Gaming: Five Levels is Too Much: Beta Review of Lineage 2

[ClumsyOaf]

Doesn't approximately 20% of the people who buy a MMOG never even reach 2 hours /played?
A review of the first few hours seems in order.

The "you can't judge a MMOG from the first few days" argument is bs. Yes you can. Your judgment might be wrong - but so?

If a company can't be bothered to make the first couple of hours at least mildly interesting, why the fuck should I trust them to make anything interesting?

If you, for some reason, need to put "masturbate with a cheese grater" type gameplay in your game - don't do so at level 1. That's just incredibly stupid. Wait till people have played a few hours, build some commitment to the character - hook them. Then first should you go HAHAHAHA PWNED!!1!

I'm sure wife beaters don't hit a girl on the first date either...

[Calantus]

I have already posted in this thread that it's pvp I'm interested in, that's my major focus I like it.

I also posted that I didn't play EQ for more than 2 hours, you then turn that into I "enjoy camping one spot ".

You nuts or just twisting my words to get a rise?  The grind is just a necessary part of the process in developing your character to the point where you can kill people more effectively.  The quickest way of achieving that goal is to pay a little bit of attention to how much exp you are earning doing different mobs.  I didn't invent the term exp per hour, honest, trust me I didn't.

If there is no grind there can be no character advancement, if there is no character advancement then it would make more sense to play Quake to kill people.

If your major problem with Lineage 2 is that the killing mobs bit is boring, then we will not like the same games because I always always find that bit boring.  The fact that you like killing mobs in more interesting ways with more interesting spell effects and tactics and I don't, doesn't make me right and you wrong.  It just means we disagree, why throw the "walking wallet" comment at me you pink squashy bag of mostly water?

I perfected defeating computer AI in 1981 on the Atari 2600, I find Human intelligence much more interesting to defeat.

Dude... have you read this post of yours? Read it again.

Now, here's a rundown:

- You are ALL ABOUT PVP.
- You find killing monsters BORING.
- You believe killing monsters is necessary to grow... so you can kill stronger poeple... who are only stronger because THEY TOO went out and killed monsters. So you grind because everyone else grinds, and they grind because everyone else grinds, who grind because everyone else grinds, who grind because everyone else grinds, who grind because THE WORLD IS FULL OF STUPID FUCKERS.

Now, I can understand if someone says "I hate leveling, but I'll do it if I have to", but... you WANT to do shit you find boring a repetitive just so you can do something else entirely later on? And you want to PAY for the privelidge? o_O

What. The. Fuck. Are. You. Smoking?

My brain hurts.

[Hawken]

"1. Hawken - I really didn't want to attack people openly on a site that my name is attached to but, you sir are a total fucking moron fanboi idiot dumbass cockbiter. I spend almost every hour of my day playing games or mmogs. You *NEED* to troll more before you pin the tail on the donkey here. I'm glad you like shitty games, you're one less person who's opinion I have to care about. Oh and the SWG chat system pwned the Lineage 2 one. "

First off this is your site not mine. I am a follow over from Waterthread. And believe me your witty use of sardonic "fanboi" calls and verbal vitriol such as "fucking moron" and "dumbass cockbiter" do not phase me in the least. I am not a newbie.

Secondly you can shove yer "I play xx hours a week or days" you couldn't possibly hold a candle to how long I have played, teams I have ran, and hours I have put in. And no I am not proud of it. But all I do is play mmog's (and poker) I don't play any single player or console games (except the gameboy with my daughter).

Now that being said, I like Haemish, most of his reviews are spot on. Most of his articles are wonderful to read. When Lum sent me to waterthread 2 or 3 years ago because I begged him to give me a site that would feed my 1000 clicks a day habit that needed to be replaced when his site went down he sent me here.

Someone mentioned that when COH is released it will get "good" reviews here. It should if you like THAT kind of game. But believe me there IS a grind there also.

And you are complete jerkoff if you thought the SWG chat system was good or better than any chat sans ac2 since 1994 you fucking dolt. Thats pretty much a consensus among any mmog'er worth a salt that played that game.

SWG the treadmill was easy, 1 month to max your character even if your casual. Shadowbane even easier. INSTEAD of reviewing a game from now on as a general type of mmog you are going to start to have to classify a category for each one.

Otherwise your reviews are skewed. And not just biased. Hell they should be "biased" otherwise whats the fucking point of a review.

