Gaming: Five Levels is Too Much: Beta Review of Lineage 2

[Matt]

I completely disagree.  If the game is not fun in the first four hours (c.f. Raph's laws of gaming, et al), preferrably in the first ten minutes, then that's that folks.  Wrap it up.  Unless your target is the hardcore.  In which case, some hardcore player can review the game for the rest of the hardcore.  Haemish, as a "casual" player, is more than qualified to review an MMOG for people who are sick and fucking tired of being told they will never ever reach the fun, because they don't have the time to catass through the original game, much less the additional content added to keep the catasses happy.

If Haemish wants to review the first 4 hours of a game experience, that's fine. Just don't label it a review of the game as a whole. One doesn't watch 10 minutes of a movie or read 10 pages of a book and review it based on that. Or rather, a quality review of the entire product that does not make.
--matt

[Anonymous]

Apples and oranges.  A movie is two hours.  A book is maybe around 10 hours for most people.  An MMOG is potentially 50+ days /played, or more.  You can argue that someone should put in 20 days /played before writing an actual review, but I'd disagree strenuously.  Such a review would take months of playtime, and would probably not even be relevant by the time it was released.  (Content additions and bug fixes could potentially alter earlier parts of the review.)

I'm sure, as a developer, you don't want to see people dismiss a game as unfun because the early levels suck.  Pardon me for saying, "Too fucking bad."  Make all the game fun, or don't show up to the dance.  God knows I would have snapped my KotOR CD in half in about the first 10 minutes if I had to sit and kill rabbits with a fucking butter knife before I could even start "having fun".

This isn't 1998 anymore, and we aren't going to take the abuse of having unfun buggyass pieces of shit foisted on us anymore.  Fucking deal.

[Alluvian]

If Haemish wants to review the first 4 hours of a game experience, that's fine. Just don't label it a review of the game as a whole. One doesn't watch 10 minutes of a movie or read 10 pages of a book and review it based on that. Or rather, a quality review of the entire product that does not make.
--matt

Your not that stupid.  I know your not.  He labeled the fucking thing exactly what it was.  A review of the first 5 levels.  It was right in the fucking title, what you might even call a 'label'.  And then he proceeded to say it half a dozen times in the article itself.  It he made a point to hide his lack of playing or never bothered stating that he didn't play much of the game you would have a point.  But he broke his fucking back repeatedly pointing that out.

If you read an article and fail to notice things as big as that, I am shocked you can drive yourself to work instead of just getting confused looking for the steering wheel of your car.

So off the damn high horse and take the article for what it was CLEARLY labeled as.

[HaemishM]

I couldn't agree with you more, but it seems to me this is -very- common. I think it stems from two things:
1. A total lack of critical aesthetic among game reviewers. In other words, it's just some guys giving their opinions, as opposed to working within a critical framework like a good film or book reviewer may. It's mainly just a function of the youth of the games industry though.

2. The fact that MMORPGs are -long- and to really properly review them is not cost-effective. Let's say you have 3 "qualified" reviewers on staff. You can't have one of them spending 1000 hours on a single game. You certainly can't just recruit one of the long-time players to write a review, as a long-time player almost certainly lacks the ability to view the game in anything approaching an objective manner.

So while I agree, I don't see that it's really possible to properly review MMORPGs for the most part.

--matt

Somewhere in all my writing you seem to have mstaken me for a journalist. I'm just a loudmouth asshole with a penchant for turning a phrase. I don't have nor do I care to have a "critical aesthetic." I'm not a journalist, nor do I wish to be. At best, I'm an editorialist, and a vulgar one at that.

I tell you my opinions of a game. You agree or disagree. That's about as deep as it goes.

If a game doesn't interest me enough to play to the mythical fun stage, I think I am qualified to come to the conclusion that I do not like the game, and that others whose opinion sometimes matches mine might agree with me.

[schild]

If Haemish wants to review the first 4 hours of a game experience, that's fine. Just don't label it a review of the game as a whole. One doesn't watch 10 minutes of a movie or read 10 pages of a book and review it based on that. Or rather, a quality review of the entire product that does not make.
--matt

Your not that stupid.  I know your not.  He labeled the fucking thing exactly what it was.  A review of the first 5 levels.  It was right in the fucking title, what you might even call a 'label'.  And then he proceeded to say it half a dozen times in the article itself.  It he made a point to hide his lack of playing or never bothered stating that he didn't play much of the game you would have a point.  But he broke his fucking back repeatedly pointing that out.

