years.  Which is why it's okay for WW2OL to be teh suxx0rz.  So yeah.

Im up for an F13 tourney. Im DarkDryad on stars and party poker.

It's funny you posted that hand Ab, because that exact thing happened to me in my last home game. I had the pocket rockets and flop came over A44. We both played it cool to the river and then went all-in. I flip mine, he flips the pocket fours. It hurts, but that's why we have rebuys.

Once the flop hit I was going to the felt no matter what (and would have pre-flop too if anyone came over the top of me). I can't believe the guy played poket 2s UTG against a PF raiser.  He didn't "suck me in on the turn" because I would have called any bet there just like I did on the river. I have the highest full house and there is only one seriously unlikely hand that could beat me.  The turn two was actually MY money card as it protected me against a flush.  He just happend to hit a 1-outter miracle while playing a crappy hand out of position. It was a blind squirrel hand all the way. I wasn't all that upset about it as that is poker.

For whoever asked up there, this was a $7,5000 guaranteed no limit tourney with a 25$ +2$ tourney.

You are right on the first count, you would have taken that one to the house regardless of anything unless an obvious flush is sitting out there. As to the second count, I think your disbelief is unfounded. Your raise was 3x a relatively small BB that was basically 1/100th of the caller's stack. I call that everytime with any pockets at all on the chance you hit one on the flop. If you don't or there are significant overcards you toss it, but if you flop a low set you can milk it for serious cash.

EDIT: sorry looking at the big stack, it was 1/25th of the stack who won on the raise. The point is still vaild.

I would not call a raise like that with 22, but I can see the logic, it's a trap hand with high implied odds that is easy to get rid of if it misses. He didn't play it that terribly. Of course he was going to call the flop - although I would probably have raised to chase out flush draws.

I muck 22 every time UTG that early in a tourney. You just won't win enough with it to be +EV and you can fool yourself into putting too much into the pot if no big cards come, especially after someone raises behind you and you have a caller before you as well.  It wasn't a truly horrendous play by him, but it wasn't a good one either.

Once the flop came down we were both going to the felt no matter what unless a non-board-pair club came on the turn and even then I would have a hard time laying down the set.

Really?  Even if he had gone all in?  Then you might have gone all in on the turn yourself before someone catches some help on the river.  It's rarely a good idea to play a hand without regard to the betting, but I guess that way you never get bluffed. :P

Bruce

Sorry Bruce but you must be really bad at tournament hold-em. Everything you advised is the epitamy of playing weak-tight which is not a winning tournament style.

I'm not going to go into detail other than to advise anyone learning the game to completely ignore anything you have posted in this thread...



Edit: changed "poker" to "tournament hold-em"...

Bruce, what are you babbling about?

If he went all in on the turn I am happy happy happy and call in a heartbeat and also hope the other guy calls on a flush draw. In fact,  I checked the turn hoping someone would catch the flush or the straight on the river. There are almost no cards that can help anyone on the river against me.  I'll take the 46-1 shot that someone is drawing to quads every time if I am holding top boat. If I thought anyone would have called an all-in on the flop I would have done it there. I didn't because I wanted to extract more chips.  Quads are so unusual and unlikely, especially with that low of cards on the board, that there is no way to legitemately put someone on that hand.  With an Aces high boat I am all-in. If I lose to quads or a SF, so be it but you would need a blow-torch, two pairs of pliers and some hard pipe-hitting (fellows) to get me to fold or not put all my chips in with top boat. I will win 99% of the time here, if not more.

Based on what you have said in this thread, you would be what is known in tourney parlance as someone who sees "monsters under the bed," which is recipe for weak-tight, losing play.

Bruce doesnt see monsters under the bed. He sees aliens with stainless steel teeth and prays for tenticle rape.
Shit ab at the point I saw an Aces high boat id be trying to borrow chips to bet :)

So when are we gonna set this tourney thingy up?

Holy christ, I am not even as weak tight as Bruce. I probably would have played that hand quite similar to Abagadro. In fact due to these new posts I deposited 50 bucks back into Poker Stars and it is up to just over 90 now after a few tournaments.

I tend to stick with $5 or $10 SnG's, but maybe I should switch over to micro/low limit ring games. I am sure I could make some decent money there as long as I kept my wits about me.