1. Hardcore/Treadmill - EQ
2. Hardcore/Treadmill/PVP - Daoc, Lineage II, AC1
3. Easy/Carebear/No Pvp - City of Heroes, toontown online, you get my drift.


I thought Haemish enjoyed PvP, and what he reviewed on top of everything else was an open beta with a gagillion fucktards in it. Even reviewing an open beta type game is ridiculous I mean now were reviewing games still in beta? And Schlid completely missed the point of my post. I never said I am going to stay with Lineage II, so how the fuck can I be a "fanboi".

People that know me, will definetely agree that I don't kiss up to devs or make favorable impressions of a game without a reason, hell I ripped SB countless times (and I played the shit out of it) when Haemish made decent reviews about it so fuck off okay?

Reviewing an "open beta" of Lineage II (Which does have some faults, what mmog doesn't?) to level 5 (yes he said that in his review) where the whole game really doesn't take place till post level 35 is FUCKING RETARDED. If you do not want to take the time to level up a character to give a proper review of something then don't review it. Just sit back stfu, and let someone else who LIKES that type of game decide whether its a heap of shit or not.

And lastly, to say "we dont like treadmills" we wont play it or review it well is something you better get used to or go play fucking quake, cause levels aren't going anywhere. Quit trying to make these games out to be more than what they are. A time sucking, black hole, of mindless fun.

Now get off my box.

[Hawken]

And I almost forgot.

Where are you getting your statistics that the "casual" gamer so grossly outweighs the "non-casual" gamer? In this thread a number of times it was said "that the casual games is what makes the money".

I call bullshit. Maybe in the first 2 months, but your long standing subscribers sure as HELL are going to be what makes you money. Its the people that play the game for years and become attached to it and subscribe and stay subscribed even after an abscense is where the money comes from.

I would really like the devs from daoc and eq (these are the 2 biggest subscriber basis right?) And have them tell me what the time is the "average" player for each game fucking plays. MMOG's were never ever made for the casual gamer, and the ones that tried have all ended up in the shitter. If a game is good I am guessing a large majority of the player base doesn't play it "casually".

So many people have been accosted by various mmog's over the last 7 or 8 years that I am almost positive the tide is beginning to turn (if it hasn't already) and the casual gamer is not something devs want to attract anymore.

They want a game with a hook, to keep you playing, keep you subscribed, and get you addicted to it.

[kuro]

I don't get these "hard core" players.  Nerf there +57 flaming eternal sword of shadows to +56 and they'll bitch and moan on vnboards for days, start a letter campaign, and threaten to cancel their account.   Yet, give them simple, repetitive, mind numbing game play and they don't even complain. Worse they defend it.  

If developers are so lazy and unimaginative that the first 4 hours of the game suck, why would you continue to pay to play?  How can you argue with a straight face that people should invest days and days of play time and months of subscription fees so that they can finally get to the fun part?  The "hard core" players are being taken advantage of by game developers. They're being exploited and cheated, but they're so fixated on hearing that 'ding' that they can't see the big picture. They need a fucking intervention.

[Hawken]

Some people like to "invest" in their characters.

God forbid.

[Rasix]

This website isn't about MMORPGS anymore I take it.  Instead, it's about former MMORPG players that talk about about how much they don't like MMORPGs anymore and do Television reviews instead.

Welcome to the year 2004, enjoy your stay.

This site hasn't been about MMORPGs for a solid year.  Because quite frankly no one's made any strides besides putting out more derivative, treadmill laden crap (which I guess you just can't get enough of).  I guess we're all sorry that our tastes have evolved and you're still trying to slither on to land.  

So, TV reviews? /shrug I guess they had to fill the void with something.  

But hey, with COH and WoW on the horizon I'm sure we'll see some positive MMORPG reviews in the next year (I've heard people like these games as games).

[Rasix]

Some people like to "invest" in their characters.

God forbid.

By invest do you mean sit in front of your computer for 8 hours a day fighting the same old shit so you can update your sig pic with a new level number?

You're all fucking nuts. That's not investment, that's masochism.

[Hawken]

Have fun thinking its any different in COH or WoW.

Cause yes there is levels in both of those games. Except in both of those games you can do it cartoon style.

Yay.

[Rasix]

Have fun thinking its any different in COH or WoW.