If the 'hook' in a product sucks, the product sucks, plain and simple. If I don't like the trailer for a movie, they won't get my movie dollars, if I don't like the first chapter of a book I won't finish it, if the scenes before opening credits on a tv show sucks, i won't watch it. What you  have said, considering you develop 'games' or whatever, worries me to the core. It basically says 'hey fuck you gamer, we don't want to give you fun til you work for it!' WRONG ANSWER! Your response should be 'Hey, you paid us, here's your fun.' Don't 'patch it in later', don't tell us 'Hey, but the endgame is awesome.' or 'hey, you didn't play long enough.' Bring the fun or fuckoff.

[Paelos]

I'm of the opinion with Haemish on the issue of reviewing something on its parts rather than the whole. Simply put, MMOGs are the only games which seem to want to claim that after 4 hours you can't figure out whether or not it is fun. This is of course crap. I can play any console game for 4 hours and know whether it was fun, and I can do the same with any single player PC game. Hell, I can do that with almost any multiplayer game ala Diablo 2, Warcraft, Savage, etc. Somewhere down the line I think people truly forget exactly how much time 4 hours really accounts for.

To answer the question of how much you can determine about the game in a brief time, you can look at other games. In DAOC, if you didn't like the idea of auto-attack, grinding xp, bashing mobs, and doing goofy little errand quests...Well the rest of the game isn't going to turn it around for you. But wait, you say, what about the PvP and RvR. Well in reality, those things are just another grind as is, and people spend time in Emain farming each other for xp rather than mobs. The point is that the mechanics that held the game together never change, they just get slightly more complicated. To those who compare the first 4 hours to reading the first few chapters, I have to say that's incorrect. It's more like reading the first chapter, and then realizing that 90% of the book is the same chapter except longer and told from a different POV.

But, then again if MMO's were books, they'd be a million pages long and give you the middle finger every so often.

[Riley]

First off, this post is not a defense of L2.  I have a level 9 fighter and I will say that I think this game is possibly the worst MMORPG I have ever played.  The end game does look cool, but it looks like it requires a huge amount of dedication - more so than I can put into a game at this point.

Onto some generalizations though.  I think the problem lies in how cost effective it is for a game company to put time into the newbie experience.  I mean, really think about it.

The newbie experience is one that lasts a very short while.  If the devs are shooting for 1000+ hours of game play, how much dev time should they focus on the first 2 hours.  The newbie experience also is not one that will be replayed - people that have been through it once and are rerolling a character are probably going to do their damndest to blow through it as fast as possible.  The high level content is really where the re-playability comes in - if the company doesn't spend enough time on that, then the game effectively ends and they loose the high end players which is very damaging for the community of the game.  You also cannot afford to give away all your tricks right off the bat... if you give everyone a bunch of skills from the start, they will never feel like the progress and will get bored.  Plenty of games have this problem too where your progress is just the numbers on your skill getting bigger - that is quite boring as well.  There has to be some balance.

On the other hand, the newbie experience is the hook that draws people in and gets them interested.  A good newbie experience will suck in the more casual gamers and earn you good reviews from the game sites.  

The bottom line though, from a business perspective - honestly, how important is it for a MMORPG to draw in casual gamers?  You HAVE to give up design elements that appeal to the hardcore gamers to do this - and you will loose some of the hardcore element.  I honestly don't think we know the answer to this question yet.  It is fairly apparent though by looking at the successful games out there - EQ and FFXI are probably the 2 hardest games on the market, and they are the most popular.  They have good content as well, but most casual gamers abhor these 2 games.

The other thing about MMORPGs is the exploration factor.  Some people do not like to explore, they find it boring.  Other people enjoy hunting around and turning over every rock and looking in every crevice.  Most MMORPGs have plenty of content - it just requires you to search it out.  This too needs balance so that people have enough content that is spood fed to them to keep them interested, but to also have enough content that it makes the world around you worth exploring.  I think its important to note though that people that do not like exploration will never fully enjoy most MMORPGs... thats part of the game and many other people do find it interesting.

[Fargull]

Hmm..

Good write Haemish.  As the thread has pointed out, and been nudged by Lum, I think the errors of the current MMORPG design theory are starting to show glaringly.  If masocism is a required trait to enjoy a game or any entertainment avenue, then they can count me out.  If I want to go watch the cubbies and suddenly it is required to spend two weeks in the Gym pumping iron to get a seat or running a treadmill for forty hours to spit a ticket at me, then I will not be going to see the cubbies.  I want entertainment, not a JOB.