About the only thing I might have done is made a slightly bigger raise pre-flop, perhaps up around 100-120. Of course that might force everyone out right there, but it might also get someone holding a weak pair to fold out while keeping in people who have something like KQ, QJ, etc. A larger bet on the flop might have convinced him you had the top set, but even then he might have stuck around. Naturally once the turn hits both of you are sticking around until the very end.

I can understand the guy's play, sometimes it is too easy to get caught up in thinking about positions. It looks to be fairly early in the game (based on the 10/20 blinds), so it isn't costing him too much to look at the flop. If he hits it on the flop he can stick around and if he doesn't then it is easy to lay it down. I would probably take a look at the flop for the raise you put up even under the gun, but I tend to play a little loose sometimes. I never would have played that hand later in the game when the blinds (and raises) were higher, but I think for the 10/20, 15/30 and possibly 25/50 range it isn't that bad of a play.

I agree with Madman, it was simply a looser play than normal. Most people that are tight players throw away pairs 77 and under early on. I do it quite frequently. However, sometimes for agressive play you can come out swinging with a 10x BB bet if you want to collect the limpers. It depends on the table really. That's best for passive groups. There a lot of ways Aces get cracked, if there are enough bets already on the table i simply collect what's mine pre-flop. If someone is stupid enough to call I double up.

I thought about my flop bet being too small, but lately every time I raise above 4BB I get everyone to fold which is a disaster with AA.  I doubt a bigger flop bet pushes him off a set.

Bruce stop being retarded. The 2 was the best possible turn card Ab could hit other than an Ace. When you have a great hand, you try to extract maximum value. There was NO river card possible that would allow anyone to catch up other than another 4 of a kind for somebody. YOU WANT SOMEONE TO CATCH HELP. With a hand like that you are hoping someone can make a higher two pair, a mid set, or flush, a straight.

If you are way ahead in a hand (or think you are) you want to give people a chance to make something. That's how you extract value for your hand.

Jesus, Ab.  Find another hobby.  I hear shuffleboard is soothing.

But at least you got the bad beat bonus, right?   Right?

This hobby is quite profitable (I'm up around 18k in the last two years playing LL and small buy-in tourneys).

I only posted these two hands because of the brutality of the loss for the first and the wild beat on the second (if I had played that at the casino I usually play at I would have won 50% of the bad beat jackpot).

Probably no bet would push him off a set, including an all-in. He could easily think you have AK or AQ.

I tend to do better in tournaments than cash tables because I concentrate harder. I really pay attention to my opponents and the fixed duration really helps. I find at cash tables my attention will wander and I get sloppy.

Woops, I meant thought about my PRE-flop bet being too small.  On the flop I was trying to get some money into the pot and  I agree nothing was moving him off his set.

If you do this without regard to the size of the pot, you are screwing yourself longterm. You flop a set about 11% of the time; if the pot isn't giving you at least 5 or 6 to 1 on your preflop bet (you can take lower odds because of the extra chips you will likely pick up post flop if your hand hits), then you are costing yourself money.

In a tournament, every chip is valuable (since you don't get to play anymore if you run out), so playing without regard to the size of the pot is reckless.



There is exactly 1 hand that Ab has to fear here- the odds that his opponent holds the ONLY HAND (out of 169 possible starters) that beats him are astronomical. I go broke here every single time; the VAST majority of the time this hand is a winner.

No, I'm really more tight-agressive.  But agressive doesn't mean going all the way with every hand.  When you've learned that, your play will improve.

Bruce

Anyone know if it's possible to get a hold of the WRGPT software?

I think it's time to put the electronic money where the electronic mouth is and get a f13 tournament rolling with the power of email.

What are you babbling about?  I too said I would have played to hand like Ab.  But I wouldn't have been willing to go all the way just on the flop, as Ab said he would have.

Bruce

ROFL!

Bruce, your idea of waiting for the mortal nuts before risking any chips will get you absolutely destroyed against anyone who has a clue on how poker is played.

I am all for an F13 tourney- we can pick a time and all pile into an SnG. If everyone is waiting and ready, just wait for the first 'new' game to start and all pile in ASAFP. I only play on PokerStars these days- I pulled the rest of my money out of my account on Party Poker because their shitty CS department pissed me off.

No shit, sherlock.  Too bad that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

But fine, play it your way -- always play the odds and never concern yourself with the other guy's play.  See how far you get.

Bruce

Can you set up private tables on stars? I don't play on there, but have an account that I can dump some money in if I need to.