Cause yes there is levels in both of those games. Except in both of those games you can do it cartoon style.

Yay.

In WOW I've heard most of your leveling can be done through questing. That already gives it a heads up on L2.  I like to feel I'm progressing in the world rather than just wacking foozles because it's the only way.  

And I've heard COH actually has engaging, fun combat.  So ++ for them to.  

Yes, these games will all have levels and all have some sort of linear to exponential progression. But for fuck's sake, it doesn't necessarily have to suck.

[Paelos]

The same principle in writing should apply to MMOG's when it comes to the overall length of your game.

Give people a good beginning and a good ending, and they will forget about the mediocre middle.

That's the key to a good MMO, its to draw them in with good gameplay at the lower levels, ratchet them up for the end game, and then hit it out of the park with said endgame. It doesn't matter that the middle was a grind if it was at least a fun grind part of the time. If the gameplay is not fun at the beginning, and only fun at the end, then the game is missing a serious part of attracting a serious audience. Not just this hardcore vs. casual BS.

[Matt]

- You are ALL ABOUT PVP.
- You find killing monsters BORING.
- You believe killing monsters is necessary to grow... so you can kill stronger poeple... who are only stronger because THEY TOO went out and killed monsters. So you grind because everyone else grinds, and they grind because everyone else grinds, who grind because everyone else grinds, who grind because everyone else grinds, who grind because THE WORLD IS FULL OF STUPID FUCKERS.

Now, I can understand if someone says "I hate leveling, but I'll do it if I have to", but... you WANT to do shit you find boring a repetitive just so you can do something else entirely later on? And you want to PAY for the privelidge? o_O

I don't want to defend grinding, but I pay to do things I don't enjoy in order to enjoy something more later all the time. Everytime I go on vacation I'm forced to actually travel to the location, something I find extremely odious. It's worth the payoff though.

When I start a new martial art I'm usually forced to go through a bunch of boring crap before I can get to the fun stuff: sparring. Is it worth it? To me it is. To others, perhaps not.

The first time I read the Silmarillion I was bored shitless the first 20 or 30 pages. Worth slogging through that to get to the rest? Hell yes.

My point is that some of you are dramatically oversimplifying the dynamic at work here, which is not a black/white good/bad dynamic. It's one of cost vs. expected reward. If you expect the elder game will be worth the grind, then it behooves you to do the grind. If you don't, then don't. Simple cost/benefit analysis.

--matt

[Matt]

I guess we're all sorry that our tastes have evolved and you're still trying to slither on to land.  

Wow, that's pretty funny. Most text gamers would consider you and just about everyone playing graphical muds as underevolved primates who value eyecandy over gameplay.

Personally, I think that stance, and your stance, is a bit absurd. Your tastes have changed. To call them an evolution and imply that you're somehow "better" because you no longer like levelling is just as absurd as hardcore roleplayers saying they're inherently superior because they use far more creativity in their gameplay than you do.

--matt

[Arthur_Parker]

THE WORLD IS FULL OF STUPID FUCKERS.
................

My brain hurts.

Agreed, sorry about that.

[Margalis]

Have fun thinking its any different in COH or WoW.

Cause yes there is levels in both of those games. Except in both of those games you can do it cartoon style.

Yay.

I'll say this again. The devil is in the details. "These games all have levels, so they're exactly the same!" is idiotic. Having levels is not the problem. The problem is when you have to sit in the same place levelling for hours Dragon Warrior 2 style.

From what I've heard in WoW people go up levels naturally by doing quests. That's quite different than standing on one place for 10 hours pulling rabbits. Nearly every single player RPG uses the "level as you quest" model. Most MMORPGs don't.

[Rasix]

I guess we're all sorry that our tastes have evolved and you're still trying to slither on to land.  

Wow, that's pretty funny. Most text gamers would consider you and just about everyone playing graphical muds as underevolved primates who value eyecandy over gameplay.

Personally, I think that stance, and your stance, is a bit absurd. Your tastes have changed. To call them an evolution and imply that you're somehow "better" because you no longer like levelling is just as absurd as hardcore roleplayers saying they're inherently superior because they use far more creativity in their gameplay than you do.

