[3.1] Ulduar Preview - NOW WITH PATCH NOTES

[Sjofn]

Yeah, it's pretty annoying seeing almost every DK holding a Titansteel Destroyer along with every ret pallie and in every other hand of a DPS warrior.  It's even more annoying being one of them.  I've seen a two handed weapon drop once (it was the axe) and it went to the DK tank.  I'd pay double the material costs just for a different weapon model.

Or hell, how about adding them to the hero badge vendor (along with a goddamn unholy dps sigil) and some other useful gear. 

I just want an axe. It doesn't even have to be that axe.  Well, it would be nice if it didn't have armor penetration on it.  I DON'T NEED THAT SHIT.

I got the Heigan mace pretty early on (I used the Tuskar polearm to tank before that  ) and at least my DK is human so I could lie to myself and say it's OK, I have mace expertise. But not using a 2h sword (which is how *I* envisioned myself tanking) annoys the crap out of me!

[Merusk]

Armageddon has dropped in my 25-man 3 times so far.

Each time it has gone to a PUG'd character.  I'm getting pissed and remember why I prefer DKP.

[Nevermore]

I never understood why they did this.  Didn't they originally give dual wield to DKs to offset the lack of shields?  Well, I guess we look different while tanking. 

Offensive parry tanks.  You've got a defensive shield tank (paladin), defensive parry tank (druid), offensive shield tank (warrior), so an offensive parry tank (death knight) just made sense. 

Wat?

[K9]

Or you know, roll a fucking death knight. They have the ability. Blizzard is perfectly happy to let DKs DW if they want. Get over it already.

I'm glad they unnerfed DW to the point where you'll still see it. Having it be THE way to DPS was bad, but nerfing it as hard as they initially did was also bad. On the other hand ... my beautiful, beautiful frost tank spec. I really don't know where I am going to be left at the end of all this. 

Shamans can use 2h axes and maces, but you don't see any of them doing so in any serious environment. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard squeezes DKs back into using 2h weapons and marginalises DW much like they did (in the opposite direction) with Shamen.

[Nevermore]

So you're saying that every single 'serious' Shaman is deep Enhance?

[Hindenburg]

He's saying that every single serious enhance shaman is DW. But you kew that.

[Nevermore]

I suspected that but I wanted clarification, since it's comparing apples to oranges.  Shaman who don't spec Enhance can't even dual wield at all, but somehow we can equate Enhance Shaman (one tree) performing better with DW with forcing *all* DKs to use 2H regardless of spec?  Does not follow.

[Soulflame]

If you are not enhance, you're either resto or elemental.  In which case, you're better off using 1H+shield/offhand, because no 2H is comparable to the combination of 2 one handed pieces of gear.  At least, not to my knowledge.

[Merusk]

If you are not enhance, you're either resto or elemental.  In which case, you're better off using 1H+shield/offhand, because no 2H is comparable to the combination of 2 one handed pieces of gear.  At least, not to my knowledge.

Which is why DKs got such big buffs to their stats with Unholy Rune, and their other +str abilities.. which are now getting nerfed.  So yeah, Dual Wield will still be the way to go if you're serious, to get the extra stats.    Evidently Berserking, a normal old enchant, is now better than Runeforging your weapon until you're near fully-equipped in Nax-25 gear.

Stupidity.

[Phred]

If you are not enhance, you're either resto or elemental.  In which case, you're better off using 1H+shield/offhand, because no 2H is comparable to the combination of 2 one handed pieces of gear.  At least, not to my knowledge.

Which is why DKs got such big buffs to their stats with Unholy Rune, and their other +str abilities.. which are now getting nerfed.  So yeah, Dual Wield will still be the way to go if you're serious, to get the extra stats.    Evidently Berserking, a normal old enchant, is now better than Runeforging your weapon until you're near fully-equipped in Nax-25 gear.

Stupidity.

What's the deal with old enchants anyway? Back when they released BC I heard a ton of moaning about them nerfing crusader hard but haven't heard anything about berserking or mongoose getting the bat treatment. I've even seen people looking for mongoose enchants. So, did they skip nerfing the hell out of those enchants?

[Ingmar]

If you are not enhance, you're either resto or elemental.  In which case, you're better off using 1H+shield/offhand, because no 2H is comparable to the combination of 2 one handed pieces of gear.  At least, not to my knowledge.

I concur, although it is conceivable that the new staff enchants could make staves a possibly viable choice for PVE resto or elemental shamans. If you could find one without spirit on it.