I'd be in, I'd lose, but I'll play for fun.

I guess I'd get destroyed as often as Ab, then, since I said I'd play the hand like he did.  Er, except for a hypothetical situation, wherein I wouldn't have lost so much money.  But, sure, believe what you want.  I should have known better than to think someone crying about their losses on a board would actually want some help rather than an ego-stroking, "No, you did everything perfect, you should be A-Number-One!"

Bruce

I believe that Stars support can grant a user the ability to set up private tournaments- make a deposit and email them to see what it takes. I would do it, but I am at work for another 6 hours. Bleah.

Dont remember but I'll check it out tonight and well set up a time. I cashed out not to long ago but I'll be glad to bump a few bucks in there to be able to play. So put me on the list.

I'm not crying or asking for help you dumbass. These are BAD BEAT stories for everyone to enjoy.  There really isn't much to say about them. The idiocy of your posts has been what has generated the discussion.

The last bloggers tourney was on Stars. I'm pretty sure at this point they will allow anyone to set up a private tourney. It just takes a phone call.

I guess I'm going to have to get on the ball and finish off one of my bonuses so I can pull out some money from either Party or UB. My Stars account is currently empty.

Fuck the BCS ... what I really want to watch this year is Abagadro and Bruce heads-up in a Caveman Lawyer vs. "Tight Aggressive" Poker Thunderdome.

Please post the date and time here so we can all watch. I'm dead serious.

My $2k heads-up offer still stands.

It's funny, because when I first responded I said that I always raise a standard amount pre-flop. Then I re-read your post and it said on the flop.

But yeah, if I am coming in for a raise it's always the same amount, adjusted upwards for number of callers.

Here, I've found something to relieve the tension while playing poker.

http://uk.download.yahoo.com/ne/fu/attachments/bubblewrap.swf

Ok that has to be one of the coolest pages Ive seen in a while.

Jumped into the $2 multi on Stars last night while playing some SnGs with a couple of buddies. Held a TON of cards, withstood more than a few bad beats, and ended up in 8th place. If 2 horrible rivers don't eviscerate me earlier, I would have won it going away. 'Twas fun, however.

Haha, I just started a little $5 SnG a few minutes ago and this is the very first hand dealt. It couldn't be any more perfect.



I couldn't believe it when she reraised me. I had her pegged on the 2 when she came out with the 100 bet and when she reraised I just had to go all in. I couldn't believe it when she actually called, I was damn near orgasmic.

I've won a couple of SnG's, but since Saturday I'm going nowhere in the MTT. I think I may be on a bit of a weird gun-shy semi-tilt where I am only playing uber-tight starters but then overplaying them when I get them.  Time for a break from tourneys perhaps.


EDIT: Madman, nice hand. But weren't you worried about the quads? /sarcasm

You know I think that long break I had was really good for me. I am playing a bit better hands and I am playing them more instinctively. Overall I think I am playing slightly better than I did before, but not by all that much.

You know I was thinking about quads when I went all in, but there is no way in hell that it was going to stop me.

Of course I spoke a bit too soon. I just went up against  AA with AKc  and of course lost. It wasn't too bad of a hit, but I let the small stack back into the game. The small stack went all in first and I pushed all in to isolate him, in total I probably lost about 600 or so on the hand, I will have to check it later. The bitch of it was 2 clubs hit on the flop and naturally I couldn't catch another club.

edit - Haha, I just got hit by another person with AA. This time I had AQo in middle position and raised, the button (small stack), reraised all in for about 300 more than my raise. I naturally had to call and naturally I lost.

edit 2 - I swear to god, I can't fucking buy a flush. I have had a 4 flush on the flop at least 5-6 times this SnG and I haven't hit a single flush.

Yes, as soon as she re-raised you should have mucked it, you fool.

I took a break for a while, before I began my "grind up from $5 experiment." Since that break ended I've done quite well at MTTs. One of the reasons is that I've been abusing positional advantage much more strongly. From the first few seats I'll often fold AJ at a full table, depending on the table. TJ Cloutier said it was ok, and it seems to work.

Heh. I flopped quad Qs last night, and had a guy bet into me twice. If I can dig the hand history up I will post it...I was giggling like a fool.