--matt

Maybe I was just trying to hard to be insulting/funneh.  I believe truly that my tastes have changed for the better. I used to be content with mindless treadmills because the games they were attached with were shiny and new. I played the hell out of EQ for a good 3 years.  My last resubs to EQ didn't last over a month a piece. I spent maybe 3-4 months in DAoC.  With games like AC2 and AO I didn't last a week after the shiny wore off (a bit of a month of total playtime in each).  

I really just can't fathom how people will pay for these mindless, whack-a-mole contests FOR MONTHS AT A TIME with some sort of mythical, end-game-somewhere-over-the-rainbow promises.  It took me a while to realize that putting up with that crap is just a pointless waste of time.

How can rebuking boring, shitty, dull gameplay not be considered better?

Blah, fuck it. Back to the old two sides that will never see eye to eye. Carry on, enjoy your grind.

[Matt]

Maybe I was just trying to hard to be insulting/funneh.  I believe truly that my tastes have changed for the better. I used to be content with mindless treadmills because the games they were attached with were shiny and new. I played the hell out of EQ for a good 3 years.  My last resubs to EQ didn't last over a month a piece. I spent maybe 3-4 months in DAoC.  With games like AC2 and AO I didn't last a week after the shiny wore off (a bit of a month of total playtime in each).  

So before your tastes changed, you had a great 3 years playing EQ. Now, you've got no interest. Net result: You don't have any MMORPGs you like right now. How is that a change for the better? ;)  (I'm only being half serious.)

I really just can't fathom how people will pay for these mindless, whack-a-mole contests FOR MONTHS AT A TIME with some sort of mythical, end-game-somewhere-over-the-rainbow promises.  It took me a while to realize that putting up with that crap is just a pointless waste of time.

But you answered your own question above. You played EQ for 3 years. You're one of the people you're wondering about.

How can rebuking boring, shitty, dull gameplay not be considered better?

Because 'better' is subjective, as is 'boring', 'shitty', and 'dull.' It's pretty clear that level grinding is immensely attractive to a whole ton of players. Certainly way more attractive than PvP in an MMORPG is, sadly.

Blah, fuck it. Back to the old two sides that will never see eye to eye. Carry on, enjoy your grind.

I don't enjoy the grind. I don't even enjoy graphical MMORPGs yet as I feel like I'm playing a text mud from 10 years ago with some eyecandy slapped on.

I'm just pointing out that your preferences are just that: Your preferences. They aren't an indication of anything but that they happen to be your preferences.

--matt

[Daeven]

This whole thread nicely illustrates why I think we need to break out of the 'traditional' leveling paradigm. Let people invest in their characters through differentiation and specialization, but get rid of the evolving Hit Point mechanism where a level 1 newb can die of a hangnail, and a level 50bajillion character at the 'endgame' can solo deities

That mechanism works great for Pen and Paper Heroic Role playing in which a small group of characters are the protagonists and the setting is highly influenced via GM/player interactions. It is quite simply silly in a PSW, ESPECIALLY if it is going to have player competition of any sort (wither that is direct PvP or indirect raiding ala EQ).

And until someone ‘gets this’ I don’t think the genre is going to go anywhere except in circles. With Bondage Dark Elves utilizing tity-bounce vector calculations. In 3D.

And in all honesty, the sorts of 'changes I talk about aren't 'to hard', they are simply different. - and subject to institutional gestalt in both the development and playerbase culture.

*shrug*

[Xilren's Twin]

Wow, that's pretty funny. Most text gamers would consider you and just about everyone playing graphical muds as underevolved primates who value eyecandy over gameplay.

Personally, I think that stance, and your stance, is a bit absurd. Your tastes have changed. To call them an evolution and imply that you're somehow "better" because you no longer like levelling is just as absurd as hardcore roleplayers saying they're inherently superior because they use far more creativity in their gameplay than you do.

--matt

Matt et al, that not what he said at all and I hope you know it.  Why is everone insistent in mistating the problem.  It's not levels are bad or levels are boring, it about the gameplay NOW is boring us to tears.  Lineage might have the greatest pvp ever, but to require someone invest  months of real time doing unfun things to get their is insane.

Because here's the rub, you are driving off a lot of people would like the endgame if they could actually enjoy the trip to get there.  DAoC had the same problem with it's pvp; to get there you had to go do some less than fun thing for entirely too long.  Why would you want to drive off potential customers with something that is so arbitrary as a large "time investment needed beforeo end game" that has no instrinsic value to anything?