[HaemishM]

The bottom line though, from a business perspective - honestly, how important is it for a MMORPG to draw in casual gamers?

It is the most important thing an MMOG can do, whether the makers really want to admit it or not.

Casual or "time-starved" players take up less bandwidth. They typically do not use message boards, or use them much more sparingly than hardcore. They have longer subscription times, because it takes them longer to access "enough" content to sate them. They generate less customer service costs. And most importantly, THEY ARE THE MAJORITY.

[Hawken]

you will ever get anything but a sarcastic, whiny, review of an mmog on this site you will be waiting until death I am sure.

This is a site of jaded mmog players, who don't play games, especially mmog's anymore they just whine about them.

Lineage 2.

Graphics - 8.5

They did a nice job with the Unreal Engine, but anything under 1Mhz, and not  a "decent" video card its going to feel like your running an old ford model t.

Movement/Controls - 6.5

Alot to be desired here, you can point and click or use the arrow keys for movement, both are sluggish and definetely needs some work.

Chat System - 8.0

After SWG any chat system will look good after using that piece of shit.

Gameplay - 9.0

Why? Ok I will name as many factors as possible. Although this game is most definetely NOT for the casual player. For the Hardcore player its a dream.

PvP - Amazing PvP system that keeps it where it should. Castle sieges, race warring. If your a ganker or a griefer you wont be around long, being red is like putting a gun to your head in this game.

Leveling - Tremendously difficult, people who put time into their characters get the added benefit of growing attached to their avatar. There wont be a ton of "alts" in this game not for a long time. The lack of a hardcap will also keep the "catasses" busy striving to reach xx level.

The guild system - Maximum number of people in a guild is 40, with alliance its 240. Still a little too high in my opinion, but not daoc or sb zerglike in quality.

Castle controlling - not unique, daoc has done it, but in this game people will actually want their own castle.

PvE - I am only level 22, but what I DO like about the pve is leveling solo is JUSt as easy as grouping. And I hear this is true up until around level 35. A definite plus for people who dont want to be LFG all day long. Mob AI is mmog typical atm, get within a certain range of an aggressive mob they will attack.

I compare the PvE mostly to EQ, there is crowd control (A necessity at higher levels, again from what I hear), and a well balanced group is necessary at later levels for both PvP and PvE.

Loot/Looting/Exp Death - 6.0 - 5.0 - 1.0

Loot is dropped at random, from any mob, and could be anything. From an antidote potion to a nice piece of armor.

Upon a death both PvE and PvP you have a chance of dropping an item, moreso if you are red and die the chance of dropping an item is greater. This is a big problem with me, dropping an item while soloing and dying to a mob in PvE can sometimes really suck. Why?

Because you also incur an EXP penalty upon every single death no matter how ya die. And as hard as it is to level as you get higher, this just will piss off you off ad-nauseum. But like I said this game is not for the casual player. Haemish did have it right, in this aspect Koreans are insane.

Crafting - I cannot tell you alot about this yet, but the crafting system is in. Someone who knows about this can elaborate. I have looted a couple recipes off of mobs though.

Quests - Plentiful, and some are quite good. And the rewards make you actually want to do them.

Extensive amount of races, classes, and skills moreso than any other top notch mmo at the moment.

Character customization is terrible imo, they really screwed the pooch on this one imo. I would have loved to be able to differentiate my character more.

Overall rating on the game SO FAR is an 8.0 for me.

[Paelos]

Hawken,

I think you are missing the point of what this community wants in an MMOG. Everything you described about Lineage makes me want to stab the developers. You basically agreed that character customization sucks and that the game is an even longer treadmill than most. Here's a hint, the reason we are jaded and pissed off is because WE HATE THE FUCKING TREADMILL! Treadmills are not a game, they are a distraction to take away from the fact that you our portioning out your life in game hours. To make another MMO with an even longer treadmill is so in the opposite of what the majority of the playerbase wants, it's simply insane. Perhaps in Korea, they love the treadmill, and they don't like sleep. Fine, here in America, the biggest hits against developers is pushing more of the grind on us.

I mean my god, look at the clusterfuck that was SWG. That game is a treadmill that just forgot to put a carrot at the end. In DAOC, TOA is railed against for making the game an treadmilling nightmare by the addition of camping for inane crap just so you can be effective. In simple terms, the treadmill is uninspired and as such is not fun. To tell me that Lineage is great because it is DAOC with 50% more catassing doesn't say anything to me about its fun factor. That's basically all you told us.