Woot, broke outta my slump. 3rd in the 5k gauranteed tonight. If I would have folded the last hand (i was WAAAAY short) I woulda snuck into second as the huge stack hit a set against the 2nd stack's AQ. I was first into the pot though with KJ.  Nice $534 payday on a 20+2 buyin.

Here was the hand:



***** Hand History for Game 1281873296 *****
3000/6000 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 7777344)  - Fri Dec 10 01:08:07 EST 2004
Table Thursday $5000 Guaranteed(151881) Table 1 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 4: FabAb1 (12068)
Seat 6: Pinneo (40690)
Seat 9: BoratDances (216242)
Pinneo  posts small blind (1500)
BoratDances  posts big blind (3000)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FabAb1 [ Kh, Js ]
FabAb1 raises (12068) to 12068
FabAb1 is all-In.
Pinneo calls (10568)
FabAb1: time to double me up boys
BoratDances calls (9068)
Creating Main Pot with $36204 with FabAb1
** Dealing Flop ** :  [ 8s, 5s, 6h ]
FabAb1: or tripple
MisterAndrew: fab come on horse!
Pinneo bets (28622)
Pinneo is all-In.
BoratDances calls (28622)
** Dealing Turn ** :  [ Qd ]
MisterAndrew: GO FAB!
** Dealing River ** :  [ Ac ]
Creating Side Pot 1 with $57244 with Pinneo
** Summary **
Main Pot: 36204 | Side Pot 1: 57244 |
Board: [ 8s 5s 6h Qd Ac  ]
FabAb1 balance 0, lost 12068 [ Kh Js ] [ high card ace -- Ac,Kh,Qd,Js,8s ]
Pinneo balance 0, lost 40690 [ Ah Qc ] [ two pairs, aces and queens -- Ah,Ac,Qc,Qd,8s ]
BoratDances balance 269000, bet 40690, collected 93448, net +52758 [ 6c 6s ] [ three of a kind, sixes -- Ac,Qd,6c,6s,6h ]

Ab, seriously man, given your luck nowadays, you may want to just go ahead and consider it. My suggestion:

(http://kaos.m0f0.net/cstrike/images/glock18.jpg)

Yknow, just in case.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

Mine was not a bitch post. I was veeeeeeery happy to take third there. I was shortstacked even when there were 25 people left (4k in chips with 500/1000 blinds). I was uber patient and waited, and waited, and waited. Trippled up with QQ against AQ & AK. Got to the final table and had the 2nd lowest stack. I was trying to wait out the lowest because the money doubles from 10th to 9th. But the big stack just started crushing everyone so I just sat back and made money doing nothing. The larger stacks were pretty stupid in tangling with the big stack and he also caught a major run of hands.  I had little chance of moving up to second or taking on a stack 20 times mine, so I think my KJ hand was just fine under the circumstances. I doubt that the AQ goes all in on the flop if I wasn't all-in although it really wasn't a smart play for him to go in at that point. It would have been better for him to wait for the big stack to take me out instead of risking me winning the main and the big taking the side therefore putting him in 3rd.  If he really wanted to isolate he should have pushed pre-flop although big probably calls anyway.


EDIT: Realized you may be referring to that I was third. This wasn't a sattelite like my initial post in this tread where the top two got a trip and third was SOL. This was a straight up money tourney so third is bueno.

Chip leader had to love flopping a set when he had both of you all in! Nice work Ab. How many starters in that tourney? ~350 or so?

I am actually on a bit of a run in multis- have made the money in my past 3 attempts. They just take so damned long that I can't play them as often as I would like.

I still think we should set a time and all jump into a SnG together. Doesn't have to be for big money- bragging rights are much more valuable!

Ya, I bet he was jumping up and down when that guy bet all-in into his set.  I think there were 269 to start.  I'm thinking about putting some money back over into Party to try to get a better payoff, but going up against 1200 definitely ups the luck factor. The Empire guarnateed tourneys have been going pretty well for me because they have a maneagable field of around 250-350 most of the time. I'll probably play in the 10k tonight which has a nice low 25+2 buyin, one of the best overlays they offer.

Beware of Party- I have seen proof (http://www.billrini.com/archives/001169.html) that it is rigged.

That is awesome.

Great post. Hahaha That was great.

Oh btw on the getting a poker game going thing. Im In lets try for sometime the week after xmas that way many of us will be vacationing and wont have to get up for work and whatnot.

Sounds good to me. Been really busy the past week or so.