Let me ask you it this way.  Let's say pvp in lineage really begins and is quite fun at level 35.  What do you think the reaction would be to simply doubling the exp and money granted by every mob.  Presto chango, I've shortened the pve grind by half.  I changed the cost/benefit analysis with no real impact on anything.  Would anyone who plans to play/is playing Lineage2 already react negatively to this?  If the answer is no (and I susepct it is), then what purpose is served by keeping the grind as long as it is?  Is it simply to squeeze out a few more months of average revenue per play?  I hope not, but I suspect that is either the primary reason or there actually is no good reason for it.

But you know what I (and others in this thread) would prefer instead, engaging gameplay from the word go.  Levels and experience curves and such are completely artibrary and artifical things made up by the dev team.  They have no value outside the system and this has always been the case no matter what crpg or even pnp rpg you played.  I could care less if a game has 10 levels or 100 or 1000 if im having fun no matter what level i am.  If you say it's neccessary to get to level X strictly through pve to open up the pvp castle seiging portion, I'm ok with that, so long as getting to level X is enjoyable.   What's so wrong with wanting have fun at the beginning, middle and end of one of these games?

Xilren

[Soukyan]

It's simple.

Give me a game that does not make me stop. I hesitate to admit this, but one day after having played EQ for three years straight, as I was Cannibalizing with my shaman and then sitting to regain mana, it hit me. Why the fuck is my character doing the exact same thing I am in real life? Sitting on his ass. WTF? That's not epic adventure.

When I think of playing an epic hero, I'm thinking along the lines of Beowulf. Give me a character who can hold his breath for a day and administer an epic ass whooping to Grendel's mother. Don't give me the old, bland "preparation for the big day" bullshit. These characters are supposed to be amazing heroes of their worlds. Sure, they start out as greenhorns, but that's why they kill rabbits, rats, snakes and spiders, no? That's torture enough.

How to give people a game that doesn't make them stop? Quest based advancement. Sure, you may have to run all over the world to find items, kill mobs, go to another town, but at least your character is not sitting on its ass. At least there is the illusion that you are doing something and at least there is a story to what you are doing. It's like getting involved in a little novella or a chapter in the greater scheme of the 3D novel.

Sure, Beowulf probably rested, but you don't see a hell of a lot written about that do you? Why? Because it's fucking boring. So why again are you making me read about my rests between every fight in a fantasy world? I'll give AC2 one thing, they had regen rates right. Fast. I never once had to sit in that game unless I chose to do so for a meeting or roleplaying.

As to CoH and WoW, it remains to be seen if they leave their current systems intact and refrain from creating a grind by nerfing exp or raising the exp to level. But if they can manage to release games that allow me to go questing and gaining levels is a by-product of said questing, then they've got my cash. I'm not holding my breath though, because the majority of players who like to burn through the content, since they are the proud owners of great swaths of free time, like to bitch about how they got to the end too fast. And it's funny because we casual players say that it's their fault for leveling too fast. Conversely, if it's a tedious grind, the hardcore catasses look at the bitching casuals and say that it's our fault for not investing enough time and to go play single player if we want a fast game. *sigh* And the devs all watch and laugh at us.

[kaid]

I have been trying a dwarf in lineage 2 and I have to say that is probably the dullest worst mmrpg setup for one of a very limited ammounts of classes ever.

The only cookie they get is item crafting and until level 20 they are not even any good at that nor could they afford to actually use it.

For the first 20 levels your be all end all wack a mole ability is auto attack. Thats it they have nothing else. It is the most dreadfully dull boring thing I have ever tried. I am by no means a casual player and my time in lineage 2 rates a great big WTF. DAOC used to be the winner with 5 levels of suck but now that I have truly seen the suck champion daoc's first five levels are a blast.

It really does appear that after level 35 or 40 the game may be fun but to get to that point it is just awful. The only thing I can think of is the game is designed with multiple people playing the same character so you wouldn't notice the massive tedium as much as you would not have to do it all yourself.

I have played almost every major mmrpg out there and I still play many of them. Hell I am a mmrpg fanboi but I just cannot stomach lineage 2 at all. I guess it is good to know where ones limits are and L2 is mine.

Kaid

[Matt]

Wow, that's pretty funny. Most text gamers would consider you and just about everyone playing graphical muds as underevolved primates who value eyecandy over gameplay.