[Daeven]

while it may be the case that Lineage2 does suck I dont think you can find that out by playing the beta for a few hours or even a few weeks.

I dont really think you can judge a MMORPG until you play it for at least a few months to be honest.  

The sieging and pvp may be totally awesome and you would never know.

I mean I'm not sure how much fun any MMORPG is when you start out?

You just encapsulated the entire problem with the genre as it is currently being implemented.

Thank you.

[Riley]

The bottom line though, from a business perspective - honestly, how important is it for a MMORPG to draw in casual gamers?

It is the most important thing an MMOG can do, whether the makers really want to admit it or not.

Casual or "time-starved" players take up less bandwidth. They typically do not use message boards, or use them much more sparingly than hardcore. They have longer subscription times, because it takes them longer to access "enough" content to sate them. They generate less customer service costs. And most importantly, THEY ARE THE MAJORITY.

I'm honestly not convinced though.  I think that a game built for casual gaming will have a shorter life cycle - I believe one thing you are overlooking is that it is HARD to build a 1000 hours of game play into a casual game design.  This leads to a mass exodous of the hardcore players which keep the community together, and shorter subscription cycles over all.

Show me the money HaemishM :)  The attempted "casual" MMORPGs that have come out so far have fallen flat on their faces.  

The design that many WT people are calling for requires massive, massive amounts of content and there is no way the devs can keep up with that.

Its kind of interesting because I think WoW is going to try for this.  The lower level graphics makes it easier for them to add new content, and they are putting a big effort into adding tons of content (which I think is sacrificing some of the depth of the game).  WoW looks like it will be a blast to play and a great time, but I wonder how long it will hold people?

[Sloth]

If the 'hook' in a product sucks, the product sucks, plain and simple. If I don't like the trailer for a movie, they won't get my movie dollars, if I don't like the first chapter of a book I won't finish it, if the scenes before opening credits on a tv show sucks, i won't watch it. What you  have said, considering you develop 'games' or whatever, worries me to the core. It basically says 'hey fuck you gamer, we don't want to give you fun til you work for it!' WRONG ANSWER! Your response should be 'Hey, you paid us, here's your fun.' Don't 'patch it in later', don't tell us 'Hey, but the endgame is awesome.' or 'hey, you didn't play long enough.' Bring the fun or fuckoff.

Thats very narrowminded view. Thats what people with attention deficent disorder might base all their opinions on. Its the kind of people who miss the first basket they shoot in basketball and then claim the game sucks.

[Sloth]

Your not that stupid.  I know your not.  He labeled the fucking thing exactly what it was.  A review of the first 5 levels.  It was right in the fucking title, what you might even call a 'label'.  And then he proceeded to say it half a dozen times in the article itself.  It he made a point to hide his lack of playing or never bothered stating that he didn't play much of the game you would have a point.  But he broke his fucking back repeatedly pointing that out.

If you read an article and fail to notice things as big as that, I am shocked you can drive yourself to work instead of just getting confused looking for the steering wheel of your car.

So off the damn high horse and take the article for what it was CLEARLY labeled as.

He labled it "Five Levels is Too Much: Beta Review of Lineage 2". He made it clear he only played for 5 levels, yet still went on to say the entire game was bad because of his experience with 5 levels. I think you're the one who is confused here.

It would be like me saying "I read 10 pages of Harry Potter and I say the entire book sucks." It doesn't matter how many times in the review I say I only read 10 pages and put "NOTE I only read 10 pages", its still a review an entire product on a small amount of reading.

If i was going to do a 10 page review of Harry Potter I'd say "my impressions of the first 10 pages are yadda yadda yadda...the rest of the book may or may not get better, but I couldn't get past the first 10 pages" So whats the point of a 10 page review? Nothing really except to hear myself talk.

[Alluvian]

you will ever get anything but a sarcastic, whiny, review of an mmog on this site you will be waiting until death I am sure

Nah, I think you will hear a pretty long and pretty positive one once the CoH NDA drops.  Probably on the 7th with the preorder beta, but maybe not until later.

The reviewers here jump on this shit fast because they have fucking played it back when it was called eq, or daoc, or shadowbane.  Lineage 2 is not a new game.

CoH isn't exactly new either, but at least it feels like a pretty damn good mod.