[Ingmar]

If you are not enhance, you're either resto or elemental.  In which case, you're better off using 1H+shield/offhand, because no 2H is comparable to the combination of 2 one handed pieces of gear.  At least, not to my knowledge.

Which is why DKs got such big buffs to their stats with Unholy Rune, and their other +str abilities.. which are now getting nerfed.  So yeah, Dual Wield will still be the way to go if you're serious, to get the extra stats.    Evidently Berserking, a normal old enchant, is now better than Runeforging your weapon until you're near fully-equipped in Nax-25 gear.

Stupidity.

What's the deal with old enchants anyway? Back when they released BC I heard a ton of moaning about them nerfing crusader hard but haven't heard anything about berserking or mongoose getting the bat treatment. I've even seen people looking for mongoose enchants. So, did they skip nerfing the hell out of those enchants?

Mongoose is still pretty good as a tank enchant; you won't see many other people looking for it. The new parry enchant will probably mean that it will just be druids who still want mongoose, and GC stated today that they're looking at adding some more attractive bear enchant(s).

[Rendakor]

So the other shoe dropped on DKs, this time landing on the DK tanks. 

Edit: Though if I'm reading the notes correctly, it looks like they unnerfed a couple of the nicer DW talents, Blood Caked Blades and Necrosis.

How do those look un-nerfed? BCB now has a 3s delay to go off, and Necrosis can't trigger on the offhand at all. Those look like nerfs to me.

[Fordel]

Blood-Caked Blade proc limitation has been removed. (Old - This effect cannot occur more often than once every 3 sec.)

Necrosis now affects all your auto attacks. (Old - Only Main-Hand)

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=42702.0

[K9]

I suspected that but I wanted clarification, since it's comparing apples to oranges.  Shaman who don't spec Enhance can't even dual wield at all, but somehow we can equate Enhance Shaman (one tree) performing better with DW with forcing *all* DKs to use 2H regardless of spec?  Does not follow.

It's not a bad comparison really. You have several situations where a class or spec has the option to DW or use a 2H weapon and Blizz has arbitrarily structured the tree to significantly bias one over the other, DW being the only sensible option for Enhance Shamen, 2H being the only sensible option for Arms warriors. Yet in the past 2h enhance and DW arms were not unheard of. The upshot of this is, if Blizz decides that they want to softly kill of DK DW they could without much problem, or constrain it to be only viable with one of the trees.

If anything we need more 2h-users. There's no shortage of demand for 1h swords, axes and maces.

[Rendakor]

Blood-Caked Blade proc limitation has been removed. (Old - This effect cannot occur more often than once every 3 sec.)

Necrosis now affects all your auto attacks. (Old - Only Main-Hand)

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=42702.0

Ahh thanks; I didn't know there were updated patch notes. I had just been using the ones on Blizzard's official PTR site.

[Sheepherder]

If anything we need more 2h-users. There's no shortage of demand for 1h swords, axes and maces.

Wat?

Death Knight	Death Knight
Hunter	Hunter
Druid	Druid
Rogue	Warrior
Shaman	Paladin

[Fabricated]

With the DW nerf coming to DKs the only people using one-handed swords/maces/axes will be plate tanks, rogues, and enhancement shaman.

[Dren]

From my Enh Shaman's perspective, the reason DW is necessary is that to be in that tree, you would be wasting too many points in talents that benefit from DW.  The tree is made for it obviously.  You want to have as many weapon swings as possible to get your chance at proccing special talents as much as possible.  It not only helps your shaman but the groups they are with.

[Vash]

From my Enh Shaman's perspective, the reason DW is necessary is that to be in that tree, you would be wasting too many points in talents that benefit from DW.  The tree is made for it obviously.  You want to have as many weapon swings as possible to get your chance at proccing special talents as much as possible.  It not only helps your shaman but the groups they are with.

The point is though, that back in the glory days of shamans (if you pvp'd at all anyway), they couldn't duel wield at all, it was a big 2h with WF and that's it (except for occasionally swapping to 1h and shield for defensive purposes).  Then came TBC with the revamped enhancement tree and it's pretty much been DW or go home since.  There were and still likely are a lot of shamans who enjoyed using 2h weapons back then and are still miffed that it's been left to the wayside and the whole tree pretty much designed with only DW in mind now.

[WindupAtheist]

Dual wielding is pretty much a retard magnet, too.

[Nevermore]

I hear they make you take an IQ test before you can pick up a two-handed sword.  True story.

[Shrike]

I hear they make you take an IQ test before you can pick up a two-handed sword.  True story.