Personally, I think that stance, and your stance, is a bit absurd. Your tastes have changed. To call them an evolution and imply that you're somehow "better" because you no longer like levelling is just as absurd as hardcore roleplayers saying they're inherently superior because they use far more creativity in their gameplay than you do.

--matt

Matt et al, that not what he said at all and I hope you know it.  Why is everone insistent in mistating the problem.  It's not levels are bad or levels are boring, it about the gameplay NOW is boring us to tears.  Lineage might have the greatest pvp ever, but to require someone invest  months of real time doing unfun things to get their is insane.

Right. It's boring -you- to tears. Meanwhile Everquest has 400,000+ subscribers. *shrug*

--matt

[daveNYC]

Anyone who thinks they're going to win over any of EQ's 400k users by having "all the level grind, and only 25% of the content!" then they deserve to fail.

[Matt]

Anyone who thinks they're going to win over any of EQ's 400k users by having "all the level grind, and only 25% of the content!" then they deserve to fail.

Oh, agreed. My point is just that grind games are clearly entertaining to many people.

--matt

[Snowspinner]

Anyone who thinks they're going to win over any of EQ's 400k users by having "all the level grind, and only 25% of the content!" then they deserve to fail.

Oh, agreed. My point is just that grind games are clearly entertaining to many people.

--matt

And my point is that, as the past few years of MMOGs have shown, they're not going to leave EQ. Not when SoE can put out a new GUI and new content with enough frequency. I mean, there's really no reason to think EQ is going to fall off of its peak anytime soon. Or anytime later. Because it has years of dev time now, and players have ages /played.

I repeat - there is no reason to try to clone EQ. The EQ players are happy.

[Matt]

And my point is that, as the past few years of MMOGs have shown, they're not going to leave EQ. Not when SoE can put out a new GUI and new content with enough frequency. I mean, there's really no reason to think EQ is going to fall off of its peak anytime soon. Or anytime later. Because it has years of dev time now, and players have ages /played.

I repeat - there is no reason to try to clone EQ. The EQ players are happy.

Eh, they've been happy for a mere 5 years. They won't be happy forever. And no one is suggesting cloning EQ. Having a similar major gameplay aspect is hardly a game-killing 'flaw'. If it was, nobody would bother making an FPS after Doom, or an RPG after the early Ultimas.

--matt

[Snowspinner]

Doom and the Ultima games had meaningful endpoints - at some point, you ran out of game.

That's not a factor for EQ. Neither, frankly, is a decline of shininess, as they've demonstrated.

So what's going to be the motivating factor for people to move off the game?

[Anonymous]

Grinds are entertaining for only so long.  Eventually, people acquire families, careers, things that get in the way of soul devouring timewasters, which is what current "hardcore" mmogs are.

Hey, if what you want is to appeal to a "hardcore" audience comprised of highschool and college age punk males, so be it.  Enjoy the cesspool!  I hope someone makes a game aimed at people with less time on their hands.  It'll be a goldmine.  I'm waiting, cash in hand, for that game to arrive.

[Snowspinner]

One thing I don't understand is why companies focus on timesinks. I mean, ultimately, they don't care how much time you spend connected to their servers. Frankly, in terms of bandwidth, CS time, etc, the best customer is one who never logs on.

Why design timesinks when you can just have a game that people play less? Especially something like SoE or EA, where they have other games that you could be paying them not to play too.

[Arnold]

One thing I don't understand is why companies focus on timesinks. I mean, ultimately, they don't care how much time you spend connected to their servers. Frankly, in terms of bandwidth, CS time, etc, the best customer is one who never logs on.

Why design timesinks when you can just have a game that people play less? Especially something like SoE or EA, where they have other games that you could be paying them not to play too.

Hehe, UO had the ultimate version of this going for quite some time, and maybe still do.  A house is a powerful attachment to the game and lots of people hod accounts open just to have the privelage to login and refresh a house before logging out.

[Alluvian]

Have fun thinking its any different in COH or WoW.

Cause yes there is levels in both of those games. Except in both of those games you can do it cartoon style.

Yay.

Maybe we have to back up abit here and get our definitions straight.

A treadmill to me is a series of actions that is done in order to progress in a game.

A "GRIND" is a BORING, repetitive treadmill that is not 'fun'.

I have no problems at all with treadmills or levels.  But the grind is the problem.  What defines a grind will differ from one to another because the definition of 'fun' is subjective.