[schild]

1. Hawken - I really didn't want to attack people openly on a site that my name is attached to but, you sir are a total fucking moron fanboi idiot dumbass cockbiter. I spend almost every hour of my day playing games or mmogs. You *NEED* to troll more before you pin the tail on the donkey here. I'm glad you like shitty games, you're one less person who's opinion I have to care about. Oh and the SWG chat system pwned the Lineage 2 one.

2. Sloth - sigh, dude, if the low levels of a game - which are typically the first 2-8 hours are boring, what's the point of going on. Most single player games now'a'days can be beaten in 8-10 hours. I beat Deus Ex 2 on the first time through in 6, Splinter Cell is going to take me about 6 (MAYBE), Ninja Gaiden - I'm just about to rack up my 3rd or 4th hour and I'm probably approaching the halfway point (maybe not, I don't know). Point is you can judge a game, and books, movies, and TV from the first quarter of the show (15 mnutes for tv, 1-2 hours for a book, and 30 minutes for a movie).

To think you can't is insanely naieve, it has nothing to do with ADD or anything else. If I pay for a form of entertainment I want it to be fun from beginning to end, not a second job. Lineage 2, after the first 5 levels was a second job. Star Wars, after you exhausted the shiny of clothing, housing, and 'war' was a second job (to get to jedi, or to rack up faction points).

If you don't like something from the moment you log in, especially in a beta, why do you keep going? I'm not into S&M.

[slog]

This whole thread and the review are totally moronic.

This is Lineage2: The casual need not apply.

If you want a MMORPG with no leveling, don't play.  This is not the game you are looking for.  There is no need to cry about it.

Some of us want a game where it takes a long time (Months) to get to a point where you can PvP.  In fact, I'd say there are a lot of us.

The rest of you can go play something else.

[Daeven]

But, then again if MMO's were books, they'd be a million pages long and give you the middle finger every so often.

Nah. They'd be Robert Jordon works - 800 pages about the draperies, and a page and a half of action.

[Arthur_Parker]

Made level 12 Dwarf today, hanging out in the Dwarf mines, finally completed the Silversmith Hammer quest.  

Now have a full suit of wood armour and really enjoying the hp bonus.  Also discovered I can hunt lower level mobs for more exp per hour than normal level mobs and do it with almost no down time.

Got a Doom Dagger rare drop too even though my hammer rocks.

Requesting permission to join Hawkens "total fucking moron fanboi idiot dumbass cockbiter" club please because I fucking love this game.

Might I remind you that some of you people played EQ for more than 2 hours for gods sake.....

[HaemishM]

Some of us want a game where it takes a long time (Months) to get to a point where you can PvP.  In fact, I'd say there are a lot of us.

The rest of you can go play something else.

There are more of us than there are of you.

And I thought I did so I would go and play something else, or at the very least, wouldn't be playing this turd.

[Anonymous]

Actually, Haemish's review is dead on then, sloggo.  The review, as read by someone who finds ONS a helluva lot more fun than say, getting PLed in Shadowbane, tells me that L2 is not the game for me.  Taken from that perspective, the review is a massive success.  I mean, attack something, and watch the screen?  For five levels?  Then you get one ability you can use every so often?  And this continues to level twenty, when you actually start to finally diverge?

Now, if you want a review from a hardcore perspective, go for it.  Let us know in about three months how great the game is.  Until then, I'll be having fun in D2X and UT2k4.

Re:  Reds in L2.  I predict there will be entire guilds of reds, owning everything in their path.  So what if the penalties are harsh?  That really worked in UO!  Wait... no it didn't...

[slog]

Some of us want a game where it takes a long time (Months) to get to a point where you can PvP.  In fact, I'd say there are a lot of us.

The rest of you can go play something else.

There are more of us than there are of you.

And I thought I did so I would go and play something else, or at the very least, wouldn't be playing this turd.

Yep.  What I don't get is why you even played in the first place.  It's not like they advertised "NO LEVELING IN LINEAGE."  Not to mention that it's pretty much well known among anyone who knows anything about Korean MMORPG's knows that they make games fpr the catass.

[slog]

Now, if you want a review from a hardcore perspective, go for it.  Let us know in about three months how great the game is.  Until then, I'll be having fun in D2X and UT2k4.

Re:  Reds in L2.  I predict there will be entire guilds of reds, owning everything in their path.  So what if the penalties are harsh?  That really worked in UO!  Wait... no it didn't...