Obviously, it's not working, since the deathtard population on Whisperwind is higher than ever. Although, granted, the most clueless of that unhappy lot do tend to dual wield.

[Lantyssa]

Dual wielding is pretty much a retard magnet, too.

Take your two-hander and shove it where the sun don't shine.

[Dren]

Dual wielding is pretty much a retard magnet, too.

That's true, but I find on both my Enh Shaman and my rogue that designing gear with DW'ing is more interesting than my other alts.  I enjoy all of the tailoring of the right weapon to the right enchantment, to the right hand to put it in, etc...

A 2 hander just cuts your choices in half and shields and off-hand (non-melee) items are just....boring.  DW just adds a bit more to the whole design.

DW'ing 2handers on my warrior (when Fury) is the bees knees y'all.  It soothes the inner geek in me.

[Hindenburg]

Dual wielding is pretty much a retard magnet, too.

Take your two-hander and shove it where the sun don't shine.

If you wanted to be a special snowflake, you should've rolled a female dorf. 

[Ingmar]

Dual wielding is pretty much a retard magnet, too.

That's true, but I find on both my Enh Shaman and my rogue that designing gear with DW'ing is more interesting than my other alts.  I enjoy all of the tailoring of the right weapon to the right enchantment, to the right hand to put it in, etc...

A 2 hander just cuts your choices in half and shields and off-hand (non-melee) items are just....boring.  DW just adds a bit more to the whole design.

DW'ing 2handers on my warrior (when Fury) is the bees knees y'all.  It soothes the inner geek in me.

It also cuts your weapon enchant costs in half. 

Actually for that reason I am pretty strongly considering making arms my pve dps offspec on my main, assuming it gets the buffs that have been promised.

[Lantyssa]

If you wanted to be a special snowflake, you should've rolled a female dorf. 

I don't need any help being a special snowflake...  and sometimes it's best I blend in with the crowd.

[Hindenburg]

If you wanted to be a special snowflake, you should've rolled a female dorf. 

I don't need any help being a special snowflake...  and sometimes it's best I blend in with the crowd.

I could swear that, in another thread, you claimed to be prepared.
Seems that Illidan was right. 

[Nevermore]

Stalker.

[Sjofn]

The point is though, that back in the glory days of shamans (if you pvp'd at all anyway), they couldn't duel wield at all, it was a big 2h with WF and that's it (except for occasionally swapping to 1h and shield for defensive purposes).  Then came TBC with the revamped enhancement tree and it's pretty much been DW or go home since.  There were and still likely are a lot of shamans who enjoyed using 2h weapons back then and are still miffed that it's been left to the wayside and the whole tree pretty much designed with only DW in mind now.

And honestly, those shaman that want to use a 2h are right to be miffed. :P

I hear they make you take an IQ test before you can pick up a two-handed sword.  True story.

That's why Midgard was the smartest realm! 

[Paelos]

So, now that they've been doing testing on Ulduar for a while, have any of yall jumped in there and given it a go?

[Merusk]

No, but I should. I'm just skeered of what my poor little DK might have become.

[Paelos]

I've really had almost no desire to log into the game these days. Every time I do it's more ppl asking me to run heroics, and I'm sick of those. Also, I basically have everything from Naxx except 213 bracers and the T7 helm, neither of which I really give a shit about enough to keep running the place so I can kill Kel'Thuzad again.

I really wish Blizzard would move away from the "you must kill every single boss in the place before you can get to the last boss" model in their raids. IMO, everything should be winged, with an "endboss" wing you can get to after you get keyed by killing all the wings. It sounds like they are doing something like this with "Alagon the Observer" by having him only accessed by completing a quest line where you have to do 4 bosses on hard mode in Ulduar, but it's hard to say without actually seeing the layout.

Anyway the reason I say that is because my Naxx group got completely frustrated having to kill 13 unneeded bosses every week just to have a slight chance at a drop off the last dude. I don't even mind killing 3-4 bosses to get to a final boss, but 13 bosses and ~4 hours is just entirely too much. It doesn't seem Ulduar is going to alleviate that concern though, as it has like 12 bosses. I'd like to hope maybe all those bosses aren't tied to getting to Yogg-Saron and some of them are optional, but we'll see how that goes.

[Merusk]

Naxx will be nerfed down so you can run to Saph and Kel 2-3 months after Uldar is out.  Just like they finally did with Kael and Vashj.. I'll agree, though, its getting damned tedious having to run a whole instance when all the majority of your group needs is on those last 2 guys.