This forum generall sees 'click autoattack and see if you win' gameplay the epitome of a grind.  People who still love that are often viewed here with the same level of horrified awe as people who enjoy making or watching scat films.  We dislike eating shit SO much it is hard for us to comprehend that there are those out there that enjoy it.

Let me clarify the word 'still' above.  I don't think others on this thread are being internally inconsistent (as Matt pointed out above) by playing EQ for years and then vehemently attacking the same gameplay in lineage.  It is in fact incredibly logical to me.

The hit the lever get the pellet gameplay is actually casually enjoyable for awhile.  The game becomes a colorful IRC chatroom.  The vehement hatred of that is when after playing it for 3 years and utterly being SICK AND TIRED of it, they go onto NEW games expecting... well... a NEW game.  What they get is the same autoattack with occasional button press combat again and again and again.  EQ, daoc, ac, ac2, ao, sb, lineage, lineage2, earth and beyond, horizons, swg...  They are all essentially the same combat, and although that is accepted in some genres (rts, fps, etc...) it seems to uniquely grate on the nerves of most veterens over time.

RTS and FPS games, whether you enjoy them or not actively involve the user.  MMOG combat generally does not.  I am sad to see WoW has pretty much stuck with the same tired paradigm.  Leveling through questing may be enough to save it by taking some focus off the darn horrible combat.  It has worked for other rpg games with shitty combat (NWN comes to mind, where it DIDNT work for lionheart).

That is my take on it.

Oh, and one more thing.  The comments that the casual gamer outnumbers the hardcore are pretty strongly supported by the insane success of games like the sims and deer hunter.

[Xilren's Twin]

Right. It's boring -you- to tears. Meanwhile Everquest has 400,000+ subscribers. *shrug*

*Sigh*.  No shit.  I hear Deer Hunter is really popular too.
And in case you missed it in the latest pc gamer (#123) article on EQ2, there are over 1.6 million people who USED to play EQ but don't anymore.  Yes, that includes me.  Guess we shouldn't bother trying to make something better to get those customers already pre-disposed to the genre eh?

Besides, I thought the huge appeal of Lin2 was supposed to be the kickass pvp at the end of the rainbow; something eq most certainly does not have.  So why are they asking people to play a pve game that actually worse than original eq for weeks/months until they get there again?  Who is that supposed to appeal to exactly?

And as a futher question to people who like lin2 despite it's grind, how exactly can anyone know if the pvp is any good if it takes months to get there without investing the time?

Xilren

[slog]

Grinds are entertaining for only so long.  Eventually, people acquire families, careers, things that get in the way of soul devouring timewasters, which is what current "hardcore" mmogs are.

Hey, if what you want is to appeal to a "hardcore" audience comprised of highschool and college age punk males, so be it.  Enjoy the cesspool!  I hope someone makes a game aimed at people with less time on their hands.  It'll be a goldmine.  I'm waiting, cash in hand, for that game to arrive.

I don't think it will be a goldmine.  Look at other Subscription content.   Only those with a very strong vested interest are willing to pay.  People who don't watch much TV tend to not pay 100 bucks a month for 500 TV channels.

I think it's reasonable to say that people simply are not willing to pay 15 bucks a month for a game they play 10 hours a month.

[Riley]

I am still amused that people see "quests" and think it is all of the sudden going to be better.  My level 9 DE in L2 has 4 "quests" running, the content at the low levels is not extensive, but it is also not non-existant.  Just because you can go kill wolves on auto-attack and advance for 10 hours straight doesn't mean you have to, lol.

I think what people are looking for is a game that throws quests at you one after the other and leads you by the nose through a linear story line.  If they have to spend 3 minutes exploring the world to find their next quest, thats "boring" and they get fed up and go kill wolves on auto-attack.

A PSW is supposed to be immersive and open-ended - at least that is why many people like them.  By its very nature, that means you have to go out and explore and choose your own path.

Not that I am defending L2 - like I said above, its possibly the worst MMORPG I have played in the low levels, but I think people are focusing on the wrong things here.

[Matt]

Doom and the Ultima games had meaningful endpoints - at some point, you ran out of game.

That's not a factor for EQ. Neither, frankly, is a decline of shininess, as they've demonstrated.

So what's going to be the motivating factor for people to move off the game?

Who knows. It will happen though. Nothing lasts forever. =)

--matt