The Red system works pretty well in L2, since its 90% item centric (like EQ) and you drop items when you die as a red.  My guild consists of the most extreme pkers I know (The Fallen Angels) and we don't go Red.  

Also, I'm level 17, so I might just take you up on that review (but I'm a sucky writer)

[schild]

(but I'm a sucky writer)

Ya don't say. </tongue-in-cheek>

[HaemishM]

I tried it out because it's free, I do like PVP when it doesn't suck, and I like to at least have some knowledge of something before I make a final judgement on its suckitude. I also hoped against hope that it might actually have something beyond what it appeared on the surface.

The surface was about all I could stomach, though.

[slog]

I tried it out because it's free, I do like PVP when it doesn't suck, and I like to at least have some knowledge of something before I make a final judgement on its suckitude. I also hoped against hope that it might actually have something beyond what it appeared on the surface.

The surface was about all I could stomach, though.

Fair enough.  I told everyone in #hate they all wouldn't like it either and not to bother.

The engame PvP is very much based on being able to work as a team, using Terrain to your advantage, etc.  The siege system works extremely well, and its what SB should have been.  Of course, to make it work SB would have had to been made as a catass game, but that's beside the point.

Just keep in mind, I wouldn't bother with L2 if you consider yourself a casual gamer.

[Daeven]

The really sad thing is that once again, the 'end game' sounds pretty fun. It is to bad that characters don't 'start' at level 20. *shrug*

You are right though. This game is *NOT* for the 'time constrained'.

[ajax34i]

Someone on the L2 forums linked the review on this site and they're now "commenting" about it there.  Expect a huge influx of people dropping by to give us their opinion of Waterthread.

[schmoo]

Expect a huge influx of people dropping by to give us their opinion of Waterthread.

Nah, that post has scrolled off the first page already.

[schild]

Someone on the L2 forums linked the review on this site and they're now "commenting" about it there.  Expect a huge influx of people dropping by to give us their opinion of Waterthread.

I read the first few responses. I seriously think these people don't have the mental capacity to get past the introduction. Ironically enough, that completely validates his review.

Ya can't call a review about a game trash because the reviewer didn't play long enough if ya don't read the whole review. Hypocrites.

[schmoo]

I read the first few responses.

Heh, keep reading. ;)

[Sloth]

2. Sloth - sigh, dude, if the low levels of a game - which are typically the first 2-8 hours are boring, what's the point of going on. Most single player games now'a'days can be beaten in 8-10 hours. I beat Deus Ex 2 on the first time through in 6, Splinter Cell is going to take me about 6 (MAYBE), Ninja Gaiden - I'm just about to rack up my 3rd or 4th hour and I'm probably approaching the halfway point (maybe not, I don't know). Point is you can judge a game, and books, movies, and TV from the first quarter of the show (15 mnutes for tv, 1-2 hours for a book, and 30 minutes for a movie).

TV shows can grow on you. I can name alot of TV shows that I started off not liking, then started liking when I watched them in syndication. Like Fresh Prince of Bel Air, the first season I only watched two episodes, but when it came out in Syndication, watching it every day it started growing on me and the final couple seasons I really liked.

Silent Hill 3 I thought was a mess and boring the first half, then when I finally got back to the girls apartment the plot started making sense and there was a point. Now I wouldn't have stuck with SH3 had I not loved SH2, but at that point I just wanted to see the end. Now the second half though is pretty good.

As far as L2 goes, obviously if you don't like leveling to 5 you aren't going to like leveling to 50, but you should know that before you even begin to play.  The difference is if you do like the MMOG levelfest, basing your decision of l2 on the first 5 levels is just doing yourself a disservice because the newbie levels really aren't indicitive of what the later levels are like. Once you start getting Skill Points, you'll be training alot within each level, so the actual act of leveling goes by the wayside , instead you go after Skill Points.

[schild]

the newbie levels really aren't indicitive of what the later levels are like.

Yes they are, and if they aren't they should be.

-edited a 2nd time to remove catass. You make enough fun of yourself.

[Snowspinner]

the newbie levels really aren't indicitive of what the later levels are like.

Yes they are, and if they aren't they should be. Jackass.

Clearly you've not played EQ. Oasis of Marr is really in no way indicative of of what the Planes of Power are going to be like.

That said, I've given up games after 30 minutes. There's enough good stuff out there that I don't need to be frustrated at all in my entertainment.

But I'm a picky bastard.